Diesels in the News

larsb

First of all, "banning" of either hybrid or diesel advocates is just censorship.

And second of all, I don't make random "negative comments" about diesels. Anything I say is backed up by data or science or personal experience.

If you guys want to say "only diesel fans who only post positive things about diesel issues are allowed in the Diesel forums" then they are going to get stale and BORING very quickly.

And I am a "clean diesel" fan. I don't know how many times I'm going to have to say this before you start believing it to be as true as it is, but I AM a definitely a HUGE fan of "BlueTec generation and above" clean diesel vehicles which have advanced exhaust filtering systems.

larsb

In response to this statement by you Gary:

"I still think your position is that it would be best to keep diesel cars off the road and legislate everyone into a gas hybrid."

Someone who held that opinion, which I DON'T, could be found to have stated in some forum somewhere "I wish all diesel cars were off the road !!"

I have never said that.
I have never said anything similar to that.
I have never insinuated anything similar to that.
I have never intimated any emotions similar to that.
I have never had that thought cross my mind one time.
I would never consider taking that opinion.
I would never entertain such a ridiculous thought.
I would never agree with a person who said that.
I would never advocate anything remotely similar to that.
I would never try to push (this even sounds funny just typing it) "hogging of the road" for HEVs.

And you are correct about one thing: We don't know about the cleanliness of 2007 and 2008 model year diesel cars running ULSD until the EPA tests them.

Once they are tested, we shall see.

blufz1

Did I mention that I always use Optima batteries in my bass boat so I don't have to get at them to monitor /fill water levels.

gagrice

And you are correct about one thing: We don't know about the cleanliness of 2007 and 2008 model year diesel cars running ULSD until the EPA tests them.

I would like to know how the 2001-2006 VW TDI stacks up. They were very close to most of the gas cars even burning very dirty diesel. I think they would be fine with ULSD. I know my 2005 Passat TDI using ULSD, did not smell as bad as my wife's Lexus or her Mazda. They both had clean smog checks.

Should we go back through the archived diesel vs hybrid threads to see your position on diesel cars. You have stated within the last few days that you do not think diesels should be allowed unless they are SULEV. Millions of cars and trucks will be sold this year in the USA that are not SULEV. Why discriminate against the only ones that cut GHG and fossil fuel usage?

You can buy any number of Toyota gas vehicles in CARB states that are only rated 3. In fact Toyota only builds a couple hybrids that are SULEV rated. Why should they be allowed and not a diesel that is not SULEV?

goodcrd

The wrangler for export only already have the 2.8 CRD available. The trans would be up to personal preference. I like the trans that comes with the CRD Liberty package. 5 sp auto with an alternate 2nd gear and lockup torque converter. Look for GM to offer VM diesel engines in some of their products over the next few years. Why do you think they dumped Isuzu for VM. VM makes a better and more economical product. GM sold off Isuzu and bought 50% of VM. VM produces some very good smaller diesel engines for cars and light trucks.

roland3

... Goodcrd, is yours un-detuned? I am sure you would have not been able to play her (spouse) on national TV if she was in the dealer(s) with some of those problems. Almost got her to buy '05 Diesel; she went ahead (against me) and bought the '06 Liberty V~6 gasser. She is in shock everytime we fill-up (never sees more than twenty MPG ); however she has been making much better meals since I have taken to treating her to fill-ups.

elias

I've got 5 or 10 family/friends/coworkers who ask me constantly when they can buy a new passenger diesel sedan in Mass-a-2-setts... Half of them would probably order/buy a honda accord diesel sight unseen, with no test drive. I probably would too.

elias

gagrice I bet you can get a Benz R CDI for invoice or less if you apply merely 4% of the tenacity and wisdom that you have exhibited in this forum. (i love you man!)
Note Benz R has more functionality and less cost than the new Jeep diesel. no 3rd row on Jeep. and R offers 7 seats optionally for 08.

ps - i saw a SMART CDI on I-80 on my return commute from SJ->Boston last week. I had not known it was possible to get those into USA, maybe the dude snuck it across the Rio Grande-I-O by attaching a couple of "floaties". It was slow & sure in middle lane of 3 lanes. I think it had a normal state registration. As I passed with 45 TDI mpg at 70 or 80 mph, I experienced a Pavlovian frothing response imagining the smart CDI's highway mpg at its 60 mph.

elias

As an engineer I cannot resist the question. I think we can answer it if we can define it properly, comparing existing/known/tested vehicles that are close to apples-to-apples comparison as possible. I think we'll have to wait a year or two for the data to be available for the newest diesel vehicles (or old ones) with ULSD however.
Until then and for pre-2007 vehicles with pre-ULSD fuel, I believe the answer to the question is affected more by the definition of a pollutant than by some of the specifics I mention above. And given current definitions by govt and Al Gore and Tree-Hugging-Old-Guys-with-Grey-Pontails, CO2 is considered a pollutant. With that definition, my seat of the pants estimate is that bluff-z's hypothetical diesel honda accord pollutes more than the equivalent gasser, for pre-2007 conditions/cars/fuel.
But if CO2 is not considered a pollutant, I bet the gasser pollutes more.
Personally I think that calling CO2 a pollutant is SOYLENT GREENIE ZPG NONSENSE.
CO2 = LIFE. Life is Good. Thank you.

jkinzel

Do you know one single person who wants a diesel passenger sedan and cannot get one?

Let’s look at what is offered in a diesel:

The biggest market is domestic pick-up trucks with 4-8 L diesel engines getting 18 to 22 MPG freeway. They also want a >$5000 premium for the diesel.
I have no use for, would not pay the premium for and would not put out the money for a big diesel pick-up. I get 20 MPG in the Explorer so no fuel savings.

MB offers the E320 that I would buy in a heart beat, but the $52,000 price tag is out of my mental reach. Can I afford it? Yes. Would I pay $50,000? Never. There is not a car worth that kind of money.
Call me “tight, cheap, penny pincher” etc. they all apply when it comes to my money.

VW Jetta: This I can mentally afford and have thought long and hard about a purchase. However, VW has the stigma of poor service and some quality issues so I have taken a wait and see stance in hopes someone like Honda would provide us with a diesel.

The Point: Only VW provides a diesel passenger car that most can afford and it has issues, valid or not.

We don’t know if there is a market for diesels because there are basically no affordable diesels to sell to the middle class, what’s left of us.

jkinzel

Are there hundreds of people e-mailing Toyota and Honda dealerships asking if they have any diesel models?

I have written to GM, Ford, Honda, Toyota and Subaru and asked if they intended to introduce a diesel passenger car in the US market?
All I got was the “deer in the headlights” response and a “Not at this time” answer.

Am I the only one to write? I don’t know, maybe others on this forum have.

ruking1

"Do you know one single person who wants a diesel passenger sedan and cannot get one? "

Since you are asking (what I perceive to be) an anecdotal question, I will give an anecdotal answer. The answer has been a resounding YES (for me) for at least the past 20 years, if indeed not closer to 41 years. A diesel offering combined with longer durability (in the segment that fulfills/fulfilled my transportation needs-SUV) would have provided longer term solutions to where I would not have bought a majority of the vehicles that I have bought during that period. Perhaps therein lies the real problem: I would have bought fewer vehicles!!!

goodcrd

Add to your post about the Jeep products which can not be sold here. The Liberty CRD which cost me in 05 $21,000 gets 26.5 mpgs combined. Can tow 5,000 lbs and go off road. The wrangler is also produced in the US with the same 2.8 VM CRD engine. But for export only!!!!! Thank the people like "I invented the internet (Al Gore)", So we are now taxing your air, land and water. What is next. When will they tell you who may have children. One volcano puts out how much "pollution"? And how many are there? I can understand local pollution controls and controlling pollution. But zero, you are reaching the point of dimishing returns. The oil companies and EPA watchdog groups need more revenue anyway. By the way remember God is in control. Ops. Am I allowed to say that or will Gore and his buddies, the gay groups have me put in jail? It's coming.

blufz1

Honda is going to be first to market with an economical 3.0 Ridgeline that has the torque of a small block V8 and will get 25-30 mpg. They will sell 40,000 in the 1st year. Then it's up up and away from there.

roland3

... Goodcrd, care to respond to #3675 ??? BTW, glad you sorted out your vehicle. Did you ever think that the manifold pressure sensor would never have pluged up in the first place if the intake was not being force fed hot, sooty exhaust gas. By forcing the Diesel industry to use the boondoggle EGR, CARB and EPA have not only went past diminishing returns, they have increased GHG, and have no data on how bad the EGR vehicles are a few years down the road.
... CARB, EPA, and Euro V, have made great accomplishments but they should back, just a little off, on the NOx standards, and realize they forced a gasoline engine bandaid on the Diesel industry.

gagrice

I looked at the "R" Mercedes and you are right they are not selling as MB hoped for. My wife is not fond of the sloping look. I will probably buy out of Oregon. I have two dealers that are wanting to deal on a CDI. The question is do I get the ML, GL or R. Each has its strengths and weaknesses. I do think the R320 CDI would get the best highway mileage.

I have not seen any Smarts down in SO Ca yet. What I see a lot of are VW EuroVans with TDI. All with Mexican plates. I saw two that had some kind of Mexican Navy insignia on the sides. No problem driving them in CA, just don't try to buy a new one here. I really like the looks of the Eurovan.

coontie57

I am on your side. I had one VW and that's one too many. Bring on the Honda. I like my big Chev 2500 Duramax.. Getting 30 + mpg on a diesel sedan would be great too.

I just set myself up for another sedan purchase in about 4 years. I hope something shows by then. I get 30-32 mpg on the road with my Buick Park Ave... they better come out with something I like or its gonna be hard to find another low mileage park ave in 4 years.

winter2

In a recent article, a VW Lupo powered by a 1.4L turbodiesel with the Bluemotion emissions system had fewer GHG emissions than the vaunted Toyota Prius. It is $5000 cheaper than the Prius to boot and gets better highway FE.

houdini1

That is a good post because I agree with it! I am not spending 90K on a car though I could easily afford to.

Also agree on the Honda VS VW. Give me that Honda diesel to go along with my LX 460 (pre-owned certified).

goodcrd

From years of experience with large diesel fleets, the problem with the boost sensor clogging up is the non use of USLD. Once we switched over to USLD at one depot the soot related problems almost disappeared. I remember walking in one of the vehicle storage buildings in the mornings with the old mechanical detriots running to pull out and you had to get down on your knees, look for the door, take a deep breath, then walk to the exit. That was 20 years ago. Today you can run all 20+ vehicles in one storage bay and see clearly while breathing and walk to the doors. 1000% better with the new emission and fuel management systems. But don't kill an industry by pushing to hard. Steady improvement is much easier to maintain then doing it too fast and maybe go out of business because the costs are too great.

hypnosis44

"As an engineer... Personally I think that calling CO2 a pollutant is SOYLENT GREENIE ZPG NONSENSE."
===========================================================
I suppose there are engineers somewhere who maintain that the earth is flat as well.

roland3

... Goodcrd, I am for the ultra low sulphur fuel, but I disagree that it solved the boost sensor problem. It may have helped but the hot, sooty exhaust forced fed into the intake tract is the main cause, in my opinion. BTW, the old style (2 cycle) Detroits were the worst (by far)of the big four ( Cat, Cummins, Mack & Detroit) in efficiency and emissions. The newer (4 cycle) Detroit is much cleaner and more efficient.

gagrice

I suppose there are engineers somewhere who maintain that the earth is flat as well.

I am sure there are many of them. Most working to stir up the Global Warming Hysteria. All part of the agenda to generate revenue for fringe political activists. Would you like to buy some carbon credits? I am overloaded with them. My citrus trees are sucking up CO2 faster than my vehicles can spew it out.

larsb

gary says, "You have stated within the last few days that you do not think diesels should be allowed unless they are SULEV."

Oh Reallly? I said that? Can you point to the post where I said that please?

larsb

gary says, "Should we go back through the archived diesel vs hybrid threads to see your position on diesel cars. "

Yes, let's do that. Actually, let me.......OK I just did.

The only bad things I ever said about diesels in that thread were said about "dirty diesel cars," which has been my point of contention all along.

The EPA and CARB were making mistakes by letting a lot of these dirty diesel cars and trucks into the country in previous years. The fact that they have come down with new, cleaner, harder-to-meet regulations is good for everyone.

EVERYONE, including you diesel lovers.

Now you will have "truly clean" diesels to defend and can feel better about promoting your strong diesel convictions.

ruking1

Actually I addressed it, given John1701a 's post # 3593. While my take is you did not say it DIRECTLY (nor did he) the overall text of your posts indicate that you would NOT disagree with it. So yes, it would be good if you would like to clarify whether you agree or disagree.

gagrice

You said over and over again they would have to be 50 state compatible. CARB wants them to be SULEV to get accepted here. In fact they will have to be cleaner than many SULEV vehicles to be acceptable.

You just do not see the big picture. CA government is afraid to have the percentage of diesels as the EU. Has nothing to do with emissions and EVERYTHING to do with tax revenue. The hybrids snuck in via Hollywood and Sacramento does not want to tick off their big contributors. They do not want to raise gas taxes for fear of the massive outcry. It is just easier to put roadblocks on diesel cars.

From Ahnold on down they want to sound green. They just do not want to lose revenue. The simple fact is the guy driving a PRIUS is not paying his share of the road tax. Multiply that by a few million high mileage cars and you are talking serious losses at the pump. If you think that taxation by the mile is not going to happen hold on to your wallet my friend. They just want to get it in place before an onslaught of diesel cars hit the roads.

If you are not negative on diesel cars, you have fooled many of us. Look back at these posts.

larsb, "Diesels in the News" #3650, 2 Aug 2007 2:38 pm

And this posted two days ago by you....

Truly clean diesel passenger cars are a good thing for the USA. They will curb fossil fuel usage (versus the comparable gasser) and if truly CLEAN, then they compete with SULEV gassers in the emissions department. But only if the PM is drastically reduced.

larsb, "Diesels in the News" #3660, 3 Aug 2007 6:15 am

Does that mean you would accept them if they were SULEV or would that be where you and others up the price of admission?

ruking1

Truly if folks have been following the so called "progress" on the demo legislation for 35 mpg, the demos have been characterized (in the media) as not forcing a "fight" by passage. ??????? A fight by whom: (minority) REPUBLICANS ????

NO, their own demo constituents??? AKA thrown out by their EARS!! PURE SPIN at the most blantant level!! With out a tax raise in the whole fuel tax structure, what does one think will happen when one the fuel mileage average goes from 21 mpg to 35 mpg? SULEV, among other terms is/are code for massive LOSS of revenue! This of course MEANS MASSIVE increase for transportation to the common man, which oyxmoronically are the same folks the demos say they represent. I also do not think it is lost on too many folks who work for a living and commute to jobs that multiple levels and layers of taxation is already going on. Takes NOT rocket science here.

On the other hand I would welcome (cheaper per mile driven) diesel cars. Indeed I have had app 100,000 miles of it already!

derrelhgreen

"I have two dealers that are wanting to deal on a CDI."

Do you know or can you find out if these two OR dealers will 'deal' on the E-320 CDI sedan as well? :confuse:

hypnosis44

The usual response: avoid the issue, place blame elsewhere, claim special exemption, and of course the ever handy conspiracy theory to hide behind - and always most fun for the reader is the self contradictory nature of the statements.

Tick tock, tick tock.

hypnosis44

"The hybrids snuck in via Hollywood and Sacramento does not want to tick off their big contributors."
============================================================
Fabulous stuff: It's a conspiracy except when it's not a conspiracy; and besides everyone is corrupt anyway, and besides that they are coming after us while we sleep!

There is an entertaining sitcom here somewhere if you could only get those Hollywood types to listen up!

ruking1

Yeah, but the "Lifestyles Of The Rich & Famous" and all the variants and spin offs like "CRIBS" give em away!!!

In the words of Mel Brooks: (who probably wasn't really acting when he said this...) ITS GOOD TO BE THE KING !!

stevecebu

Fabulous stuff: It's a conspiracy except when it's not a conspiracy; and besides everyone is corrupt anyway, and besides that they are coming after us while we sleep!

I don't know about it being a conspiracy it sounds more like politics to me. Politicians want two things most of all Lots of money and to be re-elected.
Of course they have to have money to stay in office and they also have budgets they need to make in order to stay in office for very long.
The less fuel is used the less revenue is generated, which is bad and might mean they won't make the budget and have to raise other taxes which will get them nearer to not getting re-elected.
I hardly think it a plot worthy of anything other than your basic "screw over the poor working sap so I can keep my cushy well paying elected position".
more like a SNL skit than a soap opera or sitcom. :shades:

jkinzel

I don’t see a lot of conspiracy involved with a government agency getting money through taxes, maybe a lot of BS. It’s what they do with it after they get it that bothers me. If all the road taxes were used properly and not for Pork Barrel projects, we might have a far better transportation system.

gagrice

Send emails to the Internet sales at the Mercedes dealers in Bend and Medford Oregon. Portland has a couple dealers willing to deal. They did not have anything I wanted. Good luck. The E320 CDI is a great car.

gagrice

Thank you gentlemen for setting our anti personal transportation poster on the right path to knowledge. I think if he had his way we would all be riding some stinking bus in a ghetto.

Speaking of buses. I just passed a school bus taking a load of children somewhere. It was going about 35 MPH up Interstate 8 in a 70 MPH zone with black smoke pouring out of the talipipe. It did not smell of diesel, I think it was an old gas bus in need of an overhaul. What are they doing with all the extra tax dollars they are taking in here over the last couple years? With home prices doubled, property tax has doubled.

roland3

... Larsb, new regs have crossed into counterproductivity. The NOx reg forces EGR, that decreases MPG (read HC = GHG ), and has quite a bit of undocumented (by CARB & EPA) problems down the road, wears out engines sooner, causing how much pollution ??? I agree with the particulate trap and one cat.
... The NOx reg also scares the Diesel manufacturers away from advances in efficiency.

gagrice

NoX is in the air from aircraft more than cars. A San Diego group wanting to move a local marine airfield to a better location have documentation showing that the latest fighter planes put out 4 times the NoX of the last generation.

While CARB worries about the miniscule NoX generated by cars, the aircraft flying overhead are dumping large amounts of the stuff over the entire nation.

How many articles of asthma problems caused by NoX, blame jet aircraft? It is always easier to put the blame on the little guy and let the big dog do his thing.

ruking1

You probably know this also, but for our diesels (gassers also) the ratings with (heavy) mititgation is commonly stated @ sea level. As the altitude increases, pollutants increase. So with aircraft at much much higher altitudes than cars are capable of going and wiht TOTAL unmitigation for aircraft, the effects of NoX are EXPOTENTIALLY increased. Indeed if you have to point to the causes for the so called hole in the ozone layer it is the unmitigated affects/effects from aircraft.

Indeed the output from MITIGATED passenger diesels are both statistically miniscule and essentially undetectable and unmeasurable. Whatever increase that is so called FEARED is not even close to being statisically significant! To even call it a drop in the bucket is wildly overstating the effects of the drop. It is closer to atomization to a double olympic sized pool.

larsb

Surely, you must have posted the wrong post number in your attempt to indicate my anti-dieselism. Post 3650 says nothing negative at all about diesels. It said that an alternative view needs to be present to avoid turning this forum into a robotic diesel lovefest.

My comment about the SULEV diesels means only what I said - there is no "hidden meaning" anywhere. All I said was that for diesels to be "truly clean" in my own personal definition of "truly clean," then they need to be rated as SULEV or better.

Here is a Diesel News article to start out the week on the right foot:

Nissan's first clean diesel vehicle next year

ruking1

The consequences of your latest posts indicate what has been said all along! Passenger car diesel emissions are FAR FAR FAR less than a drop in the bucket as compared to gassers!! Indeed gassers have been and will remain gross polluters in comparison.

larsb

Well, there is nothing which can be done to reduce the number of gassers on the road other than replacing them with:

1. HEVs
2. Truly Clean diesel cars

#1 is well underway. I hear #2 is "on the way" and I hope that's true.

jkinzel

Yippee, the world gets another high mileage diesel passenger car and what do we get? Oh ya, an empty promise and a poke in the eye with a sharp stick.

gagrice

I found post 3650 negative and anti-diesel. If I went to the hybrid board and accused the pro-hybrid posters of being a bunch of rah rah losers you would find that offensive.

SULEV is a contrived emissions standard that is designed to accept many pollutant levels put out by gas cars and while blocking pollutants that may be higher in a diesel car. Why is CO the real killer allowed to be much higher coming from a gas engine.

The reason CA has those fancy sealing gas pumps is due to all the dangerous chemicals the person pumping will inhale. They do not need that with diesel pumps as it may smell funny, it is not toxic as is gas fumes.

larsb

I didn't call anyone a bunch of "rah rah losers" at all. Where do you get such interpretations?

What I said was, trying to use words now that cannot be mistranslated, "if someone is not here to provide an alternative to the common viewpoint and to stimulate research and conversation, then there will be nothing to be learned here from merely reading people saying the same thing over and over."

And that's true of ANY forum on this website. People on the car forums talk about things they both like and dislike about the cars they drive, and that stimulates conversation. If you have a board where everyone always just says nice things about a car, then that gets boring fast.

We on this forum should be allowed and ENCOURAGED to talk about things we like and dislike about diesel cars and diesel technology.

Here's what happens when I post something: you guys go start trying to find information to disprove it. In doing so, you uncover OTHER diesel news items which you post and which provide education for some readers and that starts another topic, leads to new posts, and gets more attention for this forum. The more posts, the happier the Edmunds people get. It's a WIN/WIN/WIN !!! LOL

ruking1

Indeed, references to so called "dirty diesels" does a disservice to the (hopefully) GROWING diesel passenger vehicle fleet! This especially becomes more true when it has been established, that so call "dirty diesel" has the app emissions footprint of a Toyota Camry/Honda Accord to a little less.!!! When you add in 20-40% better fuel mileage, this ADVANTAGE goes a longer way in solving the fuel demand than buying a gasser Toyota Camry/Honda Accord! Add to that the fact that #diesel is a pathway to ALTERNATIVE FUEL with a plethora of etc, etc, advantages; calling it dirty diesel becomes pejorative.

larsb

I only call vehicles "dirty diesels" when they deserve it.

It's not an insult to clean diesel vehicles, nor an insult to drivers of those vehicles, nor an insult to diesel lovers. It's merely used when appropriate as an accurate description.

There are "dirty gassers" too. Ask Gary, and he'll tell you there are "dirty HEVs" too.....LOL

hypnosis44

"While CARB worries about the minuscule NoX generated by cars, the aircraft flying overhead are dumping large amounts of the stuff over the entire nation."
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Let me see now.... Last I heard California was not involved in managing US defense or the Defense Department. Maybe a letter to big Bush will correct the problem? Until then we can still mind our own garden.

hypnosis44

"It's not an insult to clean diesel vehicles...."
==========================================================
We have all been caught in the corporate word game. There are NO clean vehicles - there are only those that are less dirty than other gas, diesel, electric, ad infinitum vehicles. All of them pollute. Clean diesel (or any other vehicle) is like Jumbo Shrimp.

ruking1

Yes, we do that with items like MTBE: yes/no, yes/no, no yes? NO. Still have to pay through the nose for NOT putting it in the fuel! Live with THE highest in the nations' fuel prices and 67 or so cities AKA LOZ AN GELL LEEZZ. Don't forget starting with the 2005 model year, banning those very diesel cars that actually GET better fuel mileage!! Don't forget serving up LSD when ULSD will do!