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So for EXAMPLES, since there are feelings of defensiveness, are 1. the 3000 ppm bunker oil being burnt by the (WALLY MART etc etc) logistic delivery ships. 2. air traffic (jet fuel) On this issue it is being said it takes time (to change this)!!!????
YET on the other hand, there is an expectation to put a passenger vehicle diesel which burns (15 ppm and less) on the market that meet sulev standards!!! Dont meet it? Don't put it on the market till it does!!! Did we apply the same to gassers over say the last 40 years? Be that as it may, upwards of 99% of GASSER (which currently burn 30 ppm which is 2x as much as #2 diesel) passenger vehicle fleet does not and will not meet this sulev standard!!!! Current diesel offerings burn as clean as the green Honda Accord/Toyota Camry, as well as burn app 30% less fuel.
NOBODY wants to be stuck backing the wrong economic and technological horse!!! An easy example is the last plug in electric car offering! Now if it had a 300 mile or so target range...!!! WOO HOO! but look out! It will present MANY MANY Many unintended issues!! Perhaps that was the reason it was summarily pulled, despite massive capitalization losses.
The good news and bad news is Hybrids STILL use unleaded fuel! How are you not going to use (less to no) unleaded fuel by using unleaded fuel!!?? While I do not subscribe to the addiction theory, nonetheless, that is like getting a cocaine addict off cocaine by letting him use less cocaine. Now this might work in Hollywood (during a commercial break), but real life is far far far different!!??
It is both mathematically and practically IMPOSSIBLE to NOT use energy!!! This is the underlying assumption that the environmental folks totally ignore. Ever ask an environmental type the last time they flew in a plane! Did they ever take a half full train?? Sure it is also possible to own the means of some power generation production..... but this might be at an exponentially increased cost.
If there were 250,000 new diesel sedans and SUVs sold every year, diesels would also be saving a lot of fuel over their gasoline-only counterparts, as are hybrids.
Nothing wrong with saving fuel. Or is there? (There's Not!)
PS. There is nothing on the immediate horizon which will get us "QUICKLY" out of our fossil fuel addiction. Moving SLOWLY in the right direction is better than nothing, EH?
Come on guy!
..."PS. There is nothing on the immediate horizon which will get us "QUICKLY" out of our fossil fuel addiction. Moving SLOWLY in the right direction is better than nothing, EH?"...
Might be one reason why I use diesel? Might be another reason why they want to choke off the conversion to diesel so much!?
Using the "RAPID" growth of SUV's as a model; (Malthusian GROWTH RATES!)(235.4 M passenger vehicle fleet)
Makes watching paint dry a blood and adrenaline sport!!
Biggest word in there is IF.
They weren't. Therefore the savings are what they are, and they are nothing to sneeze at.
Like I said - a slow move to fuel savings is better than no move at all.
If you can convince Honda, Toyota, Ford, and GM to sell 250,000 diesel passenger sedans per year in the USA, then go for it. No one else can seem to do so.
..."Might be another reason why they want to choke off the conversion to diesel so much!?
I know the tense is off here, so you can substitue it with old, past, present and future tenses!!!
For example in CA state, to NOT burn ULSD, I would have to intentionally break the law, i.e., burn red dye diesel on road and NOT pay the appropriate taxation. This, of course is a felony.
Do I think the etc., oem's want a piece of the pie!?? Yes and no, again, i.e., all of the above have been selling diesels (world wide markets), AND USA 50 state legal diesels for MANY years! I think it is going in the direction of diesel options in (USA markets) models the oems are willing to take a risk on.
Who are these mysterious "they" people?
No one group of persons has the control of diesel passenger cars in their power.
If anyone, the BUYING PUBLIC has the most control.
There have diesel passenger cars available for new in almost the whole USA for YEARS now. Even in the CARB states you can buy them used. The used market BOOMS for the SMALL number of buyers there are.
Has there been a MASSIVE CRUSH of desirous buyers? Absolutely NOT.
Believe me my amigo and you know this to be 100% true:
If the buying public was requesting vast numbers of diesel passenger sedans from multiple automakers (other than just MB and VW) then the supply would be provided.
Car companies are in the business to make money. If they see a market, they are going to throw cars at it.
There------Is-------Not--------A--------Strong-------Market----
--For-------Diesel------Passenger-------Cars--------In---
----The-------USA.
THAT'S the reason they are not all over the place. Not because of exhaust regulations.
What the heck are you talking about? Car and Driver already did that comparison... Here it is...
link title
TagMan
--For-------Diesel------Passenger-------Cars--------In---
----The-------USA.
Total lie! Not the truth!
You don't know what you are you talking about!
The J.D. Power study that was just released in July showed a huge increase in the demand for diesels... in fact so much so that the study suggests that diesels could eventually outsell hybrids!
TagMan
You and I have been following and contributing to this (diesel and related) and other threads for a long while, peruse past posts if you REALLY dont know, for I perceive this to be a strictly rhetorical question. (aka, pot stirring)
We were talking about comparing the
emissions
data. Not a road test.
Exhaust data.
TagMan
Please provide a link to support your comment "The J.D. Power study that was just released in July showed a huge demand for diesels". These two links do not.
http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.aspx?ID=2007109
http://www.jdpower.com/articles/article.aspx?ID=119
The closest Powers came was to mention "consumer consideration for purchasing clean diesel vehicles"
Um, No. (well, maybe someone in a CARB state who wants a NEW one has to look elsewhere - but they CAN buy one.)
Are there hundreds of people e-mailing Toyota and Honda dealerships asking if they have any diesel models?
Um, No, Again.
Are diesel passenger cars increasing at the sales rate of other hot fuel efficient technologies?
Um, No, Once Again.
The Jetta diesel, at the height of the 2005 Katrina fuel woes, topped out at about 20% of the overall Jetta sales. Does that indicate a STRONG MARKET for the diesel version?
Um, No, Deja Vu All Over Again.
Although the demand is not so high right now, the future looks brighter for diesel cars in the USA. Diesel demand will go up, and in fact by 2010 is expected to exceed US sales versus hybrids, 5.0 percent for diesels versus 4.6 percent for HEVs.
But for now, August 2007? No huge demand. Sorry...
quote-
Consumers are paying more money for the diesel option of a used vehicle than what that option originally cost new, according to a recent AutoWeek article. For example, the cost of the diesel option for the 2005 Mercedes E320 CDI sedan was $1,000, but the cost of this option rose to $2,500, according to Black Book used-vehicle price guide reports. The article notes that the reason for this lies in the fact that consumers want fullsize car and trucks with better fuel economy. In fact, consumers will buy over half a million diesel vehicles this year, and that number will double by 2011, according to the article. A stronger resale value for diesels signal consumers’ acceptance for diesels, which is giving rise to the OEMS bringing out more diesel cars and light trucks to the U.S. market in 2010. According to the Black Book data nearly every diesel-engine option is selling for more used than it did new, and the percentages below show the degree to this is occurring today:-end
Diesels require no tax incentive, diesels require no HOV sticker to create demand. Unlike some other powertrain options.
Due to non-existent demand for diesels the price of used diesels has fallen through the floor and diesels are worthless........ :sick: ......I could almost believe that if I believed some earlier posts such as "larsb But for now, August 2007? No huge demand. Sorry... ".
Just as you pointed out in your last post. No one has posted the actual emissions comparisons between two comparable cars, one with gas and one with diesel. The EU seems to be happy with diesel cars. We are considered the laggards of the world where global warming is concerned.
I am with ruking all the way. If there was an interest in cutting the use of fossil fuel in this nation as there is in the EU, we would be sitting on a lot larger percentage of diesel cars. I think the biggest difference is CHEAP GAS. It is being kept cheap to avoid a mass exodus to diesel cars.
Do you have a link that confirms that the automakers are not receiving requests for diesels?
My recollection is that the 2006 Jetta TDI was 40% of sales. Without any incentives. Dealers in Oregon I contacted were sold out or wanting a Premium for any they had.
At least 1/3rd of the car buying public has no access to diesel cars. If given the option, I dare say most would opt for a 25% to 43% increase in mileage.
Pros-
The campaign’s underlying message is that a diesel car is the best option to help to save the planet, unless you can afford a hybrid. A diesel car will typically travel at least 20 per cent farther for the same amount of fuel as a similar-sized petrol car.
The car with the lowest carbon dioxide emissions is the VW Polo Blue-Motion. It emits 99g of CO2 per kilometre, just under the 100g/km cut-off point for the zero road-tax rating.
Cons-
But the Energy Saving Trust said that diesels still caused more air pollution than petrol cars, despite the introduction of particulate filters. There was also a limit to how much diesel could be extracted from a barrel of crude oil without a big increase in the energy consumed in the refining process.
There are those that believe that hybrids and diesels will increase fuel usage. People can afford to travel and drive more.
The demand right now is in fact high... it's the selection of models to choose from that is low. Therefore the realization of that demand is not possible yet, but it is there. As the model selection increases, the sales numbers will proportionally increase... to the likely point of exceeding hybrid vehicles within three short years!
TagMan
But Robinet predicts Honda will enjoy success with its upcoming 4-cyl. diesel engine, due in 2009, because the powerplant doesn't require a urea exhaust aftertreatment system that requires periodic dealer visits, as does Mercedes-Benz's Bluetech.
“There's no consumer interface with the diesel other than changing the oil and putting fuel in it,” he says. “We joke about it, but Honda thinks it builds cars just so it can put its engines in them. Honda will always be a leader in powertrain.”
-end
Bring on the diesel Honda, bring it on!
No, I just have the evidence on Google News and this forum. If that were happening, someone around here would have posted the link. In this world of "instant information," it's easy to see if something is happening or not - search Google News. If someone is writing a story about it, then it's happening.
I'm not saying diesel demand is nil to zero. Not at all. Don't twist my words.
I'm saying that the reason we don't have massive diesel fleets like Europe does is that the people here in the USA aren't hopping mad about not having diesel options. They buy what the dealers have.
In Europe, they ALSO buy what the dealers have. The only diff is that they have diesels on the lot and Joe Car Dealership USA does not.
Can folks buy what the dealer logistics don't have!! Can I order a diesel Corvette!? (or whatever, you posted a while back about the twin turbo sub 4 second diesel that gets 48 mpg on race day with 70 mpg at 65 mph!) Please! The above type of quotes do NOT reflect credible concepts!!!
There is no evidence that the USA car buyer is clamoring for more diesel passenger cars.
If I'm wrong, show me evidence.
Fossil fuel usage in Europe has not gone down, remember East Europe is coming out of many decades with much fewer car-buyers, but they are certainly selling the US a lot of un-needed gas and keeping the diesel. The European mileage efficiency is far higher than ours in the US.
No one can say whether the public is chomping at the bit for diesels without some more research.
No manufacturer has had any incentive to get thoroughly invested in the passenger diesel business for the following, well documented, reasons:
Uncertainty about EPA regulations on ULSD- now laid to rest as ULSD is mandated for the lower 48 with Alaska a couple of years behind.
Uncertainty about CARB regs. With the CARB states, major car-buying markets, requiring different levels of emissions than the non-CARB states, the manufacturers opted to make only for the lesser-regulated states. Now CARB is being used as the standard for all states and Europe (THE diesel market currently) also tightening the regs to California-like levels, the manufacturers are incented to produce diesels that can be sold (new) in the entire country.
Until 50-state legal passenger diesels are available we will not know the publics reaction.
FWIW, I'm for anything that improves mileage.
Most of my driving is long-distance (100+ mile days) and rarely urban. Diesels make the most sense to me for that reason. Plus I want to drive a car that has a full size trunk, passenger compartment and doesn't try to make a statement on my behalf.
If this forum was all about a bunch of people posting
"Oh, diesel is so great, I just love to sit on my porch and sniff it all night with a Cold Beer"
then all this board would be is a bunch of people saying,
"Me Too !! Diesel Rocks !!!" "Me Too !! Diesel Rocks !!!" "Me Too !! Diesel Rocks !!!" "Me Too !! Diesel Rocks !!!" "Me Too !! Diesel Rocks !!!" "Me Too !! Diesel Rocks !!!" "Me Too !! Diesel Rocks !!!" "Me Too !! Diesel Rocks !!!" "Me Too !! Diesel Rocks !!!" "Me Too !! Diesel Rocks !!!" "Me Too !! Diesel Rocks !!!" "Me Too !! Diesel Rocks !!!"
You see how boring that would get, FAST? LOL
quote-
The appeal of a diesel is economy, and the 300C CRD has plenty to offer: in the European mileage ratings, it returns 26 m.p.g in town and 43 on the highway, compared with 18/34 for its twin powered by a 3.5-liter gas V-6. (The American version is rated 19/27 on the E.P.A.’s test.)
That’s not bad, considering the diesel produces nearly as much torque as the 5.7-liter Hemi V-8. At the time I drove it, diesel fuel was selling for $2.99 a gallon in New Jersey, about a nickel less than midgrade gas and 30 cents cheaper than premium.
-end
It would never sell in the US! :P
quote-
Using that as a baseline, then the fuel economy of the average US new car is 32% worse than that of Europe. Or, to put it the other way, European passenger car fuel economy is 47% better than that of the US.-end
Note- This post is in response to the edited (deleted) post of larsb which no longer exists in it's original form.
Why do people want to push the MB 320 cdi? I wouldn't trade it even for my 05 Passat TDI. We just turned 60,000 miles and I will keep it until I can get another diesel better than I have now. I'm sold on deisels. Take one to the mountains a few times and you might understand why?
Since the number of Americans that would consider a diesel has doubled in just this last year, to one fourth of all buyers, then if the diesel models were available, one fourth of buyers would take the opportunity to evaluate them... and many would buy them... but the models aren't really here yet... they can't be instantly produced. But the manufacturers have their game plans already in place.
You may not see the demand, but that doesn't mean it's not there. Heck, even the manufacturers have already recognized that there is enough factual and significant demand, or they wouldn't be gearing up and going through the expense to escalate US distribution of diesel vehicles over the next immediate years. That's plenty of evidence, whether you see it or not. I sure do.
TagMan
I am not thrilled that they have gone overboard making diesels as complex as gas vehicles. An example is the Jeep Liberty CRD. It has a great record for reliability in the EU. Yet we get it and add all kinds of crap like EGR and make it unreliable. It is the American way to change things just for the sake of change. My motto throughout my career was "if it ain't broke don't mess with it".
My dream car:
5-Passenger Diesel/Electric hybrid with 70 MPG EPA and under $35,000.
Truly clean diesel passenger cars are a good thing for the USA. They will curb fossil fuel usage (versus the comparable gasser) and if truly CLEAN, then they compete with SULEV gassers in the emissions department. But only if the PM is drastically reduced.
I am irritated that the Euro buyers get so many great diesel versions of gassers which are available here. The list is VERY long and annoying. My belief is that the car buyers just don't believe the cars will sell here. You know they'd want them here to help them meet their CAFE MPG requirements with the fuel efficiency boost.
So there is my stance on clean diesel cars.
My stance on dirty diesels has been documented. LOL
Cars will only get more complicated.
Start accepting it and you can save yourself some heartburn in your retirement years.
Stress is worse for one the older one gets - lighten up on some stuff !!! LOL
For me, it is not necessarily simplicity, although that is my preference, it is proven and stable technology.
For instance, Mercedes used to make rock-solid, high quality cars with an emphasis on over-engineering the entire vehicle. Now they focus on having gizmos and gadgets and automating every function and reliability has plummeted.
I prefer an older technology that is as close to fail-safe as you can get than a snazzy new gadget that fails within a couple of years.
larsb - Please allow me to re-word that, from my personal perspective.
Clean diesel passenger cars are a good thing for the USA.
Truly (less PM) clean diesel passenger cars would be an even better thing for the USA.
Can you live with THAT?
TagMan
clean
versus
truly clean
??
If you mean that the ones on our shores NOW are "clean" and the upcoming BlueTec generation of cars are classified as "truly clean," then I agree with only the second part.
I see and smell diesel exhaust every day on my commute to work; so I know that at least in my section of Phoenix Arizona, the current diesels here now are not in the "truly clean" category.
I reserve that classification for the upcoming BlueTec generation of cars.
But in general, I agree with your statement that "the cleaner the better" applies.
==========================================================
Although this conclusion is faulty on many levels, what stands out is "Simple is better...." If the statement is true then walking, biking and other alternatives are far simpler and would be the logical choice. But it is very hard to break the corporate mantra that defies all logic until it hits the wall that is looming just ahead.
I still think your position is that it would be best to keep diesel cars off the road and legislate everyone into a gas hybrid. I watch you in other threads and your have a very strong bias. Probably no stronger than mine against complex hybrid technology. When they get a decent storage system I will be first in line for a pure EV. No complex PHEVs for me.
We still do not know if the current diesel cars on the road today are any less clean than most of the gassers. If the diesel is ULSD. I tend to think if it was tested the diesel would be Overall cleaner and far less GHG.