Diesels in the News

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Comments

  • jimlockeyjimlockey Member Posts: 265
    Winter2 you don't know what you are talking about.

    Congress is never wrong. LOL
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    Funny!

    Last night I saw a new commercial on TV from GM. Corn kernals were being sprinkled on a road and flex fuel vehicles were miraculously growing out of them. How wrong can you get? Totally stupid direction to go in. Costs more to make a gallon of ethanol from corn than to refine a gallon of oil. It is even worse considering how cheap it is to make biodiesel from waste vegatable oil or animal tallow.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Getting revved on diesels

    quote-
    Experts credit the allure of new, cleaner diesel engines — which are expected to meet even California's strict air quality standards — as well as the prospect of getting better fuel mileage without sacrificing performance.

    Also playing a role: disappointment with the real-world fuel economy of hybrids, which often fell well short of government mileage estimates.

    Under the government's old rating system, for example, the estimated fuel economy for Toyota's hot-selling Prius was 55 miles per gallon in combined city and highway driving. The new mileage estimate, based on tests designed to more closely match actual driving conditions, is 46 mpg.

    "The mpg expectations for hybrids were totally out of whack," said Mike Marshall of Westlake Village-based J.D. Power. "While hybrid sales are steadily increasing, they continue to face competition for market share" from other alternative powertrains.

    Carmakers, meanwhile, have been working hard to shed the negative image many Americans have of diesel engines dating back to the 1970s and '80s.

    The auto companies "learned their lessons from the mistakes they made in the past," said Paul Lacy of consulting firm Global Insight. "They're trying to let people know that the diesels of today are not the noisy, smelly, underperforming engines of the past here in the United States."
    -end
  • kreuzerkreuzer Member Posts: 131
    further information!
    Another question: I'm not sure about is what will be used for the engine oil in the new deisels? Will we still use the conventional oils used today for this purpose? If so, will we still be dependent on oil from the far East then? Just thought I'd ask! :confuse:
  • hypnosis44hypnosis44 Member Posts: 483
    "...how cheap it is to make biodiesel from waste vegetable oil or animal tallow."

    Just another free lunch idea. There is no "waste" available once the demand stream ramps up and absorbs the items mentioned. All demand affects supply and the costs and availability of resources used to produce that supply. in crease the demand for "waste" from zero to absolute and the price and production responds.

    Our auto dependency remains the problem, not whether we starve children to run them by using resources to produce fuel.

    No amount of dancing around the issue will change it.

    And the band played on!
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    The answer involves googling for the diesel motor oil standards. Many of the diesel from Europe have specifications that synthetic oils happen to be able to meet. For example VW 507.00(?) has a possible max life of 30,000 miles OCI. :) This of course is a far cry from the 3/5/7.5k mile OCI's. :) But in truth ever since the more widespread availability of ULSD, I already run 20,000-25,000 mile OCI's with an oil that does not meet the VW 507.00 specifications. :)
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Rock on! Even the most flaming so called environmentalists did NOT buy or lease the electric offerings in any economically sustainable volume and percentage. A lot of oems offered them Ford Ranger, Toyota RAV 4, Honda Civic, to name a few. Indeed the so called mandatory 2/3% of model year MANDATORY volume and percentage legislation did not pass legislative muster (being politically correct, as it failed miserably):( :)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Our auto dependency remains the problem, not whether we starve children to run them by using resources to produce fuel.

    We will not see any significant move from the automobile until our leaders set the example. None are doing that so why should anyone else?

    The truth is we could cut our use of oil significantly by using diesel. When the cooking oil runs out we flood all the wasted desert land, and use algae for diesel.
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    I have read the article and they point an interesting negative in CA for the diesel. Diesel fuel costs a few pennies more than regular gas. Big whoop! Considering that you 25 - 40 percent more miles per gallon with a diesel, that tidbit will actually stop some people from buying a diesel powered vehicle. What the article fails to state that even though diesel fuel costs a touch more, it is still cheaper to run per mile and puts out fewer GHG to boot. Well balanced journalism.

    Filled my Jeep Liberty CRD today. ULSD 2.799, ULR gas was 2.919.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I wonder out loud why the article left out or did not acknowledge the reality that one reason why gasoline AND diesel costs more due to the fact they almost have become "designer" blends!!?? One example is the cost of unleaded fuels cost more due to the MTBE that we are now NOT getting but still paying ??? Indeed I have read in passing there are upwards of 27 blends!!?? :(

    NO, LA #2 diesel 2.74 to 2.85 http://www.neworleansgasprices.com/index.aspx?fuel=D

    NO, LA ULR 2.68 to 2.75

    SF, CA #2 diesel 3.09 to 3.29
    http://www.sanfrangasprices.com/index.aspx?fuel=D

    SF, CA ULR 3.11 to 3.19

    Both cities have refineries within a 50 mile radius :)
  • kreuzerkreuzer Member Posts: 131
    the synthetic blends are not derived from fossil fuel? I'm not clear on this. Can synthetic oils be used on my current gas burner even if I've never used these on my car before? Sorry about all the questions... :D
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    No!

    MANY of the so called "synthetic" and synthetic blends ARE derived from fossil fuels.

    Many are hydrocracked and now meet the "synthetic" defintions in an arbitration settlement. This settlement w in effect granded a so called NON synthetic but hydrocracked group III product, the right to be called synthetic and/or synthetic blends. :(

    So the so called old school definition of SYNTHETIC (for my .02 cents) is a PAO IV.

    In regard to your question: ..."Can synthetic oils be used on my current gas burner even if I've never used these on my car before?"... The answer is a conditional yes as contained in the specifications.
  • ggurr54ggurr54 Member Posts: 30
    Who is disappointed with their real mpg for their hybrids? No my Prius does not get 61 mpg in the city. It consistently gets 51. I am more than happy with this. To say that if only given a chance diesels are going to displacement the hybrid market is pure fancy at best and delusional at worst. As of today, not perhaps somewhere down the line but today where is the proven alternative both economically and environmently to the hybrid.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Because this is neither a hybrid or hybrid vs diesel thread, (hybrid vs diesel thread has since been long archived) the diesel is a proven alternative both economically and environmentally to the hybrid. Toyota itself has documented the both the higher environmental and of course dictate somewhat the economic costs.

    Is there a place for hybrids? Absolutely. As this so called crisis gets longer in the tooth, my swag is the diesel will far exceed the hybrid, if the European model (50% diesel population and growing) is any predictor.

    Indeed almost all parts of the equation agree, the price of gasoline has been and will continue to go up. In Europe the price is 6/7 US per gal of unleaded regular. :( So a 25-40% mpg advantage truly goes 25-40% toward that amount (MINIMUM) LESS fuel consumption.
  • blufz1blufz1 Member Posts: 2,045
    Simple is better. That's why diesel will far out pace hybrids.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    The technology of cleaner diesel has never been at issue. What has been and still is at issue are the economic consequences. Look how fast the technology has come relative to the 35 plus years, leaded to unleaded regular has taken. The technology change has been snails pace for regular gasoline vs exponentially faster for diesel. Indeed unleaded regular has 2x more sulfur than ULSD (30 plus ppm vs 15 ppm. Bio diesel has very close to ZERO ppm.
  • roland3roland3 Member Posts: 431
    ... Gagrice, the 2008 (2007 intro ?) Ford 6.4 is Ford's first common rail. It has twin turbos, a cat, a particulate trap, is much quieter, has better low end torque, and more efficient than previous Powerstrokes. The injection is capable of five pulses per firing cycle, how all that non noise exists.
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    Ruking is correct. You can use synthetic oil in the engine of your vehicle with the proviso you have performed good maintenance up to this point, namely regular oil changes..

    Some synthetic oils are dervived from petroleum while others are plant based.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I had been told Ford was working on a new diesel to replace the old PS. Hope it turns out to be a good one. Still way more than I have need for. Cut it in half and I would go for it.
  • roland3roland3 Member Posts: 431
    ... Yes, it looks like a common rail world. Does anyone know if this system (cr) will appear in engines over ten liters ???
  • kreuzerkreuzer Member Posts: 131
    thanks for the clarification on the synthetic oil blends. Has there been any studies to show if the plant derived synthetic oils provide as much or better protection for the engine than does the petro derived? How do you defer between plant derived and petro derived oil - - will it be indicated on the label? Sorry for all the questions, but I'm really learning a lot from this forum! :)
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    From the thread and consumers point of view, that might lead into an entirely different topic. So I would point you in the direction of googling Chevron, and Mobil web sites.
  • fenris2fenris2 Member Posts: 31
    Used oil is a commodity like anything else, although individuals sure can come accross it cheaply if they wish to put up with the collections and processing. ;-P Not so cheaply if they have to follow all the rules that normal renderers do though...

    Algae biodiesel is still missing quite a few things for wide scale use. If/when we get it too work. Cool. Until then it is still sadly one of those 'right around the corner' technologies we always hear about.

    Incidentally, 'flood the desert' does not work. You need closed systems to have any shot at harvesting high percentage lipid bearing algae... Very few places on earth are suitable for an open system because the faster breeding algae contaminate it, and then out compete with the good stuff you want to grow.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Mean while we are saving a lot on imported fuel by using regular diesel, no? I am looking for alternatives that have a positive impact. Not ones that hide behind government pork barrel projects. We have let the EU get so far ahead of us they are selling excess gasoline to us for our gas guzzling vehicles.
  • roland3roland3 Member Posts: 431
    ... Kreuzer, I am just not looking for any bio-lubricating engine oil. The premium full synthetics are really mighty good. If anything I want it is a full synthetic that can stand up to adiabatic engine temps. The sixty to a hundred dollar quart turbine/jet oil might be fairly close. Otherwise I will probably just accept the gradual evolution we have in this area, and filter it down to one micron and have a little better MPG and keep it in my engine for a good while, and sometimes take it right out of my crankase and pour it right into my fuel tank, rarely more than five percent of total fuel. BTW, don't do this with gasoline engine drain oil, they make acids, Diesels do not.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Mazda3 diesel review

    Wondering why FOMOCO is not selling passenger diesels in North America. Why not channel them thru Mazda? Zoom Zoom Zoom with 57mpg :)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Sounds like a great little car....

    because of its ultra-short gearing and gobs of torque. In European fuel economy testing, it returns 39 mpg city, 57 mpg highway. (The 2.0-liter gas engine that we get in the U.S. returns 22 / 37 on that same test.)

    That is a whopping 39% better mileage for the diesel. And he loved driving it.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Aren't diesels slow?

    How about this for an answer: I lost a race in the new 414-hp, V-8 M3 last week to a diesel. I pulled up to a red light next to my photographer's six-cylinder, automatic-transmission 530d station wagon. When the light turned green, I dumped the clutch from 2000 rpm and floored it. And the automatic diesel station wagon dusted my M3 off the line. I didn't catch up until 60 mph.

    That is fast enough for me.
  • stevecebustevecebu Member Posts: 493
    Wondering why FOMOCO is not selling passenger diesels in North America. Why not channel them thru Mazda? Zoom Zoom Zoom with 57mpg

    Politics, pretty hard to convince Congress that you can't have a 35mpg passenger fleet by 2020 was it? If all the cars get 50+ mpg on the highway. ;)
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Pretty transparent, isn't it? As I have been saying: we do not need "35mpg passenger fleet by 2020" legislation, we just need cars that ACTUALLY get 35 mpg, (and above).... like the diesel zoom zoom zoom! :)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I like the idea of the BMW 530D wagon myself. Not that I would want to race every Tom, Dick and Harry with a fast car. I am like most people that give a modern diesel a go. They are so much nicer to drive. None of that whiney 6000 RPM crap to get them moving. Smoooooth strong torque from just above an idle to 3000 RPM, is what I want. Makes for an engine with longevity and saves fuel while cutting that awful GHG.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I am with you! My inclination right now runs to the BWW 330D with a 6 speed manual (platform just below the 5 series) Running DIESEL cars like this on some of our great country's roads, i.e. scenery, can be an absolute joy. Diesels are truly adaptive to our roads.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,788
    According to Autoweek, a mercedes diesel that cost $1k more than the gasser at purchase time is currently commanding about $2500 more at resale. Guess that squashes any talk about having to drive X miles to make your money back.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Also when there is a will there is a way. If a car (in a model line) can be special ordered or comes in different trim models, the real so called diesel extra cost over a gasser CAN easily be mitigated.

    Also this is verifiable on the used car section of www.edmunds.com, but there is up to a 4,600 premium over the 2003 VW Jetta 2.0 and/or 1.8T with the TDI. On a $18,000 (new) car that works out to 25.55556%. Based on the resale values comparisons, a MUCH greater percentage!
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,788
    what i think is funny is that i've read several very recent long-term reviews of the e320cdi and all of them state you need to drive 40k miles to get your money back. gotta love the lack of forward thinking on the part of "journalists."

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Well I guess from an up front point of view and a 100% total loss/use assumption, that might be how the math pencils out. But your point is well taken: one should bring a BIG eraser. :)
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Check this pup out:

    VW Rabbit Pickup diesel 45 MPG made in the USA

    image

    Find yours on E-Bay today !!!
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Manufacturers have not been able to sell a 45 mpg small truck in the US since the early 1980's. I think it may be against the law to sell a truck that obtains greater than 25 mpg. :P
  • hypnosis44hypnosis44 Member Posts: 483
    Cadillac convertibles at one time used to sell for more used than new. It's called an economic anomaly among other things - also sometimes called a "bubble".
  • stevecebustevecebu Member Posts: 493
    Pretty transparent, isn't it? As I have been saying: we do not need "35mpg passenger fleet by 2020" legislation, we just need cars that ACTUALLY get 35 mpg, (and above).... like the diesel zoom zoom zoom!

    Clear as glass, Mazda is ok but I'd go for a Honda, BMW diesel would be nice too as long as it's diesel. Plus here we get biodiesel which is really great to run. I'd get better economy if the truck didn't idle for 4-5 hours per fill up. But you can't sit in 120 degree heat without the A/C on. :blush:
    Less economy but sweating like a pig, no thanks and of course it's always summer here or pretty much so.
    We do need good clean diesels in the US and I really don't want to buy another gas model car. My work contract will be up in about 6 months and I will have no choice but to buy something when i get back to the US. but nothing is coming out until mid 2008. :sick:
    Imagine a diesel Miata! How wild would that be!
    For me a decent 5 door wagon or hatch diesel would be best. But has to fit 4 adults comfortably and have enough room to haul things on occasion.
    These kind of cars are all over europe but I wonder if Lutz was telling the truth about US diesel standards being 6 times more strict than in Europe. I bet this was done to keep foreign competition out.
    Imagine if we had Euro diesel standards we'd have plenty of diesels for this year.
    Ah but to dream. :)
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Yes, I think we have our oem favorites for diesels, and I am guessing it is based on the gasser experiences. I think once the diesel option is more widespread across oem model lines, the array will be like what it is for the mainstream. (gassers)

    So for example, I am a self described "reluctant" TDI VW consumer (diesel) I would have NEVER gotten a VW with the (at the time) 2.0 and 1.8T (gasser) motors. On one hand, the quality is almost head and shoulders above the Honda Civic. So yes IF Honda Civic had a TDI I would have probably selected it. On the other hand, now that I have a VW TDI I would not sell it to buy a Honda cTDI. I would get a diesel to replace a GASSER.
  • stevecebustevecebu Member Posts: 493
    Yes, I think we have our oem favorites for diesels, but I think once the diesel option is more widespread across oem model lines, the array will be like what it is for the mainstream. (gassers)
    So for example, I am a self described "reluctant" TDI VW consumer (diesel) I would have NEVER gotten a VW with the (at the time) 2.0 and 1.8T (gasser) motors. On the other hand, the quality is almost head and shoulders above the Honda Civic. So yes IF Honda Civic had a TDI I would have probably selected it.


    Well my issue has always been VW's lack of reliability and when they are running they are great but when they are broken it's no fun. also you have to rent a car while they are fixing it so that's an even bigger expense for me. if the dealer had to give you a car while they were fixing yours they would probably fix them a lot quicker.
    That said. in a few years many brands will have their own diesels. I so want to be able to like VW. But just been burned too many times. Mazda was ok I've owned a few of those in the past and they were decent I had an MX6 and a 323 and a Miata all at various times.
    I think Honda is the focus because it's very likely they will be first to market with a diesel in the Accord and prior to that it's Mercedes and VW. Toyota doesn't have a clean diesel that I'm aware of yet and regardless of the brand. I hope to see more and more diesels out there being driven. I like the way a diesel feels when it drives, almost like a 60's muscle car in a way because of the low torque and i don't personally need an 8,000rpm redline.
    I think my truck has a max of 4,600 rpms but the most I've ever used is 4,000 rpms.
    The Civic is ok but I find the seats to not fit me very well for some reason. i sat in one about 2 weeks ago when my wife was showroom floor testing them and the seats felt very hard to me and were not comfortable. the car itself is nice tho.
    Let's see who is first to market with a diesel other than VW. I'm thinking Honda.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    ..."I think Honda is the focus because it's very likely they will be first to market with a diesel in the Accord and prior to that it's Mercedes and VW."...

    My take is Honda might be of focus because of its reputation for reliability on the gasser side. Indeed VW has been in the USA diesel market during the period that is was not so "cool". Of the Accord platform size, the Passat TDI is the longer competitor. Indeed it was able to run LSD, while being designed for USLD.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,788
    The high demand will almost certainly decline when more are available to purchase new, but I wouldn't call it a bubble at this point. After all, its not like diesels are selling for MORE used than they are new. In any case, I think it is a safe bet that they will always be worth more than their gasser counterpart. Whether or not the engine option alone will continue to be worth more used than new remains to be seen. My guess is, if it were to continue on that path, the manufacturer would just start charging more when new, thereby forcing a market adjustment. An adjustment is different than a "crash," which is what is associated with a bubble.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    oops
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,788
    pssstt... i linked that a few posts back, hence the recent discussion. ;b

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • stevecebustevecebu Member Posts: 493
    My take is Honda might be of focus because of its reputation for reliability on the gasser side. Indeed VW has been in the USA diesel market during the period that is was not so "cool". Of the Accord platform size, the Passat TDI is the longer competitor. Indeed it was able to run LSD, while being designed for USLD.

    yes i agree Honda has really built a reputation for reliability and that means a LOT of sales that many other car makers would love to have. but VW is in big trouble as it lost $1 Billion last year. For a fairly small company that's a lot of money and they are dropping all the prices across the board on their models, but of course now you get steel rims etc...
    VW has been making diesels for a very long time and I think if their dealer network was better and gave better customer service and the cars broke less then that would help them a lot.
    Kudo's to VW for leading the pack with diesels but now they have competition coming which is usually very god for us consumers. ;)
    I'm glad you like your VW. The new GTI looks so nice but I just can't get all those problems out of my mind to the point where i would buy a gasser over a VW.
    It was really that bad.
    Passat was a nice car, BIG, especially in black, a friend of mine had one and loved it, it had more and more problems as it got older and in 2 years he was pretty unhappy with VW service. He still really loved that car tho. probably still has it. I haven't seen him in 5 years or so.
    Oh the new smashed up VW ads on the VW website. It it just me or is that just a bit disturbing to see the car brand new but smashed up? safety, yes but for me disturbing.
  • bristol2bristol2 Member Posts: 736
    but VW is in big trouble as it lost $1 Billion last year. For a fairly small company that's a lot of money

    I'm not some big VW fan but they are the largest selling manufacturer in Europe and are #4 in the world.
    VW group is also Porsche/ Audi/ Skoda/ Seat.

    No one wants to lose 1bn (it would certainly cramp my style :P ) but they are only really in trouble in the US.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Well my issue has always been VW's lack of reliability and when they are running they are great but when they are broken it's no fun. also you have to rent a car while they are fixing it so that's an even bigger expense for me. if the dealer had to give you a car while they were fixing yours they would probably fix them a lot quicker.

    I've owned several VW Tdi and they have been extremely reliable in regards to drivetrain and electronics. The window regulators, however, were a complete pain in the rear.
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