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The article talks about the high cost of development, but GM really does not want to see diesel grow in the United States. The development, or most of it has been already done by their European subsidiaries. The emissions technology to meet U.S. emissions already exists too and GM could license this from someone else. But in the typical GM way of doing things, they would rather re-invent the wheel, thus giving them an excuse to overcharge for the diesel option.
I am anxiously awaiting the bevy on new diesels that will arrive soon..but..I am not going to blindly plunk down several thousand dollars in up front costs just to save 5 cents a mile in fuel costs. They are going to have to make economic sense in my particular circumstances (about 12,000 miles per year) before I bite.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Not that I'm in the market for any GM, given my past lackluster experience with their products.
GM also needs to ACT FAST and produce some serious competition for the Toyota Yaris\Honda Fit. The Chevy Aveo gets embarrassing gas mileage for its size.
The current group of Mercedes diesel SUVs and car are about $1000 over the gas version. That makes sense. It will always be worth at least that much more when you sell it. To pay $5k-$7k premium for a diesel in a PU truck will never be gained back. And the resale will be at most a couple grand more. If you haul big trailers extensively the diesel is the only option.
http://www.kiplinger.com/columns/picks/archive/2007/pick0706.htm
I sincerely hope the oil industry engages brain on this and uses bio-fuels to mix with straight ULSD to reduce oil imports and improve viscosity.
That's why it would be nice to have a medium displacement 4-5L turbo diesel for the 1/2 ton truck/suv market. Hopefully the info I've been reading on GM and Ford developing smaller diesels for the 1/2 tons is true.
OMG, yes. It's a no-brainer if there ever was one.
TagMan
I have a V.M. Motori 2.8L four cylinder turbo diesel. The engine is quite solidly built. They have a very good reputation, but I must agree that GM will find a way to screw up things in their usual way.
The following article might hint at why a diesel option would almost be a no brainer. How many so called "options" SAVE you money, (as you use it in 24/7 operation) comparatively?
http://autos.yahoo.com/articles/autos_content_landing_pages/204/most-affordable-luxury-cars
So for example (not true in the US market) if Honda Civic offered the diesel option for say 1000, and if I had any $ concern/s, why would I not substitute the diesel option at 1000 for the 1250 dollars for the power door locks and cruise control options? I would swag the diesel option would not only give me even more outstanding resale value, whereas the power door locks and cruise control would have little to no effect!?
So, what do you all have to say in reply to Mr. Lutz's comments? In one instance, it sounds as if GM doesn't show any interest in the "new" deisel technology but then I read in this discussion about all the deisels GM have out there!
I, myself, am very interested and hopeful for this new technology to hit the market and be available at a reasonable price. It would be unbelieveable to be able to have a fuel source that we wouldn't have to rely on the Middle East to supply!
One more thing, I went into a Toyota dealership to have my Seinna serviced the other day and was approached by a salesman. He asked me if I had any questions about any of the vehicles. So, I asked him about the possibility of Toyota placing a new deisel in any of there vehicles in the next couple of years. He said that he hadn't heard anything about that in any of his meetings. Then he went on to state his opinion of why the new deisel probably isn't as great as it's cracked up to be. He said that you have to drive out of your way to get to a station that carries deisel and so that's an inconvenience. Then he said that personally the hydrogen engine will be the way to go. I really don't think he had any idea what the new deisel technology is - - even less so than myself. I just kinda politely walked away.
Sorry about the lengthy post here, but if anyone could post any info referring to my initial questions, I would appreciate it!
I don't feel sorry for GM at all, but I do feel sorry for Ford and their poor management.
We need cars that get good mileage in this country.
What Lutz meant to say was "American diesels...emissions...blah..blah..complicated...blah...blah...can't figure it out...blah..blah...wish we could design engines like the guys at Honda...blah...blah" ad infinitum.
His genius answer is ethanol. Go Bob, Go.
I'm not sure why he has such an anti-diesel thought process. I think it is a shame that a guy with all the resources he has to hand isn't better informed/ educated.
Somewhere in this forum a poster put up an article that noted that GM was just now getting into the planning phase for diesel in their light trucks- the last ones to do so. I just don't get it, what is it about $3+ gas and hybrids not working in bigger vehicles that he doesn't get?
So, what do you all have to say in reply to Mr. Lutz's comments? In one instance, it sounds as if GM doesn't show any interest in the "new" diesel technology but then I read in this discussion about all the diesels GM have out there!
GM is clueless, the whole world uses diesels. Gas is only very popular in the US and Japan. GM likes to sell huge HP and fuel inefficient cars. When was the last time you saw a good economy GM product? Oh sure they import Suzuki's 2 year old models and call it the Aveo. Suzuki dropped that model 2 years ago and now sells an awesome replacement!
http://www.suzuki.com.ph/
Click on Swift and see what GM could have brought in instead of the 2 year old model!
Lutz is getting old and has no idea about diesel. GM is backing Ethanol and Hybrids.
Yes if you get a large diesel it will have to have urea injection. The 2.5L Accord and VW type 4 cyls will not need Urea. Lutz was right about 1 thing, the US has the toughest laws in the world regarding diesel for cars!
Hydrogen is a laugh! It's very expensive to make hydrogen. It sounds great on paper but so does sticking solar panels all over your car and driving for free. It just won't work in the real world. Hydrogen under pressure is very dangerous. Just try and buy a tank and see how much safety is required then think about all the car accidents we have. Mini Hindenburgs going off all over! No thanks.
If you want to believe Lutz it's ok but he's talking out his backside. GM makes diesels already and they get 10mpg!
Go to the UK where diesels are very common and see what they have. Go to Germany and drive a BMW 1 3 or 5 series diesel. I think they have a 3 series diesel, anyway next to Ford which makes a diesel Ranger in the country I am working in. GM is the last people I'd trust for accurate info about diesel. I laughed my butt off when i heard a $5K premium! :surprise: I bought by Toyota Hi-Lux diesel for $15K and while it's not a clean diesel it gets awesome economy for a 4 door pickup truck! GM wishes they could build a midsize this nice and I have the base model with almost no options just A/C and a tape deck! Upper models were too dear in price and I didn't want a 4x4 anyway.
Toyota makes a great diesel it's just not clean enough for the US. The US is heavily invested into gas not diesel.
US made cars always get stupidly low fuel economy for some reason. In the UK and other places you can buy a BMW 120d 4 door hatchback diesel and even the Mini Cooper has a diesel!
They have diesels in the UK that get 73mpg!
Oh and yes Imperial Gallons but that's like .76 litres difference from the US 3.8 litre gallon.
Go on YouTube and look up Top Gear diesel.
Sure Clarkson has his own brand of humor and really cracks me up but you can get awesome economy with a cheap diesel but not in the US. Check out the BMW 535D they tested!
Funny stuff too bad it's no longer broadcast on TV any more. My wife and I watch the YouTube Top Gear stuff everyday as well as 5th Gear which is not as good.
Lots of other stuff on YouTube about diesels as well.
$5K premium for diesel but huge discounts on ethanol! Edmunds really needs a laughing icon on here!
IMHO.
TagMan
From the GM web site. http://www.gm.com/automotive/gmpowertrain/engines/duramax/
"GM plans diesel passenger cars in US by 2010-paper"
http://www.reuters.com/article/governmentFilingsNews/idUST7705520070713
List of GM diesels
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_GM_engines
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_Diesel
30 mpg in full sized trucks!!! WOO HOO !! "GM announcing a 4.5L V-8"...
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/06/25/new-gm-diesel-to-get-almost-30-mpg-in-full-size-trucks/
The EPA gave him a 35 MPG bye on his flex fuel vehicles. Nothing to do but put a label on the gas filler of all his 5.3L engines. Oh, you want CNG, same engine. No R&D on diesel emissions and the American buyer gets the shaft again. Except now we will have choices from several companies. We will not be stuck with vehicles from Toyota and GM. They can play their losing game with you know what. We should call them the BBB, Big Battery Boys.
Yeah now there's a shocker! :P
GM is not going to come out and say oh sure 35mpg by 2020 no problem. because they want to sell gas hogs until all the oil dries up. People aren't as stupid as GM thinks they are. It's a shame that people will believe this guy. I read the article and watched the video. Clueless is the only appropriate word for GM's CEO. Time to retire Bob! Remaking old muscle cars isn't going to work this time.
In a way I understand GM-USA; GM USA feels they are behind Honda, Mercedes and VW when it comes to clean diesel technology, so why bother to catch up. As for us the consumer, Lutz probably expects all of us to start growing corn on the roof of our houses and on our lawns, make some ethanol and get 6 MPG in the Suburban. Hey, but we would feel good about the environment and we will get a big cash-back from the GM dealers since they won't be able to sell them otherwise.
GM lost me after 1997 when i sold my '96 Impala SS. Great car in many ways but I went over to foreign cars and never looked back. The same will be true for diesels if we ever manage to get them in the showroom besides VW's. Honda is the only one other than Mercede$ which is not for economy but for performance. Toyota doesn't get that hybrids have their place but that shut off the engine tech is also on a BMW120d 4 door hatchback! If BMW ever released that here or the Mini Cooper diesel then you'd see Fit diesels and everything else coming as a diesel to compete.
The problem for the car makers as i see it is that Americans typically don't understand or like diesel. It's a gamble for them and they want to be cautious.
But if it really takes off then the market will be flooded with options for diesels. If the majority stick to gassers then diesels might stay around or get discontinued ala Accord Hybrid.
GM is pretty much a truck company and makes a lot of Commercial fleet vehicles and rental cars. Let them stay with that.
Domestic? Why?
Are the oil companies helping out the situation? I don't think so. I think they would like to be producing diesel for current uses and not have to expand their refining to meet a EU sized market. The EU sells us their gas because they have a glut from the lopsided demand for diesel.
I don't think Bob Lutz is well informed and speaks whatever pops into his head. GM is developing the new smaller diesel for use in 1/2 ton PU trucks and high end SUVs.
I think it was a marketing ploy to float as a trial balloon the concept of the extra premium profit (2,000-2,300) on top of already a premium profit (1,000-7,000). That of course makes the app 250 dollar premium for the 2003 TDI seem....
I'm glad to hear all the feedback in regard to my post and to hear that Mr. Lutz is just a typical corporate windbag!
I am looking with great anticipation for the forthcoming new deisels down the pike!
This deisel forum is great and I enjoy seeing all the new posts. I have one more question for those out there. Is the Honda that is coming out with the deisel going to have the new body sytle that can be seen on Edmund's future cars? When is it expected to come out? Do you know where I can look for more information on this?
Thanks again for sharing!
... EGR, maybe has some redemption in a gasoline engine (no soot), but the only reason it is in a Diesel is bureacratic agrandization.
Yes, the Diesel Honda Accords that will apparently arrive in as 2009 models will be modifications of the new eighth generation gasoline powered Accords that will be in showrooms in September 2007 as 2008 models.
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/GeneralFuture/articleId=121616
On the one hand the small displacement allowed a minimum vehicle weight of only 1,800 kgs (3,970 lbs). On the other hand the robust cast-iron block´s structure provided enough potential to beef it up at low risk for durability and to also find the right combination of power, torque and fuel-efficiency.
Dakar Touareg 2006 specs:
Vehicle weight 1,800 kgs (3,970 lbs), 285 hp at 3,900 rpm, 620 Nm (458 lb ft) of torque at 2,500 rpm, 0-60 mph in 6,0 secs, approx. 18 mpg (under racing conditions).
In opposition to this the production Touareg 2.5TDI specs:
Vehicle weight 2,400 kgs (5,290 lbs), 174 hp at 3,500 rpm, 400 Nm (295 lb ft) of torque at 2,000 rpm, 0-60 mph in 12,5 secs, approx. 24 mpg (European "real-life" measurement).
In combination with the standard 6-speed manual it´s a driveable configuration. But if you necessarily have to add the optional auto-transmission for the American market, from your power-seeking folk´s point of view this car will probably mute to some kind of a sitting duck. That´s the reason why VW is not wasting any time on getting their "grandpa" 50-state compliant.
Do they offer the Touareg with a 4 cylinder TDI? Have you seen or driven the Tiguan TDI. That looks pretty good if they offer it with a diesel.
My understanding is most of the EGR problems were a result of high sulfur diesel? I do not understand putting devices on an engine that have very little benefit in cutting emissions. Especially when it cuts mileage which adds to CO2.
When I read the news about the release of the 2009 Honda it said that the deisel is still a few years away...? So does that mean we will not see one until 2012? Man, I sure hope not!
But, it does sound as if VW will be introducing their new deisels in 2009. I wouldn't mind having one of those models if I could foresee their reliability! I think VW builds quality cars as far as interior product is concerned but I always hear mechanically, they gave a lot of trouble. But, I also believe a lot depends on how well one maintains their car, too!
It does seem though that when the likes of say Honda puts out a brand new product even in it's first year, it still has great reliability.
Getting back to my initial question, does anyone know if that's true about the deisel Honda?
Also each line, Honda and VW have interesting reps in their own markets. In the USA Honda has a quality and reliability reputation. In Japan, the engine is considered washed up with 50,000 miles. European cars are infinitely preferable to domestics. In the USA, VW is considered iffy at best. In Europe it is considered very reliable.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I am due a timing belt change at 100,000 miles (recommended) to 120,000 miles.
New? This is a 2003. Mileage has been between 44-62 mpg (EPA of 42/49) I do not run bio diesel. One has to search for outlets in CA, not to mention the premium.
As I indicated earlier, the Honda Accord Diesel is supposed to be on sale for the 2009 model year.
There are variations on EGR that filter the soot out first, but they are much? more expensive. And not on any planning board for cars that I am aware of.
In short, when I buy my diesel (hope next year!), and the gear heads figure out how to 'remove' it without throwing a CEL/causing a code, then it goes bye-bye. Longer life, more power, better mileage. What's not to love?