Mercedes insists that the premium over a gasoline E-Class will be less than $2,000, compared with at least $4,000 for a hybrid. Even that added cost could be partially offset if the U.S. government proceeds with plans to offer diesel the same tax benefits hybrids now enjoy. Toyota Motor Corp. (TM) may have stolen the limelight on fuel efficiency with its hybrid Prius. But if the new crop of Daimler clean diesels catches on, the real debate about green car technology may be just beginning.
Daimler's system, called BlueTec, uses a catalytic converter and specialized filters to reduce harmful nitrogen-oxide emissions. The company is betting BlueTec will turn U.S. drivers on to diesel and give hybrids fresh competition. The reason: Mercedes clean-diesel cars will cost less than an equivalent hybrid while offering greater power and acceleration, plus up to 40% better mileage over conventional gas engines. That's a lure for Americans who love big cars and off-road vehicles. And diesels can go 500 miles without a fill-up.
The key to diesels catching on will be proper marketing. Once people see that these new generation diesels are nothing like the old diesels that burned everyone, I think diesels can become popular again.
I posted a link to Honda's diesel advertising in UK in the Hybrids and Diesels Deals or Duds topic and lo and behold, I'm not the only one who took notice of Honda and it's diesel marketing, now there is a article at Businessweek.
I am hoping that I can get in early before the general public catches on to the new diesels. Maybe get it at a discount. It doesn't sound like I will be in a Honda though, I don't plan on waiting so long.
I would agree! My SWAG is Honda might be one major player, adding to MB, VW, Chrysler and the biggie three light truck folks. VW for example sells ALL of its TDI's and probably wish for 2x what they currently are allocated.
I think to put things a bit more into context, some statistics might be helpful.
There is a passenger vehicle fleet of 235.4 M. (NHTSA registered vehicles) "WE" buy app 17 M vehicles per year. The average age of the PVF is 7.5 to 8.5 years. The annual vehicle salvage rate is 7 to 7.5 % The current DIESEL passenger vehicle fleet is between 2.3 to 2.9%. Most are light truck diesels. Depending on how you measure this, it took 20-25 years to reach this percentage.
So my swag is diesels of all stripes (in the PVF)will probably go the trajectory of (NHTSA) SUVs of 12% of the PVF. This of course took the better part of 20-25 years. So FAST growth will be .5% per year or 1/2 of one percent per year.
I read somewhere that Audi perhaps builds the best car diesel engine in the world. On paper it just might be the best diesel on the market. It sure performace very well and is better than it's gas alternative.
We'll get a chance to see Audi's diesel talents in action. They're running a diesel in the 24 hours of Le Mans. Personally, I'd like to see it win going away. But then the sanctioning body would just ban it from further competition, so maybe 2nd or 3rd would be more discreet.
2009 BMW 335i, 2003 Corvette cnv. (RIP 2001 Jaguar XK8 cnv and 1985 MB 380SE [the best of the lot])
Editorial: Bush should push diesel to ease oil dependence
Diesel beats hybrids for achieving president's goals
President George W. Bush is scheduled to be in Auburn Hills today to push his agenda for breaking what he calls America's addiction to oil.
In a visit to solar panel maker United Solar Ovonic, he'll tout the advantages of alternative energy devices to reduce the nation's dependence on foreign oil. That's in line with his promotion of alternative fuels and gasoline-electric hybrid engines. Like solar power, they're trendy and sexy stuff.
But the old workhorse diesel engines are the better short-term answer for cutting oil imports, and the president ought to be doing more to encourage diesel use.
Diesels deliver fuel economy up to 40 percent better than any other engine on the market, are easy to install in current makes and models, and don't require the construction of a new fueling infrastructure.
But the biggest draw is that diesel technology is proven and available now. In fact, more than half the European automotive fleet is powered by diesel engines.
Hybrid vehicles have become the choice among some consumers thanks to generous federal subsidies and marketing campaigns that grossly overstate fuel economy numbers. There are questions about hybrid battery life and replacement costs as well as their durability.
In a true head-to-head match-up, diesels compete favorably with hybrids' reported gas mileage numbers and in some situations better. Bush should add a strong diesel component to his push for cutting oil dependency.
He should move to modify the emissions standards for cars and trucks that are being phased in through 2007 by bringing them more in line with those supported in Europe. Soot and particulate emissions standards vary by state and sometimes cities in the United States, unlike in Europe where centralized standards generally exist.
Also, unlike the United States, which places emissions burdens on the petroleum companies as well as the auto companies, European emissions rules are more centralized and mostly achieved at the refinery through lower sulfur content for diesel fuel. Similar standards are being required for refineries in the United States by 2007, which eases the transition toward uniform guidelines.
Clean-diesel technologies exist in the United States. DaimlerChrysler, for example, has built a diesel engine it says will meet emissions standards in 45 states, including Michigan. But the continual constriction of soot and particulate regulations makes it difficult for automakers to keep up in America.
The path should be cleared to convert the American fleet to fuel saving diesel.
At least not here in California. You can not lower the NOx and Particulents standards to European levels because we have CARB and it is older that the Federal standards. CARB has affirmed that diesel Particulents are known carcinogens. Plus we have a mandate to have the manufacturers warentee the pollution equipment for 100,000 miles and the particulant traps in european diesels can't cover that kind of use. No, unless Bush wants a fight with the greenies on his hands Europeans standards will not cut it in the US.
All we in CA need are for the prices to go much higher and experience real or imagined shortages. Then all of a sudden we will "get smart." CA regulators have always taken a very skitzoid approach to reality.
if CA doesn't embrace the new diesels, there will be tons of political pressure and a black market import of cars from other states. I hope we get realistic here.
Stands diesels will have a hard row to hoe. The Feds have threatened several times to take California to court and yet the State has resisted. California has had stricter standards for fuel for far longer than any other state and as you can see from the ERA own green site they have been paying higher prices for their fuel because of the restrictions on the grade they will allow in the state. They have had a restriction on diesels sold in the state for some time as well. I believe that between 2004 and 2006 only VW has been allowed to sell any new diesels here, except 3/4 ton trucks. And yes old diesels sell at a pretty good return here as well. But if anyone believes CARB will budge on this issue I have a bridge to sell them. Diesel cars will have to have exactly the same pollution numbers as a gas or propane engine or they will not be allowed in the State as a new vehicle. For the Americans NOx and particulants are under far stricter regulations than Europe and that isn't going to change anytime soon either.
Again I will say NO!! Due to the skitzoid nature of the regulations, one can actually registered a (new) diesel that has 7500 miles. (from ANY STATE in the nation)
The other skitzoid gig is one can buy NEW DIESEL pick up trucks from the biggie 2.5 such as Cummins, GM, FORD, etc.
The very reason I bought a gas PU over the Diesel I wanted. I really did not have that big of a trailer that the V8 gasser would not handle it. You can buy a lot of gas for $8000. The same reason that hybrids are not such good buys.
I do have a F-250 Powerstroke. And I do pull with it. Or I did till my son moved to Texas and took the truck. The Powerstroke has more torque than I will ever need and it gets better fuel mileage than a gas rig of the same size. In fact I believe it gets better fuel mileage than just about any full sized gas pickup. We can pull a fully loaded trailer with a Jeep Rock crawler and still get 20 MPG. However I have to have a 3/4 ton or bigger to get that engine. If I had a 1/2 ton it falls under the same rules as a Car and so we couldn't get one here. I wish there were more diesel choices but with the particulants they produce CARB has our hands tied.
Separately, the trade publication also reported that General Motors is planning a global diesel offensive starting in 2008 that would include launching new diesel engines in the United States, where the technology has found few fans compared to Europe.
"We are developing right now two highly modern diesel motors that won't just fulfil the Euro-5 emission standards, but the more stringent Bin-5 regulations in the USA," GM manager told Automobilwoche.
if you had to chose between a GM and another diesel, where would you go?
I think most of GM diesels are Izusu currently. A V6 Duramax in a 1/2 ton PU would be sweet. I think GM learned a lot from their mistakes back in the 1980s. Some of those old GM diesel PU trucks are still running. My fear is that the EPA will load them down to where they just won't run. We are having fits with our 4 new 6.0 Powerstrokes. All fuel and sensor problems in extreme cold.
I think CARB will destroy any chance of us getting a 1/2 diesel. If you have to meet the same emissions standards as a passenger cars diesels will fail in the particulant portion of the test. Unless CARB is forced to change it's stand a filter trap would have to last for something like 60k miles or be replaced for free by the manufacturer. Not very cost effective to date I don't believe. The restrictions on heavy duty trucks are far less extream. I will wait and see before I start looking for a small diesel in my state.
Agreed, but if you had to chose between a GM and another diesel, where would you go?
Duramax in the US and the CDTi in the Vauxhall in Europe had very good reliability and performance. I would have to evaluate any future GM offerings based on their merits, not based on the 5.7 GM diesels of the late 70's early 80's. Would also need to consider where the engine was being manufactured and which assembly location. GM quality is equal to the best of the best depending on location.
ok, I am not GM bashing, although we do have two GMC DuraMax's and both have been in for new injectors. Go figure. Seems to be plenty of GM diesel and Ford diesel problems still around. They should be getting it by now.
I would take a Mercedes diesel first. Then likely a Cummins or a Caterpillar in the US brands.
My tractor has an Iveco diesel. Seems ok. We had a couple huge dune hopper Iveco diesels in Magirus trucks in Africa. These engines have been around forever.
I think the smaller engines are where the US '07+ market is going to be, not the 5.0+ liter v-8's. So I think there will be new products out there that aren't currently mainstream. Toyota, Honda, Subaru, Nissan, Mitsubishi, Mazda, they will all be looking to bring stuff in.
I think in reality it is the Oil industry that has kept diesel cars from becoming reality. They fought tooth and nail over the ULSD issue. Took us several years longer than the EU to get it here. Now the EPA and CARB puts up roadblocks on every diesel option that comes their way. I don't think the oil companies want us to get 37% better mileage. They are not worried about the hybrids as they are confident that whole genre will self destruct within 10 years. Notice how well the EV went over. Who has the most powerful lobby in Congress? Look what big oil did to ethanol in the 1980s. Now again they are dumping cheap gas on that fire till it burns itself out.
There was rumblings in the industry to charge for fuel by btu. That would kill most of the incentive to own a diesel vehicle other than for towing. They know that biodiesel is ready to come out of its shell. That is an even bigger problem than ethanol.
I don't expect the government to do anything as they only see lost revenue from better mileage vehicles. Why else would they push ethanol so hard. More tax money from lower mileage.
I can't help but think they're going to dominate a long race if they can solve the reliability issues, because they will have better fuel economy than the other cars--diesel has significantly more joules/L than ordinary race fuel
I am just afraid that if they do too well, the competition will manage to get them restricted to the place where they can no longer compete. That seems to be the fate of most new technology lately.
2009 BMW 335i, 2003 Corvette cnv. (RIP 2001 Jaguar XK8 cnv and 1985 MB 380SE [the best of the lot])
I think it was 1968 when Parnelli Jones took the AWD turbine car to Indy and ran away from the pack. He would have won except for a $10 part. Next year they restricted the engine so it would not be competitive. With a comparable sized engine I believe diesel will win most of the time. I hope I get to watch the finish at Sebring.
Has anyone got any information on the new Ford Diesel. (in the F serries) Navistar tells me it will no longer be made by them. But lately I have been hearing it will be a twin turbo engine made by navistar bearing the name of a third company. Would like to have any information as Hp etc. thanks Bar S
Ford is being real quiet about their new diesel. The 6.0L has caused them more grief than the old 7.3 and they want to get rid of the existing stock before bringing out the new engine.
Just a cool story...a friend of mine is in the UK right now, and his rental Vauxhall crapped out after about 30 miles. So the rental agency gave him a free upgrade, and his current car is a Peugeot 607 diesel. He called me about it yesterday, to tell me he loves the car. He says it performs admirably with excellent mileage and is very comfortable and plush. He claims if they sold them here, he'd buy one.
The french cars have such a bad reputation in the US I just can't see more that a very few people buying them. If they had time I am sure they could survive. But it was the Boomers that drove Renault and Peugeot from our shores like village people with torches chasing frankenstein. Unless they sold them as Nissans and used their dealer support.
we had such bad dealer service here. We were used to going to a dealer and getting the parts you wanted from stock. If not, you only had to wait a day or two and the warehouse would ship them in. Not with the French cars. Odd ball is one thing, letting the mechanic have your car more than you have it is another.
And then there was the choice of cars they sent us. The absolutely worst car was the LeCar. Citrons were a hydrolic nightmare and Peugeots made much better bicycles.
In the Amrillo Globe talking about making Bio-diesel out of Cow remainings. My buddy at work told me a few days ago you can go buy a kit to convert Mickey D's type grease into to Diesel. He saw it on TV, I think TLC. They did a full scale test. About $0.08 cents a gallon after you buy the conversion kit.
Here is an article briefly discussing the new Subie diesel engine. Also important to note is the tie up between Subaru and Toyota and the use of Toyota hybrid drivetrains by Subaru.
I have a question. I know that Europe has different emission standards for gas and diesel vehicles. I also know that at least one of them (CO, I believe) is tighter for diesels than for gassers. The question that I have is, can diesels achieve lower levels of some pollutants than gassers can? That is, in the real world, does a NZEV gasser still produce more CO than a modern diesel or are the best gassers universally lower in pollution than the best diesels?
2009 BMW 335i, 2003 Corvette cnv. (RIP 2001 Jaguar XK8 cnv and 1985 MB 380SE [the best of the lot])
I used to know the answers, but they aren't so clear anymore...if neither one was regulated, the short version is that some are less, and some are more. But most of the pollutants are now controlled to a large extent. It is just that certain diesel pollutants are more expensive to control (NOx and PMs, for example).
Now, add in the high tech aspect of some of the diesel engines (turbocharged, intake cooled, multiple injections, valve timing, etc.) and each engine model is different as well.
Comments
Daimler's system, called BlueTec, uses a catalytic converter and specialized filters to reduce harmful nitrogen-oxide emissions. The company is betting BlueTec will turn U.S. drivers on to diesel and give hybrids fresh competition. The reason: Mercedes clean-diesel cars will cost less than an equivalent hybrid while offering greater power and acceleration, plus up to 40% better mileage over conventional gas engines. That's a lure for Americans who love big cars and off-road vehicles. And diesels can go 500 miles without a fill-up.
http://www.businessweek.com/autos/content/feb2006/bw20060208_539996.htm
M
I posted a link to Honda's diesel advertising in UK in the Hybrids and Diesels Deals or Duds topic and lo and behold, I'm not the only one who took notice of Honda and it's diesel marketing, now there is a article at Businessweek.
I am hoping that I can get in early before the general public catches on to the new diesels. Maybe get it at a discount. It doesn't sound like I will be in a Honda though, I don't plan on waiting so long.
John
Diesel is getting a lot of play in the press, now I just need to see some actual diesel cars available for sale beyond VW and Mercedes.
I think to put things a bit more into context, some statistics might be helpful.
There is a passenger vehicle fleet of 235.4 M. (NHTSA registered vehicles) "WE" buy app 17 M vehicles per year. The average age of the PVF is 7.5 to 8.5 years. The annual vehicle salvage rate is 7 to 7.5 % The current DIESEL passenger vehicle fleet is between 2.3 to 2.9%. Most are light truck diesels. Depending on how you measure this, it took 20-25 years to reach this percentage.
So my swag is diesels of all stripes (in the PVF)will probably go the trajectory of (NHTSA) SUVs of 12% of the PVF. This of course took the better part of 20-25 years. So FAST growth will be .5% per year or 1/2 of one percent per year.
Rocky
2009 BMW 335i, 2003 Corvette cnv. (RIP 2001 Jaguar XK8 cnv and 1985 MB 380SE [the best of the lot])
Diesel beats hybrids for achieving president's goals
President George W. Bush is scheduled to be in Auburn Hills today to push his agenda for breaking what he calls America's addiction to oil.
In a visit to solar panel maker United Solar Ovonic, he'll tout the advantages of alternative energy devices to reduce the nation's dependence on foreign oil. That's in line with his promotion of alternative fuels and gasoline-electric hybrid engines. Like solar power, they're trendy and sexy stuff.
But the old workhorse diesel engines are the better short-term answer for cutting oil imports, and the president ought to be doing more to encourage diesel use.
Diesels deliver fuel economy up to 40 percent better than any other engine on the market, are easy to install in current makes and models, and don't require the construction of a new fueling infrastructure.
But the biggest draw is that diesel technology is proven and available now. In fact, more than half the European automotive fleet is powered by diesel engines.
Hybrid vehicles have become the choice among some consumers thanks to generous federal subsidies and marketing campaigns that grossly overstate fuel economy numbers. There are questions about hybrid battery life and replacement costs as well as their durability.
In a true head-to-head match-up, diesels compete favorably with hybrids' reported gas mileage numbers and in some situations better. Bush should add a strong diesel component to his push for cutting oil dependency.
He should move to modify the emissions standards for cars and trucks that are being phased in through 2007 by bringing them more in line with those supported in Europe. Soot and particulate emissions standards vary by state and sometimes cities in the United States, unlike in Europe where centralized standards generally exist.
Also, unlike the United States, which places emissions burdens on the petroleum companies as well as the auto companies, European emissions rules are more centralized and mostly achieved at the refinery through lower sulfur content for diesel fuel. Similar standards are being required for refineries in the United States by 2007, which eases the transition toward uniform guidelines.
Clean-diesel technologies exist in the United States. DaimlerChrysler, for example, has built a diesel engine it says will meet emissions standards in 45 states, including Michigan. But the continual constriction of soot and particulate regulations makes it difficult for automakers to keep up in America.
The path should be cleared to convert the American fleet to fuel saving diesel.
Hot of the Press !!!!!!!!
Rocky
There are plenty of examples.
John
The other skitzoid gig is one can buy NEW DIESEL pick up trucks from the biggie 2.5 such as Cummins, GM, FORD, etc.
That's it.
John
John
The very reason I bought a gas PU over the Diesel I wanted. I really did not have that big of a trailer that the V8 gasser would not handle it. You can buy a lot of gas for $8000. The same reason that hybrids are not such good buys.
"We are developing right now two highly modern diesel motors that won't just fulfil the Euro-5 emission standards, but the more stringent Bin-5 regulations in the USA," GM manager told Automobilwoche.
article here
The more choices, the better!
Agreed, but if you had to chose between a GM and another diesel, where would you go?
Unfortunately GM has left a nasty diesel taste in many people's mouths.
John
I think most of GM diesels are Izusu currently. A V6 Duramax in a 1/2 ton PU would be sweet. I think GM learned a lot from their mistakes back in the 1980s. Some of those old GM diesel PU trucks are still running. My fear is that the EPA will load them down to where they just won't run. We are having fits with our 4 new 6.0 Powerstrokes. All fuel and sensor problems in extreme cold.
Duramax in the US and the CDTi in the Vauxhall in Europe had very good reliability and performance.
I would have to evaluate any future GM offerings based on their merits, not based on the 5.7 GM diesels of the late 70's early 80's.
Would also need to consider where the engine was being manufactured and which assembly location. GM quality is equal to the best of the best depending on location.
I would take a Mercedes diesel first. Then likely a Cummins or a Caterpillar in the US brands.
My tractor has an Iveco diesel. Seems ok. We had a couple huge dune hopper Iveco diesels in Magirus trucks in Africa. These engines have been around forever.
I think the smaller engines are where the US '07+ market is going to be, not the 5.0+ liter v-8's. So I think there will be new products out there that aren't currently mainstream. Toyota, Honda, Subaru, Nissan, Mitsubishi, Mazda, they will all be looking to bring stuff in.
It should be interesting in the next few years.
There was rumblings in the industry to charge for fuel by btu. That would kill most of the incentive to own a diesel vehicle other than for towing. They know that biodiesel is ready to come out of its shell. That is an even bigger problem than ethanol.
I don't expect the government to do anything as they only see lost revenue from better mileage vehicles. Why else would they push ethanol so hard. More tax money from lower mileage.
Diesel claims Pole Position
Diesels are FAST!
I can't help but think they're going to dominate a long race if they can solve the reliability issues, because they will have better fuel economy than the other cars--diesel has significantly more joules/L than ordinary race fuel
2009 BMW 335i, 2003 Corvette cnv. (RIP 2001 Jaguar XK8 cnv and 1985 MB 380SE [the best of the lot])
However, other engine manufacturers have disels they could toss in, or source from audi. Honda and BMW have great diesels, as does merc.
In any case, i hope audi wins and i hope that diesels dominate for awhile.
Good luck to Audi at the 24 hours of LeMans!
It's funny that the makes don't have such a bad rep in the UK, but I think people are more tolerant there of oddball cars.
And then there was the choice of cars they sent us. The absolutely worst car was the LeCar. Citrons were a hydrolic nightmare and Peugeots made much better bicycles.
dave
CRD is being accepted into the marketplace.
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/11809771/
What this means to you:
Who ever said McDonalds was really bad for you is a liar. :P
Rocky
Somewhat humerous (to me:) article about diesel, the recent Audi win, and the press.
Oh my gosh, wish I could afford this for weekend fun!
Subaru The diesels are coming, the diesels are coming!
Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, Nissan, BMW, Daimler, Subaru, Audi are all planning to offer diesel in North America. Hello Ford and GM, anyone still awake
Also important to note is the tie up between Subaru and Toyota and the use of Toyota hybrid drivetrains by Subaru.
Gunma Prefecture the site of Subaru diesel engine manufacture
Good publicity for diesel.
2009 BMW 335i, 2003 Corvette cnv. (RIP 2001 Jaguar XK8 cnv and 1985 MB 380SE [the best of the lot])
Now, add in the high tech aspect of some of the diesel engines (turbocharged, intake cooled, multiple injections, valve timing, etc.) and each engine model is different as well.