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Comments
PZEV diesel systems were boasted about back then. Those prototypes were quite practical for the upcoming reduction of sulfur, but the price never came down. They are still too expensive to be competitive.
Now he is forced to wait for diesel to show up in a hybrid system... and it will, eventually. The series hybrid with a tiny TDI could work well. In the meantime, we get misrepresentations about how Prius actually works. It's frustrating, but all I need to do is remind about the need to reduce SMOG in addition to MPG improvement.
JOHN
PS
I did my hybrid stint and glad it is behind me.
PZEV being the ultimate JOKE. It is like being kind of pregnant. Either you have Zero Emissions or you don't.
Apparently, the 'standards' which dictate what constitutes a "hybred" are left open to interpertation.
I find it appalling that a V8 powered 1/2 ton pickup truck that charges the battery when the brakes are applied can be tagged with the label "Hybred"!
How is this related to Diesel? I would bet that "hybred" pickup truck would be allowed in HOV lanes only because of the "hybred" label affixed to its [non-permissible content removed]-end.... while by 56MPG TDI is not even a consideration for tax-breaks!
kcram - Pickups Host
Having read most of the article “Cities and Energy Consumption” I can only come to the conclusion that this plant is way over populated and only reinforces what I have stated in the past, we need a good plague.
I know, rather macabre and not the most popular idea among the living to save resources and reduce pollution, but effective. It is non-discriminatory, has no social, economic or gender boundaries and can be easily transported.
Until we can stop the world from reproducing for a few years (good luck with that plan), a naturally occurring cleansing of the earth seems the only solution. It has happened in the past and we can assume it will happen again.
Until then good clean fuel efficient diesel passenger cars are one of our best options.
It's all relative, you have to look at the balance of power and economy. That Civic gets Good scores on both. It'll outrun most cars on the road, yet it also beat most cars in economy.
Not quite your cake and eat it, but it is a whole lot quicker than a Civic Hybrid, too.
C&D averaged only 19 mpg in their comparison test of compact SUVs. Relative to that average, the diesel Civic uses half as much fuel and is quicker than any of them, even the V6 models.
I tend to agree with others on two points:
1) C&D test is unrepresentative of real-life driving
2) That engine is way too large for the Civic
I personally hope Honda with market their diesel vehicles to compete with the hybrid offerings. That means small, fuel-efficient engines. With the same fuel efficiency, I would go for a diesel in a heartbeat for three reasons:
1) Simplicity of the power train
2) Longevity
3) Torque (not acceleration)
Accord wagon or hatch would be perfect with a small diesel. CRV might be good, too, but it would have to have a 6 speed stick for maximum fuel efficiency.
However, I seem to be in a minority, and Honda will likely try to impress people with power and acceleration at the expense of mpg, just as all the other makes appear to do in the US. Too bad I love to live here, but the cars I like are only sold in Europe.
Cole, however, expects diesel use to expand, especially among truck and SUV buyers, where gasoline fuel economy is worse but consumer demand is high.
Diesel could let drivers achieve fuel economy gains without moving into a smaller car, said Christopher Qualters, director of diesel systems marketing at auto supplier Robert Bosch LLC. Bosch, a maker of diesel engine components and after treatments, predicts diesel will have a 15 percent stake in the U.S. market by 2015.
"Who wouldn't want to drive the same vehicle they have now, but get 30 percent better fuel economy?" he said. "You're not asking the driver to make a sacrifice."
Lets leave towing to the proper vehicles.... I think this discussion about the Civic is mainly about the efficency- side of the diesel engine.
A Civic is designed for efficency right down to the sizing of the brakes and suspension system. You may get away with strapping some skiis or a canoe to the top of it.... but not for towing.
BTW: I used to own one of the 4-wheel -drive Civic wagons. It had the engine from the Prelude in it and 6 speed manual xmission. (but I never towed with it besides strapping a canoe to the top of it)
I do realize that gettiing the existing diesel Civic *approved* by the Feds may be an expensive undertaking.
So... it takes three or more years for most of the world's Diesel engine drivers (who drive considerably fewer miles per year than US drivers) to finally have their Diesel engines broken-in? Just as here at home, there are millions of modern (rather than very old) vehicles on roads in Europe and highly developed nations in Asia, Latin America, etc. Those vehicles are owned by people who are clearly trading or selling them well before racking up hundreds of thousands of miles. There are around FIFTY MILLION new vehicles sold worldwide annually in recent years. People, worldwide, want CHANGE. People, worldwide, have been sold (by marketers) on the idea that NEW is desirable. While there is a substantial core that do, most people, worldwide, who can afford to do so, don't consider it their personal goal or challege to hypermile or to see for how many years they can drive the same vehicle.
Most rational people don't have any interest in waiting years before their engines are finally broken in. They want to buy a car and have it drive the way they expect it to... from day #1.
............ it's not all that bad. It's called parasitic drag. It's just a fact of life that a Diesel has more than a gas engine. Although it might take 30 K for a Diesel to reach optimum MPG it will remain there for a very long time and even while breaking in it will achieve better MPG than a gasser. I have a proven system to solve this problem. Of course it brings some complication and initial expense.
The 2.2l almost seems like a performance option. It's as quick as the early 90s Civic Si, but probably doesn't need to be.
A few things struck me. Roland3 did a lead in, and not to steal any thunder or rain on the parade, but, since it seems TURBO diesels appear to be the up coming product of choice, anyone who buys a turbo (gasser or diesel) should be aware this is an "animal" with its own min requirements.
People that buy Civic gassers have a range of sensibilities from buy it and FORGETTA BOUT IT attitude to the extreme enthusiast. For my .02 cents the first attitude would NOT be a good one for the turbo diesel.
Blane's take however valid or seemingly sensical comes form a number of back ground economic's which are different world wide, to Asian, to European, to US., which will of course affect/effect the particular Honda vehicles in respective markets. While a nameplate might be the same across, they are indeed differently "the same vehicle" or the different "samely" vehicle. If any one doubts this, just try to operate the same Honda Civic diesel in any and all markets. Indeed the most compelling example is Europe is used to 6/7 dollar diesel fuel. We are close to panic with the spectre of 3.50 RUG.
So it makes it a minority option in the US market, to go to a fuel source product that gets 20-40% more than similar RUG to PUG products.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.autos.dodge.trucks/browse_thread/thread/567c7- bec105df363/d0dfc3c953339fac%23d0dfc3c953339fac
People that buy Civic gassers have a range of sensibilities from buy it and FORGETTA BOUT IT attitude to the extreme enthusiast. For my .02 cents the first attitude would NOT be a good one for the turbo diesel.
I think it will be interesting to see what Honda specifies for the care and feeding of their turbodiesel. As a current VW turbo (gasser) owner, I'm curious to see if Honda is going to have some exotic oil specification that the common owner can't easily find. Also what the spec for other services.
Question: A few people in the past have mentioned the expected lifespan on the VW TDI engine - something like 25,000 hours at a certain load. Where did this informaiton come from and how was it substantiated?
On the lifespan of the VW TDI, you may wish to do a google. More specificially, do a search on the web site: www.tdiclub.com/.
Some history, the actual specification/s is/are almost a state secret, kept even closer to the vest that REAL state secrets.
To cut to the chase, the 4 cylinder (VW) TDI has industrial applications. Industrial applications talk in terms of hours/loading. So the industrial application is specified as 25,000 HOURS at an 85% LOADING. As you have probably surmised, most cars do not run anywhere close to 85% loading. In addition almost NOBODY thinks in terms of automobiles running in hours, but they do think in terms of say 100,000 miles. (this of course is highly oxymoronic in that we think in terms of mph!!?? ) So for example if you installed an hours meter and you clicked 2000 hours to go 100,000 miles, your average would be 50 mph. So pick an average mph. (50 mph average, for example * 25,000 hours= 1,250,000 miles.) So as you can further surmise, less than 85% loading would put 25,000 hours rating as "conservative".
Indeed one can buy and a fix an hours meter to a passenger car, but I think you understand what I am saying.
Interesting you mention about people not paying attention to hours. I use my car's onboard computer to monitor the hours between oil changes. Currently, I don't let my 1.8T go beyond 200 hours which, at my average speeds, falls just around 4,800 miles. That's great because it always keeps me within the OCI mileage that VWoA demands under their extended sludge warranty. 'Course, I'm also tied to the dealer for oil changes, but I've got my paper trail in place "just in case." But I never exceed 5,000 miles, 200 hours, or 6 months, whichever comes first.
However on the face of it, it would seem a HUGE obstacle has been removed in the soot sludge and EGR issues; by virtue of the fact the LSD ( previously 500 ppm) has gone to ULSD (15ppm) and biodiesel (down to as low as ZERO ppm. ) This represent drops of between 97% to virtually incalcuable!!! Indeed the use of either fuel ULSD and biodiesel, in some instances has made the previously important measure of TBN almost a NON issue over the same OCI.
As a result, depending on a series of the other numbers and the interrelationships of those numbers on a trend UOA , even longer OCI's are becoming the norm.
Indeed the so called "long life" or VW 507.00 (newest) specifications the recommended range is between 12,000 to 30,000 miles. (Cummins/etc do not use VW 507.00 specified oil.)
Given this, the highway MPG, theoreticly, could be higher than you may think.
All things being equal.... a heavier automobile would have nearly identical highway MPG. The stop-n-go driving would take a hit in MPG though. (again, because of the laws of physics which define an object in motion and how it behaves when a force in applied to it.)
Let me put it another way... My VW Jetta TDI with 4 adults and the AC on full can acheive 57 MPG on the highway. (15 hour trip) I beleive the weight of Jetta and 4 adults is MORE than your 3700lb Accord.
Of course, hilly terrain may make weight become a larger factor in the equation.
So for example a 200 hours oil change IS at 50 mph average= 10,000 miles, which specifically is what VW recommends for the OCI.
Ruking1, just to clarify...what VWoA specifically recommends for my 2003 1.8T gasser is a 5,000 mile OCI (less if driven under extreme conditions). The owner's manual and the extended sludge warranty are real clear on this. Is it overkill? Possibly. Will I sway from it? You kidding?!?! It's already tough enough to hold VW to their warranties....
So basically it probably won't matter, unless you pull the TDI engine and use it in something else.
TDI snow blower?