Diesels in the News

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  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    Because we both remember the past.

    PZEV diesel systems were boasted about back then. Those prototypes were quite practical for the upcoming reduction of sulfur, but the price never came down. They are still too expensive to be competitive.

    Now he is forced to wait for diesel to show up in a hybrid system... and it will, eventually. The series hybrid with a tiny TDI could work well. In the meantime, we get misrepresentations about how Prius actually works. It's frustrating, but all I need to do is remind about the need to reduce SMOG in addition to MPG improvement.

    JOHN
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    First, PZEV is a total waste of money. Second the Prius only satisfies the needs of a infinitesimal segment of the population. If you live in a CARB state there are no decent options for great mileage in a PU or SUV. Some of us do not plan to give up our guns or SUVs. So if you would like US to cut back on fossil fuel, DIESEL or BIODIESEL is the ONLY option.

    PS
    I did my hybrid stint and glad it is behind me.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I should include SULEV II as being a waste of money also. The amount spent to clean so little from the exhaust would be a joke if it was not so widely accepted by so many that know so little about emissions.

    PZEV being the ultimate JOKE. It is like being kind of pregnant. Either you have Zero Emissions or you don't.
  • bpeeblesbpeebles Member Posts: 4,085
    While we are talking about vehicles which are named only to be acceptable to the "green crowd".... I read that a so-called "hybred" pickup truck from GM has ONLY regeneritive braking..... (No battery-driven forward accelleration at all)

    Apparently, the 'standards' which dictate what constitutes a "hybred" are left open to interpertation.

    I find it appalling that a V8 powered 1/2 ton pickup truck that charges the battery when the brakes are applied can be tagged with the label "Hybred"!

    How is this related to Diesel? I would bet that "hybred" pickup truck would be allowed in HOV lanes only because of the "hybred" label affixed to its [non-permissible content removed]-end.... while by 56MPG TDI is not even a consideration for tax-breaks!
  • KCRamKCRam Member Posts: 3,516
    ...because it's the holidays, but let's put the kill on the hybrid chat... head to the Hybrid Vehicles Board for that.

    kcram - Pickups Host
  • sladezolosladezolo Member Posts: 3
    i do sometimes leave the truck running while i fuel it. and i purged the fuel the other day and it seems to be running find now. thank you and happy new year.
  • jkinzeljkinzel Member Posts: 735
    Happy New Year Everyone

    Having read most of the article “Cities and Energy Consumption” I can only come to the conclusion that this plant is way over populated and only reinforces what I have stated in the past, we need a good plague.

    I know, rather macabre and not the most popular idea among the living to save resources and reduce pollution, but effective. It is non-discriminatory, has no social, economic or gender boundaries and can be easily transported.

    Until we can stop the world from reproducing for a few years (good luck with that plan), a naturally occurring cleansing of the earth seems the only solution. It has happened in the past and we can assume it will happen again.

    Until then good clean fuel efficient diesel passenger cars are one of our best options.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    33mpg is not bad at all for something that quick, IMHO.

    It's all relative, you have to look at the balance of power and economy. That Civic gets Good scores on both. It'll outrun most cars on the road, yet it also beat most cars in economy.

    Not quite your cake and eat it, but it is a whole lot quicker than a Civic Hybrid, too.

    C&D averaged only 19 mpg in their comparison test of compact SUVs. Relative to that average, the diesel Civic uses half as much fuel and is quicker than any of them, even the V6 models.
  • hwyhobohwyhobo Member Posts: 265
    Yes, but seriously, outside of people who put fart cans on their cars' exhaust pipes, who buys Honda Civic because they want a "sports car"? That would be pretty poor marketing niche. Just like what Honda already tried (and failed) with the hybrid Accord.

    I tend to agree with others on two points:

    1) C&D test is unrepresentative of real-life driving
    2) That engine is way too large for the Civic

    I personally hope Honda with market their diesel vehicles to compete with the hybrid offerings. That means small, fuel-efficient engines. With the same fuel efficiency, I would go for a diesel in a heartbeat for three reasons:

    1) Simplicity of the power train
    2) Longevity
    3) Torque (not acceleration)

    Accord wagon or hatch would be perfect with a small diesel. CRV might be good, too, but it would have to have a 6 speed stick for maximum fuel efficiency.

    However, I seem to be in a minority, and Honda will likely try to impress people with power and acceleration at the expense of mpg, just as all the other makes appear to do in the US. Too bad I love to live here, but the cars I like are only sold in Europe. :(
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Bout time the Big 3 got their head out of the sand..I've been ready for 10 years.

    Cole, however, expects diesel use to expand, especially among truck and SUV buyers, where gasoline fuel economy is worse but consumer demand is high.

    Diesel could let drivers achieve fuel economy gains without moving into a smaller car, said Christopher Qualters, director of diesel systems marketing at auto supplier Robert Bosch LLC. Bosch, a maker of diesel engine components and after treatments, predicts diesel will have a 15 percent stake in the U.S. market by 2015.

    "Who wouldn't want to drive the same vehicle they have now, but get 30 percent better fuel economy?" he said. "You're not asking the driver to make a sacrifice."
  • eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    the "big 3" article mentions that Chrysler dropped the price of the diesel option by $1k on the 2008 compared to 2007 cherokee diesel. nice.
  • roland3roland3 Member Posts: 431
    ... Slade, check for excessive rust in tanks (cut your filters open), also an air leak on the inlet side fuel lines and connections, also a pump can run at spec on the outlet side due to their design of having more volume that a bypass valve handles but sometimes not pull enough from the tank(s), with that kind of mileage. You might be able to get around the problem by adding one of those systems that adds a slight amount of pressure to the inlet side and more filtration. Your fuel system appears to be just on the line of not handling the slightest filter restriction.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I'm sure a 1.6l TDI would be fine for something the size of a Civic.
  • blufz1blufz1 Member Posts: 2,045
    Different strokes. I want a 2.2 to 2.4 diesel to pull my little bass boat.
  • hwyhobohwyhobo Member Posts: 265
    You want to haul with your Civic? You think that would be a mainstream application for that car? I am not opposed to it, but then make it an option, not force everyone into an inefficient solution to satisfy 0.1% of the market.
  • blufz1blufz1 Member Posts: 2,045
    It's a small 700 lb. bass boat. Got a small boat so I wouldn't have to also buy a truck to pull a bigger boat.
  • bpeeblesbpeebles Member Posts: 4,085
    Off the subject a bit - i know.... but for TOWING, it is not only the available pulling power you should be concerned about. The vehicle doing the towing should also WEIGH enough for the task at hand. Just adding more power to a underweight tow vehicle is asking for serious trouble.

    Lets leave towing to the proper vehicles.... I think this discussion about the Civic is mainly about the efficency- side of the diesel engine.

    A Civic is designed for efficency right down to the sizing of the brakes and suspension system. You may get away with strapping some skiis or a canoe to the top of it.... but not for towing.

    BTW: I used to own one of the 4-wheel -drive Civic wagons. It had the engine from the Prelude in it and 6 speed manual xmission. (but I never towed with it besides strapping a canoe to the top of it)
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    And I will bet that the V8 engine in that canoe made it one really fast canoe...maybe I need to learn about boating???... :shades: :blush: :confuse: ;) :P
  • blufz1blufz1 Member Posts: 2,045
    I towed the little boat 98k behind my 95 2.2 Accord w/ no problems and 86k behind my 2002 Accord w/ no problems. I can understand Honda not wanting to R&D a new smaller diesel for the Civic with gas at only $3-4.
  • bpeeblesbpeebles Member Posts: 4,085
    Honda does not have to R&D a diesel for the Civic. A diesel Civic has been sold outside of North America for many years.

    I do realize that gettiing the existing diesel Civic *approved* by the Feds may be an expensive undertaking.
  • blufz1blufz1 Member Posts: 2,045
    The Civic diesel is 2.2 liters. Ax was suggesting 1.6. which is too small and sluggish for most. Just my .02.
  • hwyhobohwyhobo Member Posts: 265
    If Civic diesel's only choice is 2.2, then I see (for myself) no point in buying a Civic, and might as well look at the Accord with the same engine.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Honda has sold a Civic with a much smaller diesel engine for years in the EU. It was the only way they could get the Europeans to buy their cars. They bought the engines from some other company. Now they are building the 2.2 in the UK and selling them like hotcakes. When you take into consideration that the current Civic is about the size of the older Accord. It may be a good match-up. It you cannot get 50 MPG on the highway it is a waste of money in my opinion.
  • blufz1blufz1 Member Posts: 2,045
    Let's see how they price it. If gas prices stay 3-4 they make not place a large premium on the diesels. Should be interesting.
  • roland3roland3 Member Posts: 431
    ... Most of the long term Diesel break-in is not actually ring seal related but rather the standard manufacturing process of using much more oil ring tension and sometimes an extra compression/scraper ring. This is necessary because the Diesel still has to control oil long after a gasoline engine is considered worn out. So it takes 30 K miles and more just to get the oil ring tension down close to gas engine levels. The compression seal takes longer also, due to the lubricity of the fuel; however not that long. The amount of oil ring drag might be suprising and there is quite a bit of oil ring face wear in the first 30 K before the engine is "happy".
  • blaneblane Member Posts: 2,017
    "... Most of the long term Diesel break-in is not actually ring seal related but rather the standard manufacturing process of using much more oil ring tension and sometimes an extra compression/scraper ring. This is necessary because the Diesel still has to control oil long after a gasoline engine is considered worn out. So it takes 30 K miles and more just to get the oil ring tension down close to gas engine levels. The compression seal takes longer also, due to the lubricity of the fuel; however not that long. The amount of oil ring drag might be suprising and there is quite a bit of oil ring face wear in the first 30 K before the engine is "happy".

    So... it takes three or more years for most of the world's Diesel engine drivers (who drive considerably fewer miles per year than US drivers) to finally have their Diesel engines broken-in? Just as here at home, there are millions of modern (rather than very old) vehicles on roads in Europe and highly developed nations in Asia, Latin America, etc. Those vehicles are owned by people who are clearly trading or selling them well before racking up hundreds of thousands of miles. There are around FIFTY MILLION new vehicles sold worldwide annually in recent years. People, worldwide, want CHANGE. People, worldwide, have been sold (by marketers) on the idea that NEW is desirable. While there is a substantial core that do, most people, worldwide, who can afford to do so, don't consider it their personal goal or challege to hypermile or to see for how many years they can drive the same vehicle.

    Most rational people don't have any interest in waiting years before their engines are finally broken in. They want to buy a car and have it drive the way they expect it to... from day #1.
  • roland3roland3 Member Posts: 431
    ... Blane,
    ............ it's not all that bad. It's called parasitic drag. It's just a fact of life that a Diesel has more than a gas engine. Although it might take 30 K for a Diesel to reach optimum MPG it will remain there for a very long time and even while breaking in it will achieve better MPG than a gasser. I have a proven system to solve this problem. Of course it brings some complication and initial expense.
  • blufz1blufz1 Member Posts: 2,045
    Most rational people just drive their cars. Diesel is the next practical step in U. S. passenger vehicle propulsion. Hide and watch.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Maybe they could offer 2 choices. In Europe it's common for several diesel engines to be offered on a single model.

    The 2.2l almost seems like a performance option. It's as quick as the early 90s Civic Si, but probably doesn't need to be.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Some interesting "apparent" collisions between/amongst views were expressed by Roland3 and Blane.

    A few things struck me. Roland3 did a lead in, and not to steal any thunder or rain on the parade, but, since it seems TURBO diesels appear to be the up coming product of choice, anyone who buys a turbo (gasser or diesel) should be aware this is an "animal" with its own min requirements.

    People that buy Civic gassers have a range of sensibilities from buy it and FORGETTA BOUT IT attitude to the extreme enthusiast. For my .02 cents the first attitude would NOT be a good one for the turbo diesel.

    Blane's take however valid or seemingly sensical comes form a number of back ground economic's which are different world wide, to Asian, to European, to US., which will of course affect/effect the particular Honda vehicles in respective markets. While a nameplate might be the same across, they are indeed differently "the same vehicle" or the different "samely" vehicle. If any one doubts this, just try to operate the same Honda Civic diesel in any and all markets. Indeed the most compelling example is Europe is used to 6/7 dollar diesel fuel. We are close to panic with the spectre of 3.50 RUG.

    So it makes it a minority option in the US market, to go to a fuel source product that gets 20-40% more than similar RUG to PUG products.
  • altair4altair4 Member Posts: 1,469
    You wrote:
    People that buy Civic gassers have a range of sensibilities from buy it and FORGETTA BOUT IT attitude to the extreme enthusiast. For my .02 cents the first attitude would NOT be a good one for the turbo diesel.

    I think it will be interesting to see what Honda specifies for the care and feeding of their turbodiesel. As a current VW turbo (gasser) owner, I'm curious to see if Honda is going to have some exotic oil specification that the common owner can't easily find. Also what the spec for other services.

    Question: A few people in the past have mentioned the expected lifespan on the VW TDI engine - something like 25,000 hours at a certain load. Where did this informaiton come from and how was it substantiated?
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I will agree with you! If one looks to what they have done to the gassers, I think they have doubled (2x) their nearest competitors recommended OCI's (5,000 miles for Toyota vs 10,000 for the Honda. Both of course employ OLM's. So my expectation, they will place an engineers attitude (so to speak) to the US market diesel issue. This is really a no brainer, since Honda diesels sell/sold in the European market, they in all likely hood have specified it to run on the 10-15 dollar per liter oil (33.83 oz) oils available on the European markets.They would have to spend more R & D monies to so called "dumb the specifications down". Japanese cars in general remain underdogs in the European markets.

    On the lifespan of the VW TDI, you may wish to do a google. More specificially, do a search on the web site: www.tdiclub.com/.

    Some history, the actual specification/s is/are almost a state secret, kept even closer to the vest that REAL state secrets.

    To cut to the chase, the 4 cylinder (VW) TDI has industrial applications. Industrial applications talk in terms of hours/loading. So the industrial application is specified as 25,000 HOURS at an 85% LOADING. As you have probably surmised, most cars do not run anywhere close to 85% loading. In addition almost NOBODY thinks in terms of automobiles running in hours, but they do think in terms of say 100,000 miles. (this of course is highly oxymoronic in that we think in terms of mph!!?? ) So for example if you installed an hours meter and you clicked 2000 hours to go 100,000 miles, your average would be 50 mph. So pick an average mph. (50 mph average, for example * 25,000 hours= 1,250,000 miles.) So as you can further surmise, less than 85% loading would put 25,000 hours rating as "conservative".

    Indeed one can buy and a fix an hours meter to a passenger car, but I think you understand what I am saying.
  • altair4altair4 Member Posts: 1,469
    Thanks! I'll have to pass on TDIclub.com...I'm on too many forums now. I don't need another addiction.

    Interesting you mention about people not paying attention to hours. I use my car's onboard computer to monitor the hours between oil changes. Currently, I don't let my 1.8T go beyond 200 hours which, at my average speeds, falls just around 4,800 miles. That's great because it always keeps me within the OCI mileage that VWoA demands under their extended sludge warranty. 'Course, I'm also tied to the dealer for oil changes, but I've got my paper trail in place "just in case." But I never exceed 5,000 miles, 200 hours, or 6 months, whichever comes first.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Again you have a few more pieces in which to triangulate the information. So for example a 200 hours oil change IS at 50 mph average= 10,000 miles, which specifically is what VW recommends for the OCI. So for example, since your average mph is 24 mph, you might be a good candidate for trend UOA's. This would give you real life data to adjust your OCI's accordingly.
  • roland3roland3 Member Posts: 431
    ... Talking to a guy with an '03 Dodge/Cummins. He says his info-circle does not like the latest oil specs to keep the soot/sludge at bay with the EGR engines and they are stocking up on the previous spec. There is some truth to this in that (not petro-chemist terms) as the additive package is increased (and it is) there is actually less percentage of lubricant. The additive that is increased is to keep the soot in suspension. Myself, well I run a bypass, centrifuge, filter that pulls out most of the soot because it cleans down to one micron, but I am not going to stockpile. I am a "just in time" guy and my retailer is my wherehouse.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I would not have any reason to doubt there are concerns. Now as you probably know, trucks such as you mention CAN use dyed #2 diesel (CA= NORMALLY 140 TO a MAX of 500 ppm) as long as they do not take it on road, i.e. stay on the farm, ranch, plantation, construction site, etc.

    However on the face of it, it would seem a HUGE obstacle has been removed in the soot sludge and EGR issues; by virtue of the fact the LSD ( previously 500 ppm) has gone to ULSD (15ppm) and biodiesel (down to as low as ZERO ppm. ) This represent drops of between 97% to virtually incalcuable!!! Indeed the use of either fuel ULSD and biodiesel, in some instances has made the previously important measure of TBN almost a NON issue over the same OCI.

    As a result, depending on a series of the other numbers and the interrelationships of those numbers on a trend UOA , even longer OCI's are becoming the norm.

    Indeed the so called "long life" or VW 507.00 (newest) specifications the recommended range is between 12,000 to 30,000 miles. (Cummins/etc do not use VW 507.00 specified oil.)
  • blufz1blufz1 Member Posts: 2,045
    Got my Feb Car and Driver today. The civic diesel runs 1/4 in 15.9 @ 86. Diesel adds 368 lbs. So a U.S. Accord might weigh 3250+368+75 for auto+50 for U.S. emmission stuff =3700-3800 lbs. The 2.2 is the smallest I would want. Just my .02 but I've been wrong before :)
  • blufz1blufz1 Member Posts: 2,045
    I don't think a 3700 lb. Diesel Accord can get 50 MPG after seeing this C&D report! What do you guys think?
  • bpeeblesbpeebles Member Posts: 4,085
    Basic physics tells us that once you are at a constant speed, the WEIGHT is not a large factor to maintain the speed. The biggest factor is friction. With an automobile, this would be a mix of air friction, road-friction (tires) and drivetrain friction (xmission, gears...etc). None of these are affected very much by the WEIGHT of the vehicle.

    Given this, the highway MPG, theoreticly, could be higher than you may think.

    All things being equal.... a heavier automobile would have nearly identical highway MPG. The stop-n-go driving would take a hit in MPG though. (again, because of the laws of physics which define an object in motion and how it behaves when a force in applied to it.)

    Let me put it another way... My VW Jetta TDI with 4 adults and the AC on full can acheive 57 MPG on the highway. (15 hour trip) I beleive the weight of Jetta and 4 adults is MORE than your 3700lb Accord.

    Of course, hilly terrain may make weight become a larger factor in the equation.
  • blufz1blufz1 Member Posts: 2,045
    Thanks, interesting. Looks like it will be close. Yours is 1.8,I think, the Honda is 2.2 with probably more drag(Accord size). Thanks again,stay smooth.
  • hwyhobohwyhobo Member Posts: 265
    Now that VW has committed itself to bringing the 2.0 TDI, does anyone know if Audi may also receive a similar treatment? A3? Perhaps even A4 wagon? It's available in Europe.
  • roland3roland3 Member Posts: 431
    ... In the weight range we are talking and the consideration of highway speeds I think aero is more of a factor. So I agree with two of the replies.
  • roland3roland3 Member Posts: 431
    ... In the weight range we are talking and the consideration of highway speeds I think aero is more of a factor. So I agree with two of the replies.
  • altair4altair4 Member Posts: 1,469
    You wrote:
    So for example a 200 hours oil change IS at 50 mph average= 10,000 miles, which specifically is what VW recommends for the OCI.

    Ruking1, just to clarify...what VWoA specifically recommends for my 2003 1.8T gasser is a 5,000 mile OCI (less if driven under extreme conditions). The owner's manual and the extended sludge warranty are real clear on this. Is it overkill? Possibly. Will I sway from it? You kidding?!?! It's already tough enough to hold VW to their warranties....
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I won't dispute the fact that diesels are very durable, but the fact is gas engines tend to outlive the rest of the car anyway.

    So basically it probably won't matter, unless you pull the TDI engine and use it in something else.

    TDI snow blower? :D
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Right and not to dissuade you, I actually do have the Bentley's technical data for the 1.8T.GASSER. Don't leave out the part where I said you should consider TREND UOA's. However the thread is a diesel one. The diesel recommendation IS 10,000 miles.
  • roland3roland3 Member Posts: 431
    ... Been seeing a rash of studies, google news and elsewhere, about the ill effects of Diesel exhaust. To justify funding they might be releasing them all recently because it has so little to do with the future ( coincidence ??? ). Industry wide: off highway, large commercial and the passenger fleet, I doubt we have even one percent with particulate traps. So all the studies (my opinion) became obsolete during their tenure because, most of the problem is related to soot and particulate matter that might be less than a gasoline engine in the future, as particulate traps will be in most every Diesel application. I also suspect few of the studies used engines with the "modern marvel" ultra-high pressure common rail fuel systems that are much cleaner than earlier engines even without after-treatment.
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