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I was on the NHTSA site and found this partial explanation by Toyota of the engine stalling problem:
THE VEHICLE WILL CONTINUE TO OPERATE IN THE ELECTRIC MODE AND THE ELECTRICALLY-POWERED BRAKE AND STEERING OPERATION WILL CONTINUE TO FUNCTION NORMALLY (when the gas engine stalls)
"Electrically powered brake and steering operation" --- does that imply that the brakes are electrically operated?
Similarly, NBC got on the bandwagon a few years back, and "proved" that the GM pickups of the era were all going to blow up if they were hit from the side - when they couldn't make it happen consistently for the camera, they rigged a couple with explosives just to make sure.
Look, folks, this thread had gotten completely out of hand because there appear to be a few who are looking for any reason to prove that the Prius is some kind of futuristic technological deathtrap, or some example of Toyota corporate hubris run amok. I don't believe this for a minute....but one thing's for sure: what network TV has to say about it can be counted on to be relevant only to their desire for ratings. Just ask Audi...
If there are widespread braking problems with this car [as opposed to the occasional failure that can be statistically calculated to be common to any modern vehicle], I am waiting for real evidence. Nothing I've read on this site constitutes that kind of evidence, and I don't expect to get any from CBS, much less "all of the pertinent facts".
Allowing discussion of problems and solutions without getting into this "I love hybrids and you're wrong if you don't" mode would be a pleasant change of pace.
I don't have a stake in this one way or the other, but I do recognize the symptoms of rumor-driven anxiety that has no seeming basis in fact. People rushed to unload their perfectly fine Audis in the early '80s because they were convinced ("As seen on TV!") that their cars were some kind of rolling Frankenstein monster. The technology surrounding the Prius is hardly new...I just don't get the arm-waving that's going on here.
And one final point - I just checked our friend's Prius in the condo garage, and what I see is a regular old hydraulic brake system that has added the re-gen connection for recharging the batteries. The only way the system can completely fail is for all or most of the fluid to be drained - WHICH IS THE SAME WAY IT CAN HAPPEN ON EVERY OTHER CAR ON THE ROAD. It happens every day, usually because of a brake line that gets severed or a master cylinder that leaks....but it's just irrelevant to a discussion of Prius software failures. That is what this thread was about?
--What program? And what day?
the problem here with your argument is in part because of the complexity of these systems and their heavy reliance on computer technology; everyone is sort of at the mercy of the manufacturers (i'm not speaking toyota prius here) to disclose problems, and the public must accept what is released in a cryptic recall notice or TSB announcement without understanding too much more about the whole of the problem, or the systems involved...
in general, we don't have independent means to pull apart these systems and look for weaknesses or attempt to assess root cause using a myriad of instrumentation. it's pretty impractical it can be done by you and me.
you write: "when a technological question is addressed by a number of people who are unqualified to offer up much in the way of new data"
true, but then, where would the data be captured, addressed, and by whom?
Edmunds is one place where people can communicate their anecdotes regarding problems they experience, and where people can learn more about things they should anticipate and push their dealers on if necessary.
it's not large N, and it is anecdotal, and it's reported by the common person, often in questionable detail, but it can be useful for us all non-the-less.
unfortunately, we don't actually know if this is a software problem or not. it may be completely appropriate for this forum.
the fact is, this is a new braking system. i'm with you on the possibility that it is all mechanical (air in the lines, bad master cylinder, loss of fluid, etc). but with the integration of embedded control (and also in this case the need to simulate feedback in the operator / system loop because of the implementation of the braking system) - i'm personally not ruling out the computer system or the human/computer interface design as potentially contributing either...
i think these sort of discussions are a natural consequence of the introduction of these technologies, and our efforts to wrap our heads around them. it doesn't matter the manufacturer, all of them are adopting new and more complex technologies.
when you look at all the P+S forums, some of the failures seem mighty bizzare. when things work, they really make the difference in terms of performance, emissions, safety, etc.
when they don't work, there are sometimes unforseen consequences.
the prius appears to be a quality-made vehicle which is in high demand. people do vote with their $$$, and they have confidence in toyota and their vehicle designs.
1. The "Dual redundant system" required on all cars - isn't this the Emergency brake, which is entirely mechanical?
2. Thanks to all who posted that the Prius does indeed run the braking system through the computers. Unfortunately, this makes the software suspect in these instances, for the simple reason that brakes are a mechanical system; if there is no evidence of mechanical failure in the system (brake fluid missing, etc), then the software becomes a prime suspect. SOMETHING caused the vehicle to keep moving instead of stopping.
3. Everyone keeps quoting Prius material that says how the system is supposed to operate, but the more I see the more I think that the software may be implicated. Those "fail-safe" descriptions mean that mechanical failure should be the only reason for brake failure. See #2 for the conclusion.
4. Thanks to those who pointed out that all modern cars use computer controlled ABS systems; however those systems do not attempt to use the drive system as part of the braking system. Therefore they are not as prone to having the main system software interfere with the brakes. Also, these separate ABS subsystems are now a very mature technology, unlike the Prius "integrated braking" system.
5. I would never, never stake my Edmunds membership on this or any other issue being proven as a software problem. (just for reference) :shades:
I still do not think that this makes the Prius unsafe, even if it is proven to be a software problem. There are many tens of thousands of Prius on the road, and only a couple have had brake problems. I would still test drive one if I were in the market for a small fuel efficient vehicle.
Being (like MidCow) in the software industry, I am very aware of just how difficult it is to fully test extremely complex software. The interactions become so intricate that they cannot be fully tested in the lab. I know that Toyota has done their best, but I think that at least some of these problems will continue to crop up.
I'll quote the famous engineer Scotty here: "The more you mess with the pipes, the easier it is to clog up the plumbing".
i tend to agree with you, for the most part.
it would be great to think that the posts here have some influence when a manufacturer should address some problem.
Much of this software hullabullo is cuase by imporperly trained Toyota service centers.
Good luck,
MidCow
Or they could have allowed some kind of interference to mess up the software load, causing scrambled code, then mistakenly thought they had killed the CPU.
Hello earlwayne. According to what I've read this is a real problem. You should perhaps add your info to the "Prius Software Problems" board and maybe also to the NHTSA site. You should also call your selling dealer and insist that they fix your car! If it needs the software upgrade (the recall) they should do that right away. You don't want to be driving a car that might just die at a really inopportune time.
Good luck.
My '05 Prius is averaging around 42 MPG. That's around 428 gallons per year. Again, at $2 a gallon, that's $856 a year in gas. Or a savings of $674 a year. And as gas prices go up, the savings go up.
Will I ever recoup my "hybrid premium"? By my calculations, clearly. Sure, I'll have to own the car for 6 years or more, but I already anticipate doing that. I'm not the kind of person who must have a new car as soon as the lease/loan is done.
The reasons for which someone buys a car is as varied as the number of cars there are out in the market these days. I bought a Prius because I liked the appeal of the car. The high gas milleage, the technology behind the car, the varioous features it came with, Toyota's reliability, the practicality of the car, and even the look of the car all were part of that appeal. Could I have spent less and gotten a car with nearly as good gas milleage? Sure. But would I have gotten as much a car as I have now? I doubt it. There are features I have now that make my life in the car a lot easier, more comfortable, and safer. Make no mistake, I went into this knowing what kind of car I wanted to replace my aging RAV4. And the Prius fit my needs more or less perfectly.
As to the Prius software recall, I personally have not experienced the problem in the 22K miles I've put on the car. When the car comes up for it's 25K maintenace, I'll have the software update done.
Am I playing Russian Roulette by driving it? I don't think so. No more so than any other car out there. In fact, I'm willing to bet there are cars out on the road now with far more dangerous recalls issued for them.
Some people will never understand the allure of a hybrid. Just as some people will never understand the allure of a Hummer. Or a BMW. Or a Hyundai. Or a Mercedes-Benz. Or a Cadillac. Or any number of cars out there that is different from the one that someone else drives.
What I don't get is why people need to constantly bash something that is new/different from what they normally drive. Must be psychologically satisfying, I guess.
Of course you are assuming that you don't have to replace your traction battery. In your case since you do keep cars a long time, you might plan for some battery cost in your economic analysis.
"What I don't get is why people need to constantly bash something that is new/different from what they normally drive. Must be psychologically satisfying, I guess. "
I think a lot of what you read is discussion of hybrid advantages/disavantages rather than bashing. Yes, the Prius, for example, has a lot of technological applications and there is some 'Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt', but that is a normal human reaction to any change. and the more dramatic the change, the more pronounced the reaction. The Prius certainly makes a statement!
Anyway, congratulations on your Prius, good luck, and I hope you don't encounter any Prius software problems which is actually the topic of this thread.
soon to be: double sixes
MidCow
I'm willing to bet that the FUD surrounding this car is similar to that of other great leaps in automotive technology, most notably the automatic transmission and fuel injection. I'm sure there are other examples out there, but those two come to mind.
Given that I live/drive in California, I'm waranteed for 10 years/150K miles. So, yes, I might have to plunk 2 or 3 grand down for a new traction battery in 7 or 8 years. I'm used to having to put that kinda money into a car once it reaches a certain age/milleage. I did it for the RAV4. That was equivalent to about 6 months worth of car payments. It was worth doing back then to get another couple of years out of the car. And I anticipate it being worth it to do for the Prius if the need arises, whether it's a traction battery issue or something else.
Beginning 2006, purchasers of new hybrids will get a tax break. My Prius will be arriving in late January, and I will get a tax break of over $3000.
Then something very strange happened which was not covered in the Toyota warning to Prius owners. “The moment my car was detached from the tow truck, I saw the car moving forward and it hit the truck. My car was damaged on the front fender."
Has this dude ever heard of the PARKING/EMERGENCY Brake? My Gosh people !!!
It is the tow truck driver's responsibility.
The bigger issue is the fact that Prius are still stalling. Is it because they have not been updated? I think some Prius owners are afraid to get the updates, because they may get lower mileage. This was reported to NHTSA in the last 3 weeks. Has Toyota found the stalling Problem?
I WAS DRIVING ON HIGHWAY AT 70 MPH AND VEHICLE STALLED. I COASTED OVER TO ROAD SHOULDER, TURNED OFF VEHICLE POWER AND RESTARTED VEHICLE WITHOUT ISSUE. CALLED TOYOTA DEALER AND WAS TOLD MY VIN WAS NOT PART OF THE SOFTWARE RECALL FOR SOFTWARE PROBLEM FOR STALLING ENGINES. THIS COULD HAVE CAUSED A SERIOUS PROBLEM IF I WAS NOT IN THE RIGHT LANE AND ABLE TO MOVE TO SHOULDER, CLEARING TRAFFIC IMMEDIATELY
November 2005
AFTER TOYOTA'S RECALLING 75,000 PRIUS IN U.S., I TOOK MY 2005 PRIUS INTO TORRANCE TOYOTA(310-325-75000) TO HAVE THE SOFTWARE"GLITCH"REPAIRED. MICHAEL GALLAGHER(SERVICE ADVISOR) TOLD ME THERE IS ADDITIONAL GLITCHES AND NOW MY CAR IS INOPERABLE
It is quite possible there are more glitches to come. While I'm sure Toyota did it's best to test the code, it appears that, at this point, they are in the "Microsoft Mode" (let the customers beta test the software).
But they will eventually get everything right, unless there is an underlying hardware issue with the CPU or electrical charging system (supplying power to the CPU). In the latter cases, they will still get the bottom of the issue, but it will take longer...
FWIW, if I were shopping for a small car, I would still consider the Prius in my comparisons. The Software failures have been fairly rare, considering the number of vehicles on the road. Of course that isn't much comfort to those who happen to have experienced the problems!
Actually, I think Toyota has it's hands full just making sure all that custom hybrid code is working under all circumstances.
H'mm flash back 20 years, the only car mentioned in sudden braking problems in the past was Audi , not other car manufacturers. Maybe, just maybe, the software problems are characteristic of Priuses or Prii and not BMW series 3s , Lexus, Mercedes, etc.
By the way, there is not quite the risk level with XP software fixes as there are with Prius software fixes. An XP failure doesn't carry with it the potential possbility of a fatality cuase by engine shutdown or faulty braking.
Double sixes,
MidCow
P.S.- Hybrids are not economically feasible!
Good to hear from you. I guess you are back on track to buy a Prius. Hope you enjoy. Well I got a call a week ago a new 2006 package #6 came in that I could purchase at MSRP; I declined. Also, I have been receiving emails from various other Toyota dealers that they have Priuses available. Not trying to opne dicussion up again, but after careful anaylsis I could not justify sacrificing fun, performance, and the loss of standard shift for the mileage gained by a Prius.
I hope you were joking about a used Kia. The 10 year warranty is only on the drive train but 5yr 60,000 miles is good. However, I understand that Kia has one of the worst repair records, even though it is improving. It is a weak engine and the mileage is only okay at 25/33
I ordered a Civic Si 6-speed 23/32 mpg and fun, performance, relability
Have a Merry Christmas,
MidCow
I am afraid it is more complicated when it comes to the drive component software. BMW is at the pinnacle of computer use in controlling the engine and transmission; their code is mature, having been used in increasing amounts since the 1980's.
The Prius has been around since 1997, but it has not had the large number of vehicles using the software, which would have exposed code problems. Also, the 2nd generation is likely a more complex code package (it added bluetooth, for example). In any case, Toyota is at an early point in the software maturity cycle with the Prius. There will be problems that have to be solved.
It seems like the Toyota Prius software problems, unlike the software problems of other cars since almost every car has microcomputers, are potentailly causing fatalities.
Good luck , hope you see the light soon,
MidCow
You bought the car in April. You never drove it in really cold weather until December. In cold weather it is completely normal for the engine to sometimes be on even though the car is on all electric or the battery is being regenerated according to the screen. Instead of the 99.9 MPG that you expect to see, you will see much lower mileage.
In cold weather, you will absolutely get much worse gas mileage than in warm weather. So even though you got 50 MPG in warm weather, 45 MPG is quite good in cold weather.
So it is just a coincidence that the increased use of the gas engine and lower mileage started after the recall. The real reason is the colder weather.
But, I also had the recall performed in November, and immediately experienced a drop in gas mileage from 41-45 to 38-42 mpg. I also noted that the engine would re-start before depressing on the accelerator, after coming to a complete stop. I reported these problems to the Toyota Service Center, and they indicated that the car checked out ok. The Prius technician also indicated that he was using an older version of the scanning/diagnostic software, because of previously reported problems with the updated version, ie. fried ECU. He also indicated that the software recall also clear any historical performance data, which the software uses to enhance car's performance, and that I should try to reduce my speed (usually drive 5-15 mph over posted speed) to affect the performance data captured.
Well I gave it a shot, and reduced highway speed from 75-80 mph to 70-75 mph (any lower would have created a traffic hazard), resulting in gas mileage increasing from 38-42 to 40-42 mpg in cold weather. I then started to increase my mph to 75-80 and still averaged 40-42 mpg.
So could the clearing of the performance data cause the software to adjust the performance of the vehicle resulting in lower gas mileage until enough data was rec-aptured?
The only hybrid car with software problems is the Prius, Hence its own dedicated "Prius software problem" thread.
Cheers,
MidCow
That is interesting. You are not the only one with that complaint. I am wondering if Toyota has had to make changes in the way the car operates to eliminate the stalling. It sounds like you have kept pretty close records of your mileage. I would document every tank on a spreadsheet. If this drop in mileage is directly a result of the software upgrade you have a legitimate complaint. keep us posted.