Toyota Prius Software Problems

gagrice

By your standard, Gary, are car makers obligated to send a letter to owners for every little blip and minor problem that occurs to an INCREDIBLY SMALL NUMBER of owners of any particular car?

Yes I do. I got a letter on one of my GM trucks about a bolt that may work loose on the passengers seat. Mine never did but I took it in and they put a different bolt in the seat. This software issue was known for a long time. Toyota came up with at least two software updates. Do you think all those people would have reported the problem to the NHTSA if the dealers were taking care of the problem? I don't think so. Those reports were by frustrated owners that were towed in and the dealer reset the computer and told them it may happen again.

As far as all the little problems you are having with your HCH, I would jump on Honda and get them resolved. The issues you mentioned don't seem important to me. Stalling at 65 MPH on the Interstate is a tad bit more dangerous than your fuel calculator being off by 1 MPG.

falconone

I wonder if GM had to take a loan out for the postage.

rg9

Toyota blew this one big time. Toyota should have been upfront and proactive on this issue, but they chose not to be.

Toyota chose to dodge and weave the problem. Toyota tried to minimize the issue, saying stalling at highway speeds wasn't an issue bacuse you could limp off the road. Toyota said it wasn't a problem because there weren't any accidents reported (yet).

If NHTSA did not step up to the plate and hold them accountable, and if it weren't for the hundreds of consumers who took the time to file reports with NHTSA, Toyota would still be dragging this thing out like they have for the past two model years.

larsb

It costs a LOT of money to have a recall. The company's reputation takes a little hit, and the service fees are covered, but still PAID to the dealer by the Corporation.

So there is no good reason ( other than critical, known safety issues ) to RUSH into a recall - do the investigation and see if it's absolutely required before you do it. No one died, no one was endangered, no cars were damaged, no one's insurance went up.

Vehicle recalls should be a last resort, not a first step. Dont forget - car makers are in business to make money, not to spend money fixing every little glitch that might only affect 1 in 10,000 owners.

falconone

Toyota did so expeditiously and certainly NOT under the radar. As evidenced by your date of joining Edmunds and your immediate jump to THIS forum, one must assume that you're agenda is merely to bash Toyota for being successful in the hybrid market. I guess their success has brought on the beast in some people.

larsb

From a current (today 10-14-05) news story:

"Toyota plans to notify buyers of its Prius hybrid that the car could potentially stall out while driving due to a software bug in the Electronic Control Module (ECM). The problem affects approximately 75,000 cars, although only 33 official complaints have been lodged thus far.

Due to the bug, the Prius' gasoline engine could stall out while driving between 35 and 65 miles per hour. However, the car's electric engine would take over, enabling a driver to safely reach the side of the road. Upon stopping, the gasoline engine would properly restart, Toyota says."

That's a whopping

0.00044 percent

of the recalled cars which have had a problem. Woo, that's a HUGE problem ! :P

mdaffron

Actually ...

It's 0.044 percent. You forgot to move your decimal point two places to the right.

Still a small number though --

Meade

bruneau1

While I encourage and recognize the necessity to increase fuel economy in this country, I don't know if the hybrid route is the way to go. It would make more sense to produce smaller more economical vehicles that don't require expensive technology, don't use resources to produce batteries of unknown life, reliability, and which will be difficult to dispose of. No one will really save money with a hybrid considering the large initial cost. It also isn't really germane to talk about recalls on other vehicles. Toyota has a problem. Anyway, the Prius is ugly and who needs a really fast hybrid Highlander.

midnightcowboy

Too me, making a problem seem insignificant or trying to make it seem insignificant, instead of owning up to the 75,000 or 160,000 recalls(depending on the source) is DENIAL that the problem really exists. Oh it's just an anomaly Oh! it's only a few cases and it is statistically insignificant.

By the way did you know the HSD CVT planetary transmission has GEARS ?

Anyway, I hope Toyota finally owns up to the problem/s and fixes everyone's car without any additional incidents.

YMMV,

MidCow

larsb

quote Meade-"It's 0.044 percent. You forgot to move your decimal point two places to the right."-end quote

No big deal, but actually, unless my calculator is wrong, 33 divided by 75000 (seventy five thousand) comes to

0.00044

I'm no math whiz, but I think that comes to 4.4 thousandths of 1 percent.

uga91

"That's a whopping

0.00044 percent

of the recalled cars which have had a problem. Woo, that's a HUGE problem !"

How many more would have to fail to be a big problem? Are we waiting for people to start dying before we take this stalling issue seriously? You folks are funny. This is a HUGE issue. You equate it to a scratch on the steering column or a mileage figure being off. This is a matter of life and death. Toyota is hanging thier whole auto company on fuel mileage right now--watch the ads on TV. If the Prius turns into a dangerous vehicle--and I hope it does not--it will become the next Pinto instead of the savior of the world's fuel supply.

rg9

Some of you are providing perfect examples of how some people bash anyone who has had this stalling defect with the Prius, and dare to complain about it.

Some people even distort the numbers to try to minimize the problem.

According to NHTSA, there were 6,697 warranty claims for stalling.

That works out to 9% of all Prius's, yes that's almost 1 in 10, not .00044 or whatever some would like us to believe.

The 9% number is much more widespread than people thought, and must really come as a shock to those who thought only 36 people had the problem, and affected only .00044% of the owners.

We never would have know how truly widespread this problem is except for the NHTSA investigation.

Fortunately, NHTSA said they will continue to monitor the problem and see if the repair will actually fix the defect

gagrice

33 divided by 75000 (seventy five thousand) comes to

If you check ODI there is well over 100 stalling reports on the 2004-2005 Prius. Toyota has admitted that the potential for failure exists in all 160,000 Prius they have sold world wide. Hopefully people will get the upgrades & not just throw the notice in the trash.

larsb

"According to NHTSA, there were 6,697 warranty claims for the stalling problem. "

Those are people who got the software update notice and got the update done at Toyota's cost - that is NOT people who had the stalling problem !!

You think it would have taken this long if 6697 people had stalled on the road? Get REAL !!

Let's not pass around falsehoods people !!! :mad:

rg9

6,697 is the number of warranty claims for stalling problems per the NHTSA.

stevedebi

The point of the software error is not how many cars happened to come into the exact problem boundaries and actually failed.

The point of this forum and this recall is that each and every Prius out there (except for those that have already been fixed) has the software problem residing in the computer code, just waiting for that "perfect storm" of conditions that cause it to fail.

It is true that the exact conditions apparently have not occurred often.

I applaud Toyota for admitting the error and recalling the cars so that everyone driving the Prius can feel confident that they will not experience this problem.

We should also note that part of the premise of estabilishing this forum is that the Prius is somewhat unique in it's software, and I think this recall validates this as fact. I know of no other car in which all of the warning lights illuminating would cause the entire propulsion system to fail.

Of course, if any other car lost it's ICE, it would stop moving pretty soon anyway. So there is some benefit to having dual propulsion.

This is not to detract in any way from the quality and concept of hybrids or the Prius. It is a new but good technology, and the "kinks" will be worked out in time.

rg9

I agree, downplaying the defect does a disservice to owners. Things like claiming the defect only affected like 36 people is a joke.

if Toyota's feet weren't held to the fire through the opening of the Investigation, Toyota would have dragged this out for another model year.

falconone

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I actually like the sleak lines of the Prius. Different from anything on the road. Sorta reminds me of the old Citreon cars. Carefuly when you say UGLY. People may think your ugly, yet again some people may find you attractive. That's what makes the world go around.

gagrice

You think it would have taken this long if 6697 people had stalled on the road? Get REAL !!

I think you should do a little more research before you speak. The NHTSA report I am looking at indicates that there was 6,697 CLAIMS that could be related to the stalling problem. Hopefully more than that would have gone in to have the update done, Also Toyota in their letter to the NHTSA identified 416 cases of stalling that were reported to them. We may never know the full extent. If this fix resolves the stalling all will be good. Investigation PE05-029 also notes that ODI received 166 complaints.

falconone

At least Toyota solved the problem swiftly. What's wrong with that? Your motives in this forum are certainly suspect since you joined today and ALL your posts are cynical of Toyota. Your posts have no validity to them. Post some links to support your allegations.

larsb

Gary, you cannot for one second honestly believe (and I know you cannot because you are a smart guy) that there were anything near 6697 people who had stalling problems, can you?

The 416 cases are not 416 people left for dead on the highway. These are people who had stalled Priuses. Are you prepared to say that all 416 of them were because of the one identifed software glitch? I think the odds of that are SLIM to NONE.

The 6697 CLAIMS were people who took Toyota up on the "software updates" based on a letter the owners got, not 6697 people who had stalls !! MY Gosh people, listen to yourselves !!

rg9

I thought you said it was only 33 people who had the problem?

The results of the government's investigation into the stalling defect clearly say the defect is much more widespread than that.

larsb

so I am giving him the benefit of the doubt.

stevedebi

"I thought you said it was only 33 people who had the problem?

The results of the government's investigation into the stalling defect clearly say the defect is much more widespread than that."

My own count was around 36 separate reports, but that was several weeks ago.

However the defect is in all Prius - it simply is very hard to get to the exact circumstances that trigger the software error. I'm pretty sure that 150,000 units is just about all of the second generation (2004+) model Prius.

falconone

There are two Prius forums that I participate in. I also read quite a bit more as well. These forums have thousands of unique users and polls have been taken. There have been people that had the software issue, but once they had it updated, they were fine. The percentage was very, very low. I have to attribute that to the fact that the results are skewed. Why? Well the majority of the participants in these forums are well informed and have already had their update performed. Now that the Prius is in the hands of "typical drivers" i.e. non enthusiasts, they are clueless as to what the heck is going on with their car. I am quite sure that there will remain many, many cars out there that remain un-updated (is that a word?).

rg9

The 36 number must be a bogus number the PR people are releasing to the media, it certainly isn't NHTSA because their invesigation clearly shows more than 400 people took the time and made the effort to file a complaint.

Thankfully due to the governments investigation into the defect, Toyota was forced to release the hundreds of formal complaints written directly to Toyota about the stalling problem. Once that info got out, Toyota could not hide behind the "its only 36 people" fallacy.

gagrice

This NHTSA document lists the 6697 stalling related complaints. You decide for yourself.

http://199.79.180.163/prepos/files/Artemis/Public/Pursuits/2005/PE/INCLA-PE05029-22129.PDF-

This next document from Toyota refers to the 416 cases they have documented. See page 3 response 2. There are several other documents on file with the NHTSA pertaining to the stalling of the Prius. It is not limited to 33 isolated cases I can assure you of that.

http://199.79.180.163/prepos/files/Artemis/Public/Pursuits/2005/PE/INRL-PE05029-20938P.pdf-

larsb

The NHTSA quote describing the 6697 is:

"warranty claims related to vehicle conditions that could cause gas engine stalling"

That's a lot of possible causes, not all related to the one software update that is causing the recall.

I'd love to know the source of that number, which we will never know. Was that as reported to NHTSA by owners? As reported by Toyota?

Seems like a very undefinable and nebulous number.

But what it does NOT represent is 6697 stalled Priuses, under any translation.

gagrice

That's a lot of possible causes, not all related to the one software update that is causing the recall.

Toyota better hope that it is related to that one software update, or they are in real deep trouble. Why is it so hard to accept that this was not an isolated problem? Especially now that Toyota has accepted it. You also act like I and others made up the numbers in the NHTSA report. Maybe you should tell us what it means. Maybe you can find some evidence that substantiates your claims. When over a hundred people go so far as to complain to the Federal government about a problem with their cars, that indicates a much bigger problem than just those people. Most people will not do anything just drive till it happens again. Hoping that Toyota will figure it out. How many different problems has Toyota found so far? Read the Toyota response.

In its August 26, 2005 response to ODI's information request, Toyota identified various conditions that could cause the subject vehicles to experience a gas engine stall. If this happens, the driver is alerted by an audible sound and various warning lights. The vehicle will continue to operate in the electric mode and the electrically-powered brake and steering operation will continue to function normally.

falconone

I wouldn't worry too much about Toyota. Their strong PR machine can get them out of any jam. I'd be worried about GM. Their sales were off 56% from a year ago. Since the issue of stalling was mentioned in May it did nothing to slow the unprecedented success of the Prius. The rampant anti-hybid posts in all these forums is clearly evident that they're worried about hybrids. Why on earth, I have no idea.

sr45

Asked the Toyota Dealer a few months ago about this Prius software problem, and was told immediately ( " Oh, that has been taken care of already " ) that the glitch had already been fixed, when clearly it was not and is only now being addressed today, and not a few months ago. I was looking into purchasing a Prius at the time, so clearly at least, this individual did not know what he was talking about or was misleading me. Just trying to sell another Prius, no matter what....

falconone

Don't ever believe a dealer. They know less than you!

bikeman3

To all above NHTSA site is a fraud, messages from consumers imagining problems and many repeat entries

hybridlover69

Since there is so much anti-hybrid sentiment, I would not be surprised if there are bogus postings there.

railroadjames

I've just finished reading thru the last 3 pages of this site and all I can truthfully say is...WHEW!!! Everybody take a deep breath and say after me...."The Prius will survive!" Toyota will defend this hybrid product and take care of ALL customers. Will there be a few customers with complaints and dissatisfaction? YEP!! Always have been and always will be. For those of you who choose to condemn the Prius well...thats your choice. I personally, (with 26K miles) see no relative concern but I will continue to take good care of my 04' Prius that has delivered on all counts. For the "naysayers" ...keep it up! The truth will out and even you will eventually accept the changing modes of the automobile in this everchanging world.
Railroadjames(lets all remember that we share common bonds here)(we enjoy our cars)

hybridlover69

30k plus miles here and nary a squeek. Car is incredible. All I can say is that I find it ironic that so many people park their disdain for hybrids (mainly the Prius) right in these boards. What the heck do they think they will get out of it? It cracks me up. The more they post the angrier they get. LOL... I wish I could see their faces as their typing their hate! Makes ya wanna go hmmmmmm.

Sylvia

A bit of a segway here, but the main purpose of this topic when it began was for people who own a Prius and were experiencing a software problem and wanted to compare situations.

If you do not own a Prius, do not wish to offer productive support or are simply here to bash and gripe, please note that there are other discussions in which to voice an opinion.

Please, let's not stifle a discussion that can be helpful to many.

If you want to take this matter up with me, you will find my email in my profile.

Non-Prius owners in here being counterproductive will have posts removed with no TOU.

If you want to discuss Toyota's handling of issues with vehicles, please start a new discussion by clicking Add a Discussion in the Hybrid Vehicles board.

Many thanks!

falconone

Sylvia... you just narrowed down the participants to practically nothing. Perhaps you should cross post and get your point across.

jrct9454

It suddenly seemed as if this recall was an excuse for everyone with an axe to grind about the Prius to come leaping out of the woodwork. Enough, already....

falconone

Agreed.... They should get over it already.

twoprius

In early Sept 2005 my wife's Prius (we have two 2004 package 9 (BC) and love them both with ~15 k well serviced miles on each) "stalled" as she merged into moderate traffic on the highway. That means the ICE failed to "automatically start" and she was suddenly "trapped" in electric motor mode. She successfully and slowly made the next exit about a mile away with one pink bar on the battery display and lots (master, check engine, ABS, VSC etc) of lights "on" in the dash display. She was stranded... but it was 10 AM on a nice sunny day in a very nice area a couple of miles from both home and the original dealer. She called the dealer who instructed her to have AAA tow it in.... and the dealer determined corrupted CPU as "cause" (P3191, P3190, P0A0F) and loaded "new software" per Special Service Campaign 40D applying tech bulletin EG047-04 to EG4017 to reprogram Engine ECU that the dealer very conveniently already had on hand for the issue.

I reached out to Toyota about this issue where my official assigned Prius Consultant was really no help or comfort to me and I turned to NHTSA where we filed a formal complaint. So, we are one of the few (~3 dozen) public complaints now on public file at NHTSA. As I have some experience with complex machine control software I was not happy with the Toyota response(s) and they lost my confidence.

Concerned about the reliability of my car I took my Prius into the same dealer with my "stall" concern and they volunteered to reprogram the ECU with "updated" software at that minute...done late Sept!

I told other Prius Owners that I know that they needed to get the newest software loaded as Toyota was not being fast enough resolving the breakdown issue... we are very glad to see a special service bulletin "recall"!!

motownusa

Thanks for your insightful post. My father owns an 05 Prius which was not part of the recall campaign so I can assume it already has the updated software. I think if the Toyota dealers were a little more forthcoming about telling its customer to get the TSB done as soon as possible, Toyota could have avoided the recall and all the negative publicity it generates. That is one of the reason the problem has been somewhat blown out of proportion. Anyway this forum is an invaluable tool for current and future Prius owner so keep us updated about your ownership experience.

hybridlover69

Try a new dealer. Also a certified letter to Toyota corporate helps. I did that with a DC vehicle I once owned and it does help.

midnightcowboy

I will segue out after giving you a link to some information:

http://money.cnn.com/2005/10/14/Autos/prius_recall.reut/index.htm?section=money_latest

Good luck in getting the problems fixed!

Cheers,

MidCow

falconone

We all know already. It's been cross posted about 50 times. I'm glad it's only a quick software flash.

eprupis

I purchased an '04 Prius in March, 2004. Within a couple of months, I received a notice from Toyota directing me to have a software patch installed and I had it done. Does this cover the recall? My car has never misbehaved except for a failure of the display module which was quickly replaced and did not affect the drivabilityof the car even in its failed mode. Ernest Prupis

falconone

Call up Toyota with your VIN and find out. There is also a website that you can type in the last digits of your VIN and it will tell you what is needed. I have to locate the site and then I'll post it here.

falconone

Here is a link where you can type in the remainder of your Prius VIN to see if it part of the SSC.

http://50preflash.imagespm.info/fra_home.cfm

jdenenberg

I took my 2004 into the dealer yesterday (Tuesday) morning for a front bumper refurb (great deal at $259, Stevens Toyota - Bristol, CT) and asked to have the recall done. The dealer was a little hesitant as they had not yet done any and were just receiving the information on the TSB. I insisted and they now have the SW reload, but not the grease for the suspect connector. I hope to pick it up on Friday morning with a repainted bumper and new SW/greased connector. I'll report back after that.

jfc1

I own a 2004 Prius and I like my car. However, I want to find out if others are having a problem I have noticed. I am trying to maximize my mileage but can never seem to get above 40.8 mpg; perhaps it is the stop and go traffic of Los Angeles. I try letting the Prius coast to stops, avoid jack rabbit starts, etc. but most times the mpg stays in the high 30's. Often when I first start driving, the car engine roars for the first several miles, as if the Prius is in a cold climate and is taking time to warm up. I give the car a little acceleration and then I take my foot completely off the accelerator until it slows down to the point that I must apply some acceleration. Although I am not going over 20 to 25 mph, the info screen shows 8.7, 14.3, 6.8 mpg, etc. and I thought that under 25 mph or so, only the hybrid battery is supposed to be working, so shouldn't my mileage be like 99.9 mpg?