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When I last read up on it, more than 80% of the Buick/Pontiac/GMC dealers were merged. There apparently are still some stand alones or slightly different configurations.
We had one Pontiac-GMC dealer that was paired up with Dodge! I thought that was a bit odd. I remember a lot of standalone Buick dealers when I was younger, but it seems like most of them were merged in with Pontiac-GMC back in the 90's. And that Pontiac-Dodge dealer I mentioned is now Dodge-only. They added Pontiac-GMC to a nearby Cadillac-Hummer dealer though, and also picked up Buick, IIRC.
I think most of us are saying one brand should go away.
This lends credence to making Buick-Pontiac-GMC something like Toyota w/Scion... having them under one roof, selling vehicles that don't overlap with each other. That would make more sense (consolidating dealerships, no overlap in product - who needs a luxo Pontiac cruiser when you have Buick, or who needs a Buick SUV when you have GMC) than whacking a division, IMHO. Isn't this the way dealerships are set up in Canada?
--Robert
In the 1970s and 1980s, local dealership groups throughout the US were able to get state legislatures to make laws which strictly regulate manufacturers' ability to negotiate and change contract terms.
The result is that US manufacturers - which have most of the older dealerships - are forced to jump through hoops whenever they try to reorganize their dealership networks. US dealers know the law protects them, so they demand all sorts of incentives before making any accommodations to change.
I suspect most of these state laws would be found unconstitutional if challenged. GM, Ford and Daimler would be hard pressed to do so, owing to bad PR and hurting good will with your successful dealers.
In Canada, where the Provinces do not have anywhere near the autonomy of a State in the US, the federal law allows manufacturers the freedom to work changes that make sense to the brand and customers as a whole. Not surprisingly, the Big 3 are in a better competitve position in Canada than in the US.
I don't have sales figures handy, but isn't GMC #2 in total sales after Chevy? Does Chevy sell the same big-truck (TopKick) line that GMC does?
Why would they dump them? I think there is value in having choice - some people won't buy Chevy but will buy GMC. My wife and I did not like the Trailblazer at all (sister's is a plastic nightmare inside), but the Envoy is a much nicer truck to us, inside and out (bought one). Of course I don't feel Buick, Isuzu, or Saab need one :-)
I think if they do whack Pontiac (the likely candidate - Buick is getting an infusion of new product, whereas Pontiac is getting the Solstice, a rebadged Equinox, and just had its next-gen GTO and G8 killed), Buick-GMC would become the standard pairing.
--Robert
Same with Ford.
I think what Hammen2 meant was for the dealers to merge. I know in Pittsburh PA there is a dealer (Cochran) that sells all GM brands except Chevrolet in one location- they call it the GM mega store.... I'm sure GM would like to see more dealers like that, but they can't really totally control the dealers.. if there is a "holdout" dealer that doesn't want to merge, there isn't much they can do.
IIRC, the Buick/Pontiac/GMC stores stay away from those products and concentrate on pickups and SUV's.
For instance, I wouldn't be caught dead in a new Silverado. I just can't stand that "angry appliance" front-end that they yanked off the Avalanche. I much prefer the look of the GMC Sierra, which is toned down and softer on the eye.
Chevy does sell a version of the medium duty Top-Kick. I think Chevy's version is called the Kodiak? I don't think they've made real heavy duty trucks since the 80's though, back when they offered the Chevy Bison/GMC Bruin and Chevy Brigadeer/GMC General. Jerry Reed drove a General in "Smokey and the Bandit: Part 2"
BUT, practically speaking, what are you going to do with all the current Pontiac/GMC dealers? Do they now sell only GMC? What if there is already a Buick dealer down the street? You can't really force the 2 dealers to merge. It's a sticky situation.
You are correct. GM cannot force dealers to merge.
It has been using GMAC financing and other incentives to encourage merging. But if a dealer holds out, there is little GM can otherwise do to force the issue.
GMC: 69,000+
Pontiac: 55,800+
Buick: 38,400+
Cadillac: 30,500 (almost)
Saturn: 28,000
Saab: ~4,000 (US)
Hummer: 3730
GMC's are built on the same lines as the Chevys, so one can easily make a Chevy instead. The dealerships are another story....
I know most of us here would prefer a G6 to a Grand Am, but the market seems to say otherwise... Enthusiasts always thought Grand Ams were tacky, but they seemed to sell pretty well... The G6 isn't exactly setting the marketplace on fire!
Maybe they just made a mistake in dropping the Grand Am name?
First the get raked over the coals for offering cladding/slats/moulding. Then Lutz comes on board and says that Pontiacs will get a more "Euro" clean design (like Olds was getting). So we get the Solstice, G6, and GTO - which, especially the GTO, get knocked for "bland" styling.
I personally wish there was more "coke-bottle" styling to Pontiacs - the Woodward/Ram Air 6 GTO is a great example of that. The G6 looks like a Honda front end, not Pontiac, and there's something... odd about the styling, as Andre said.
I liked the Solstice when I first saw it, but, having seen it and the Sky, I prefer the looks of that roadster (doesn't matter, I'm not buying either :-)
Same thing could be happening here with Pontiac... The person who liked the cladding, etc doesn't like the G6... The person who likes the 'clean' look of the G6 doesn't like it enougth to buy it instead of an Accord (or whatever)
Going forward, I don't see any difference between where Pontiac wants to be - "sporty, Euro" and where Saturn wants to be - "sporty, Euro"...To me, the new Aura looks like a G6 with a different grille.
Maybe Pontiac should have gone more toward "American Muscle" like Dodge is trying to do?
Unfortunately, Mr. Lutz did not have access to an engine that uses nearly as much oil as it does gas.
But he does have the 4 cyl. 2.4 that gets 177 horses and 166 pounds torque to propel the Solstice. And the 2.4 is designed to go more than 10k miles between oil changes.
To each their own, I suppose.
Ya see, merc1, that's were I differ with you - I don't think GM can afford NOT to shudder another division - they have way too many divisions and they can't build anything with clean execution and a clear mission. They are getting their clocks cleaned by Toyota, Mercedes, BMW, even Ford can lick them in certain segments like they have done in the pony car segment with the Mustang because they can't turn the ship - it's too big. Now Lutz is there, who was originally a Ford guy, then a Chrysler guy, and he may know how to fix what ails GM, but the ship won't turn fast enough, if at all. He has stricken a chrome strip here and a body clad there, but is there a true Lutzmobile yet on the ground? I don't know that there is really, if there is, it's not a resounding hit yet. And they can't easily kill divisions because of the UAW and the dealer agreements either. But Saturn is now just a bloated mirror image of Chevrolet, it's no different other than the song. Hummer is a Tahoe on Hemmoroids now. It's a sad parody.......
If GM is to be saved IMO, it's going to take more than Lutz, and it's not his fault - it needs to get down to fighting weight and get focused on a few models, not a few LINES of models.
We went from "bolt-on Jr. high daydream" styling to "faux passe Japonoise". Americans wishing for Pontiac to be sophisticated and American at the same time scoffed at both.
I think that's a telling remark about Chrysler, frankly. It's not my favorite styling idiom, but it is honest, if that makes any sense. I don't think Pontiac should look like that, but there is a reason why some of us revere the look from '64 through '70, and some application of said same might be a better direction.
I contend that the G6 looks every bit a 2001 Honda Accord wannabe, and further that the GTO looks like an older Integra on steroids.
Good brand identity is pretty hard to establish these days.
It would not surprise me in the least to find that GM was indeed laying the ground work to pare off another division. How many times have we done this exercise? I think they'd be much better off with a lux division called Cadillac including Buick, a mainstream called Chevy, a youth badge called Saturn, and a truck badge called GMC.
I agree about shuttering one or combining two groups. It does affect how they develop a model when it's going to be changed slightly for other divisions to offer the clone. The mistake probably was when Olds was closed rather than "merging" it into another division and then ending up with a new group. I still believe the models they had showed potential.
Has anyone actually checked the 500? I parked next to one at a restaurant and it stood up oddly high. Is that because it was the AWD version or do all have that Pacifica/Accord too-tall-for-their-roots look.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The Intrigue was pricey compared to a Honda Accord or Toyota Camry, and it suffered from teething problems that GM never fixed. It was, however, far more attractive than either the Accord or Camry in the styling department.
The big problem with the "de-cladded" Pontiacs is that they just aren't very attractive. The G6 has an awkward look, while the GTO does not have the presence one expects of a car costing well over $30,000. The Grand Prix already looks tired.
The new product and then shut down thing is true. All that money on a brand new Aurora only to shut Olds down. The Aurora was finally a decent car too, but oh well. I they should have given the Aurora to another division - Buick or Saturn, but thats just me.
Yes - Saturn does hold promise with all the European stuff they could bring over under that brand. The original promise of all Saturns being plastic and build in Tennesse are shot anyway so.....
M
http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0503/25/A01-128984.htm
I was wondering what the dealers thought about his statement.
M
Is Bob Lutz crazy? Why phase out Pontiac after they relase three versions of the G6, as well as a new minivan, the Montana SV6? Why phase out Buick after releasing the Lacrosse and the Terraza, with the Lucerne soon to arrive?
Why don't they just kill Saturn? Saturn is by far the most useless GM brand. Finally this year they release a new van, the Relay. Saturn has had little or no product development over the past 5 years. Sure, there was the cheap little Ion that no one liked, and the ugly L Series, but there were no products that the public actually liked, except maybe the VUE Red Line.
The new Saturn Relay, Aura and Sky look nice for sure, but even three new models won't be enough to save this nearly dead company.
Why phase out Pontiac? That brand actually shows promise. It builds sporty, inexpensive cars that offer pretty good value against the likes of Toyota and Honda. If Pontiac were to create higher quality interiors and if they incorporated more technology in their cars, then they would stand a fighting chance against the other midsize sport sedans.
Buick is somewhat dead, but at least they have a better lineup than Saturn. Buick has the oldest average buyer in the car industry, 64, yet if they offer more technology with higher quality interiors and stronger engines on all their cars then they can compete with Lexus, Acura, Infiniti. Hopefully Buick will apply this to the new Lucerne. Buick should unveil a coupe soon, it lost this market when it killed the Riviera.
So, Bob Lutz, do us all a favor and kill Saturn, there is no life in that company. Long live Buick and Pontiac!
In contrast, while the G6 is cleaner and put together better, it still suffers from a cheap interior, and the proportioning on it actually seems a bit odd to me. The rear wheels just seem too far back in relation to the C-pillar and the rump of the car, and the way the beltline kicks up just seems odd and forced, and not natural the way GM used to be able to do it in the 60's.
I see a similar problem with the Grand Prix. The new one certainly seems better built than the '97-03. Body panels seem to fit together much better, and the interior is improved. And it's nice that they finally made the 3.8 standard instead of the 3.1. And again, it's a cleaner car than the cladded, ribbed and winged '97-03, but I just don't like the overall shape. In contrast, I always thought the '97-03 Grand Prix was a good looking car underneath, but just needed a nicer interior and some of that cladding yanked off.
I think one reason the G6 isn't selling too well is because it's priced higher than the Grand Am was. Don't they come standard with the 3.5? The Grand Am was basically a mass-market compact car with sporty pretensions, but the G6 just seems more of a niche vehicle. Sportier and more capable than the Grand Am was, but also higher priced and less mass-market. Also, I wonder if being available only as a 4-door might have hurt things? I don't know what percentage of Grand Ams were coupes, but I'd guess somewhere on the order of 20-25%. The coupes did seem to be relatively common.
As for the Grand Prix, it really doesn't cut it as a mass-market family car, because its back seat is just too cramped. It's like they tried to combine a coupe and sedan and roll them all into one for the '04 model. It's no worse inside than a '97-03 Grand Prix coupe, and probably no more cramped than the sedan was either, but compared to mainstream cars like the Impala, Taurus, Accord, Camry, Altima, etc, it makes horrible use of interior space. Probably the closest domestic equivalent to the Grand Prix was the Dodge Intrepid, a car that was a more successful blend of sport sedan and mass-market family sedan, resulting in a car that could seat 5 in comfort with 18 cubic feet of trunk space, while still delivering excellent handling. On the foreign front, the Nissan Altima is a good blend of sport sedan and family car as well.
Now I'm judging this from my perspective, in that I've gotten 5 people in my Intrepid with no trouble at all, and I can fit comfortably in the back of an Altima, but can't even fit in the back of a Grand Prix. So if you're shorter, YMMV. :-)
By making a car that tries to be sporty, but doesn't have any serious interior room, that puts the Grand Prix pretty much in the same league with cars like the Mazda6 and BMW models. And I have a feeling that most people, when they compare a Mazda6 or BMW to a Grand Prix, aren't going to be driving out of the dealership with a red arrowhead on their hood!
The Grand Prix is aiming more at the sporty sedan market. Front wheel drive is not helping. Still, the Grand Prix is a different style than the Impala or the LaCrosse. All three are the same platform. So there is a choice.
With what the 2004- Accord looks like, maybe that's not a bad thing. Sales of the Accord and Civic have lately been slipping. I believe sales of the Civic are something like 21% off from last year.
I went to Buick.com to see pictures of the Lucerne. Hmmmm! Maybe I'll be looking at a Buick next time since Cadillac prices have gotten out of hand. It even has the Northstar V-8. I was very pleased with the treatment my girlfriend got at the Buick dealer and see no reason why we shouldn't give them more business in the future.
ps. my 1.3 l rotary cranks out 238 hps!!
The GM automobile 4 family is now the ecotec engines. The Solstice will have the first 2.4 litre version. The Ecotecs have a great reliability history.
You have to crank above 7k rpms to get the hp on the rotary. And you have to crank over 5k rpms to get just 164 lbs torque.
There are many good reasons to buy an RX8. Reliability and engineering over a Solstice are not among them.
Recall, we are talking Bob Lutz here and his Pontiacs. Not Pontiacs before Bob Lutz came aboard.
So, I guess just like everything else, some of them are good, some are bad, and depending on how many fall on what side of "average", that gets you your overall reliability.
I haven't heard anything bad about the Ecotech, yet. About the worst I've heard is that when the Ion first came out, it was slow as molasses, but I think that was the transmission more than the engine. When they started putting it in the Cavalier, it made for a quick little car.
In your second paragraph, are you talking about cars or your ex-wife?
pardon my ignorance on the "laying to rest" of the quad 4 (they were still using it in the grand am in 2001), but i have no reason to keep up with what gm is doing.
the thread discussion was "Is Lutz making the grade?" I don't think he's even shown up for class yet!!!!
Shouldn't that be "Hummeroids"?
"Why phase out Pontiac after they relase three versions of the G6, as well as a new minivan, the Montana SV6?" - Lexusrocks
Because they're out the gate like... like... like... like my train of thought. I think you need to read back a day or two. Pontiacs newest entries are not selling well. Combine that with how long it takes to shudder a brand and you can see why pontiac and Buick are possibilities.
Given the gravamen of this thread, the Solstice, possibly the STS - although all Lutz did there was slightly modify the pre-Lutz Art+Science look - and the forthcoming Lucerne are really all you can talk about.
I understand Lutz pushed Pontiac to remove some modest plastic cladding from the G6. Given the Epsilon platform predates him, there were certainly limits to what he could do with the overall dimensions of the car.
Finally, you are right, you have no reason to keep up with what GM is doing. But this is a thread where we are discussing absolutely that. Your posts will be somewhat inane, and thus open to criticism, where you come in talking about things that happened before Bob Lutz became a GM employee in mid-2001.
Vehicle design from platform up takes around 3 years. Financially mandated design cycles mean not every vehicle was waiting for the new Lutz crew when they came aboard. The Solstice will be the first ground up Lutz design. Seems to me it has a lot of promise.
I do not hold that the ecotec 4 is better than all the competition. The 2.2 litre has a very good reliability record. It also has proven to be a very easy and affordable tuner.
GM will get a very respectable 177 ponies out of the 2.4 and it will deliver its full torque at a very low 2.o rpms. If the engine proves as reliable and inexpensive to maintain as the 2.2 - and there is no reason to think it will not - Lutz's first baby will be affordable, fun, and good looking to boot.
To me that says a lot about what he can bring to GM.
The kind of commitment necessary to launch a car like the Solstice and the apparent move to finally channel Opel design through Saturn will pay dividends to GM long after Lutz has packed his bags and headed off to wherever he plans on retiring too.
Lutz had a lot to say about the superficial touches, but the basic design was already in place before he took on the project.
If you look at the shape, you can see the similarities to the Grand Prix. That means finance would not let the LaCrosse team do additional wind tunnel and safety engineering that would have allowed the car to be further distinguished from the Grand Prix.
The LaCrosse interior and front end have obvious Lutz hallmarks.
On the other hand, the Impala has a body shape with siginificant differences from the Grand Prix and the LaCrosse. As the Impala sells well over 200k per year, it appears finance was not so tight with the update budget.
I don't think GM could update the Impala to fall more in line with the Grand Prix/LaCrosse, because the result would be too small inside, and that would probably cost them sales in the family car market.
Badger, I meant that second paragraph to be about cars, but I guess it could apply to spouses, too! ;-)
To me, at least, the new Aura looks like a G6 with a different grille.
The Sky IS a Solstice with a different grille.
There just seems to be a lot of overlap there between the two brands going forward - they both want to have that "sporty, Euro, slightly upscale" type image...
Could be that I'm biased having once bought (and enjoyed greatly) a Saturn, and at the time, there was no other GM car you could have bribed me into.
I have zero idea left of what to make Pontiac into. It can't be the sport option as they all now claim to be sporty in some way; even Buick. It's not the everyman's car as that belongs to Chevy. Sophisticated? I think Saturn would be a better candidate downstream.
Maybe they could morph it into the musclecar division...
The Sky and Solstice are the same platform and the same basic vehicle. However, the Solstice is cheaper and will not offer the same options. The Sky will offer an automatic for one thing. I do have some doubts that the market for both is really there. As long as they both come off the same assembly line, the cost of building both should not be much more than building only one.
I think maybe they should have left Pontiac be "American style" sporty - with the wings and the slats, etc... As I said up above, 'enthusiasts' don't like it, but it seemed to sell.