Remember that the biggest weakness of Honda and Toyota is their dealer network. People regularly complain about the treatment they receive from Honda and Toyota dealers when buying a vehicle.
If Saturn offers vehicles that can compete with Honda and Toyota, but are sold through its "warm and fuzzy" dealer network, it has a real chance of making headway.
The new Aura looks very sharp. I have heard, however, that Mr. Lutz is touting it as a competitor to the Acura TL. I would hope not. Saturn doesn't have the reputation to play in that league. But something with that style, sold through Saturn dealers, and competitive in price with the Accord (four cylinder), would make waves in the market.
Doesn't have a lot to do with Mr. Lutz, does it....because he can't change a darn thing that is going on at GM. He probably can't even count all the models he makes, too many of them.......
I'll try to look at it that way - frankly, I never had an actual reaction to it sexually either way, or any other way - so I would consider it gender, and every other way, neutral. It evokes no emotional reaction, I think. Oprah's audience is not even happy with it, by the way, griping about the taxes they had to pay. (ingrates!!). My biggest complaint with GM is the woeful interiors still being schlepped on us. Pathetic seats with no padding, plain ugly cloth, black plastic abounds in a sea of ugly and cheap that doesn't come together any better than a 78 Camaro's cabin did. Nothing inside to get my juices flowing yet, even in a Corvette. Certainly nothing to get my back feeling good in most of the models, Escalade, and a few other models, excepted.
nvbanker, you obviously haven't sat in a new GTO yet. One of the best GM's ever done - well, not really, since Holden is who did it :-) I am biased since I'm an owner, but reviews have all praised both the design and the interior quality of the GTO. Most of the complaints are regarding the outside, not inside or under the hood :-)
Bad/cheap interiors seems to be a North America problem. I've seen pics of Opel interiors, as well as other Holdens, and they are very nice. This is one of the reasons I'm sad the Zeta platform is dead for North America - we won't get the chance of getting some of the awesome cars GM builds elsewhere in the world. Saturn's going to get some Opels, but we'll see if GMNA can resist cheapening the interiors again...
Pieces falling off -- but of course "it's a sample of one." Would they have said that for a GM car where something's falling off or feels thin and cheap!!!! Nahhhhh.. :surprise:
autorants: As a gear-head, I sure hope that Bob can continue to improve things at GM. I know first-hand that he can improve their products, but the jury is still out whether or not he can prevent mediocre products from ever reaching the market.
But the bigger question is whether Bob Lutz has the time to continue improving things at GM. From my perspective, things are still moving too slowly. The competition - both foreign and domestic - isn't sitting still, waiting for GM to get its act together.
This afternoon I browsed at some local dealers. Two things struck me regarding GM. The first is the Impala. Looking at the current model, the one thing that jumps out at me is the dual round taillights. I'm not crazy about the execution, but it is a distinctive feature, and it recalls the Chevys of the 1960s.
I've seen the revamped 2006 model at the Philadelphia Auto Show. What is missing? The current Impala's most distinctive styling feature - the dual taillights. That's a shame, as the market is crowded with family sedans, and GM has just taken away the Impala's one styling trademark that made people notice it. Not a good move on GM's part. GM should have built upon that feature while improving the rest of the car.
The second is the Buick lineup. I noticed that there is a large amount of price overlap between the LaCrosse and the LeSabre.
Most of the LeSabres on the lot were priced between $29-33,000, with one or two at $27,000, and two at $35,000. Most of the LaCrosses were priced between $29-32,000, with one or two priced at $24,000.
Buick is down to two car lines, and they sell for roughly the same price, and have roughly the same configuration. Granted, the LeSabre still has an available bench seat. Buick loyalists who want a bench seat will still have to buy a LeSabre. But it seems as though GM has two cars that compete with EACH OTHER more than the vehicles from other manufacturers. Even worse, they are parked on the same lot! Customers only have to walk over to the next row of vehicles to do a quick comparison.
Century, Regal -> LaCrosse LeSabre -> Lucerne Park Avenue ->Zeta-based car (Invicta? Roadmaster?). Not sure what the plan is here - this might still happen, but it would be a next-gen Holden Statesman imported as a Buick, perhaps...
is probably going to fill roughly the same role for Buick that the 2001 Aurora tried to fill for Oldsmobile. When the Aurora was redesigned, it ended up having to fill the role of both the 1995-1999 Aurora, but also used a V-6 model to fill the role of the 88 model.
One reason that there might be some confusion over the LaCrosse's place in the market is the LaCrosse concept car. It was a big 4-door hardtop that even had little quarter windows in the C-pillars that retracted. It also had kind of a clamshell rear, where the rear window could retract into the ceiling and the trunk retracted down into the floor, kind of like those old '71-76 GM full-sized wagons. If it had gone into production, even without the hardtop styling and the clamshell rear-end, it would have easily been a replacement for the Park Ave, instead of the Century/Regal as it turned out.
I don't know if that's a good idea or not... If I'm buying a $40K V8 Lucerne, I might not be thrilled that a "base" V6 Lucerne looks almost exactly the same and has the same nameplate yet costs $10K less. I think it is maybe trying to cover too wide of a gap with one nameplate.
Also, like Oldsmobile, I wonder if Buick isn't risking losing alot of their "traditional" buyers by dropping the old nameplates like Regal, LeSabre, Park Avenue
As I understand the plan: The V8 Lucerne stands in for the old Park Avenue for the 2006 model year. After that, the plan was to have a RWD Zeta model to replace the Park Avenue as the top of the line Buick sedan. Now the plans are somewhat up in the air, but, a RWD import from Holden could become a top of the line Buick sedan sometime in 2007. Either a 2008 import could begin sales around January 1, 2007; or a 2007 import could start sales at the beginning of the 2007 model year, October 2006. Otherwise, longer term, the 2008 model would start sales in October 2007, or it might slip to become a 2009 or even a 2010 model......
that's about how I feel with the Lucerne, too. IMO, that's part of what killed the Olds Aurora for me, as well. I really liked the '95-99 Aurora, because it was unique, special, and prestigious. It was V-8 only, and above not only the Olds 88, but even above the Olds 98 in status. Although, the 98 was dropped after 1996 IIRC. But suddenly the new '01 Aurora is replacing the 88 AND the old Aurora? That just didnt' cut it for me. Plus, while the 4.0 V-8 was decently quick in the Aurora, for the time, the 3.5 V-6 was actually a bit hard-pressed to move its bulk.
There's also something about names like "LaCrosse", "Lucerne", "Rendezvous", etc that just sound kinda effeminate, or wussy. Even though "LeSabre" had the Frenchy "Le" in it, it just had a more substantial ring to it. So did Regal, and Century. I always thought names like "Park Avenue" (and 5th Avenue, as well) were a bit pretentious, but "Electra" was a nice one, too.
This question has been answered since Wagoner is taking over for N American operations and Lutz is being moved to global operations. Looks like GM might be in crisis mode.
Just IMO, they would have been better off using a separate name for the V6 and V8 models....
They're sort of in a tough spot - they want to attract younger buyers but at the same time retain their 'traditional' buyers....it's a gamble, though because they could end up like Oldsmobile if they turn off their 'base' without attracting new buyers...
Sort of off topic but....as far as nameplates go, it's a little sad how the domestics will take a perfectly good model name and just ruin it to the point that it can't be used anymore....Citation, Celebrity, Corsica, Century, Cutlass, Taurus....you can bet that 20 years from now, Toyota will still be selling Camrys and Corollas, they won't need to rename the car to try to get a 'fresh start'.
I do think that the Lucerne's price tag will be a problem. With the Aurora, they were intending that the 88 replacement to be a different model than the Aurora, but Oldsmobile had been killed, so they had the choice of dropping the first Aurora and getting the 88 replacement. There seems to me to be a cost/pricing problem with the FWD Aurora or G-body platform. These cars seem to be priced ever higher.
They need to compete pricewise with the Chrysler 300. This may have been the big problem with the zeta platform.
seems like a bad omen - the "bean counter" taking over more responsibility and pushing the "car guy" out....I hope that isn't the case, but that's how it looks
Maybe that's why he was so "testy" with the press at the NY auto show? Maybe he knew this was coming....?
Well, if so, as was already mentioned in this thread, I think he gave his best shot, but he didn't have unlimited time and resources...the Titanic doesn't turn on a dime.
I bet it was because he suggested that GM may have to fold under-preforming brands at the NY show. That got him in deep trouble with GM, especially the dealers.
it almost seemed like GM thought they could put Lutz on board, PR the crap out of him, and not really change things. It's kinda like the "Under New Management" signs you see all the time.
No, they made promises to lure him there. He's not stupid. He was given some serious control by GM standards.
Somehow I get the feeling that he was being called on the carpet for early returns on his work, got seriously fed up and decided to paint the real picture for the press last week, and is now headed for "special projects", which in corporate-speak means "might as well pack dude".
Unfortunate. Meanwhile, the tail-spin continues, and with SUV sales beginning to soften like ice cream in Bermuda, GMAC better be making some hefty profit...
I dunno - "serious control" versus "serious control by GM standards" are two different things...
My guess is, he got tired of trying to turn the Titanic around...It's a bad sign for GM if they are kicking the "car guy" upstairs so the "bean counter" can have more day-to-day control...
lemko: yeah, that was Wolfgang. Basically, he said that unless they started implemeting some serious changes at home, a la Chrysler, the old Benz Boyz boat was going down. Didn't sit well with the old guard.
Dave: Absotively! I had to put in that little disclaimer. No choice!
Bobby Lutz and Gary Cowger should just take their marbles and go home. If those two can't see GM greasing the skids (with GM approved lubricant of course) then they really have on blinders. I give 'em both less than a year. Walk of into the sunset arm in arm and be rid of the unfixable mess they were expected to clean up with no authority to do so. GM deserves every bit of the misery they have created. I feel really sorry for the the worker ants at the bottom who will be the real sufferers when the smoke clears. Too bad !!
good point - for all the "I hate GM, I hope they die" types ...if GM does go belly up someday it doesn't hurt guys like Lutz or Cowger or Wagonner, they have their golden parachutes and their nest eggs, it hurts all the "worker bees" and especially the retirees.
that for every mediocre vehicle that GM rolls out, thousands of jobs will probably be lost at GM and its suppliers?
I really think that's how dire the situation is. Unfortunately, Wagoner, Lutz and Co don't seem to be doing much about developing best in class vehicles.
Well, let's be serious: GM ain't going down in those terms. Actual death of GM would be catastrophic to our economy I should think. Before an absolute failure of the company, the feds would intervene. A sale perhaps?
As far as rolling out mediocre vehicles goes, I would say they've definitely been improving, but the cost is huge. Logic will correct me if I'm wrong, but the Cadillac rebuild is still incomplete and has cost many, many millions to date (started in the 90's after all), yet that is precisely the kind of deferred maintenance cost that's keeping the other lines mired in mediocrity. They fundamentally owe billions for the reinvestment they never made in other lines. To get them all ship shape and truly competitive would require a Cadillac effort and cost for each marque. Won't happen soon.
That's not Bob's fault IMO.
He'll go back to the Cunningham project in about 18 months I think...
have a family member up north (Ohio) works for the spin-off from GM, Delphi. They are closing the plant he works at pretty soon. he is one of those "worker bees" with about 20 some years seniority. He was offered $100K to relocate to Kansas City GM Plant which would put him back into the GM nest. Now you know that Delphi is probably not pucking up that tab but GM. The UAW must have some brilliant contract negotiaters to be able to get GM / Delphi to sign off on a deal like that. by the way he refused the deal and will instead commute about a 100 miles a day to a plant in Mansfield. I think I would have taken the 100K, worked about a year in KC and then pulled the plug for good.
GM is improving, but the competition isn't sitting still. It takes GM too long to get new vehicles to market. By the time the new GM vehicle arrives, the target has moved.
GM is in trouble, but bankruptcy isn't inevitable. If things get even worse, GM management can hold a gun to the heads of dealers and the UAW and demand more cuts (factory closures, reductions in spending for health care, the elimination of a division or two).
At that point, GM management will be holding the cards, because both the UAW and the dealers have much to lose if GM declares bankruptcy.
It will weigh around 390 pounds more than the new 2006 Mazda MX-5, but it will cost around $2,000-$3,000 less than the MX-5. It will weigh and cost less than the Audi TT or BMW Z4.
from some insider friends I know about a Ford/GM merger going around the plants. Frankly, I'd hate to see that, but I almost think it's inevitable. I think it would be bad for Ford, but good for GM.
I can't imagine a merger between these two. All those brands under one already poor management structure. Ford will be ok by years end watch and see. A merger like that would end the entire U.S. auto industry when both of these companies fail together. I'd hate to see what GM would do to all of Ford's premium brands. GM has shown with Saab that they don't know how to manage a Euro brand worth a damn.
Comments
If Saturn offers vehicles that can compete with Honda and Toyota, but are sold through its "warm and fuzzy" dealer network, it has a real chance of making headway.
The new Aura looks very sharp. I have heard, however, that Mr. Lutz is touting it as a competitor to the Acura TL. I would hope not. Saturn doesn't have the reputation to play in that league. But something with that style, sold through Saturn dealers, and competitive in price with the Accord (four cylinder), would make waves in the market.
Bad/cheap interiors seems to be a North America problem. I've seen pics of Opel interiors, as well as other Holdens, and they are very nice. This is one of the reasons I'm sad the Zeta platform is dead for North America - we won't get the chance of getting some of the awesome cars GM builds elsewhere in the world. Saturn's going to get some Opels, but we'll see if GMNA can resist cheapening the interiors again...
Pieces falling off -- but of course "it's a sample of one." Would they have said that for a GM car where something's falling off or feels thin and cheap!!!! Nahhhhh.. :surprise:
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I will say that the interior door plastic on the car I saw at the auto show yesterday was very unimpressive.
But the bigger question is whether Bob Lutz has the time to continue improving things at GM. From my perspective, things are still moving too slowly. The competition - both foreign and domestic - isn't sitting still, waiting for GM to get its act together.
This afternoon I browsed at some local dealers. Two things struck me regarding GM. The first is the Impala. Looking at the current model, the one thing that jumps out at me is the dual round taillights. I'm not crazy about the execution, but it is a distinctive feature, and it recalls the Chevys of the 1960s.
I've seen the revamped 2006 model at the Philadelphia Auto Show. What is missing? The current Impala's most distinctive styling feature - the dual taillights. That's a shame, as the market is crowded with family sedans, and GM has just taken away the Impala's one styling trademark that made people notice it. Not a good move on GM's part. GM should have built upon that feature while improving the rest of the car.
The second is the Buick lineup. I noticed that there is a large amount of price overlap between the LaCrosse and the LeSabre.
Most of the LeSabres on the lot were priced between $29-33,000, with one or two at $27,000, and two at $35,000. Most of the LaCrosses were priced between $29-32,000, with one or two priced at $24,000.
Buick is down to two car lines, and they sell for roughly the same price, and have roughly the same configuration. Granted, the LeSabre still has an available bench seat. Buick loyalists who want a bench seat will still have to buy a LeSabre. But it seems as though GM has two cars that compete with EACH OTHER more than the vehicles from other manufacturers. Even worse, they are parked on the same lot! Customers only have to walk over to the next row of vehicles to do a quick comparison.
Century, Regal -> LaCrosse
LeSabre -> Lucerne
Park Avenue ->Zeta-based car (Invicta? Roadmaster?). Not sure what the plan is here - this might still happen, but it would be a next-gen Holden Statesman imported as a Buick, perhaps...
The Lucerne seems to replace both the LeSabre and the Park Ave, IMO ... the V8 Lucerne is nicer and pricier than the Park Ave...
Also, as always, a really 'loaded" LaCrosse is probably similar or maybe even more expensive than a "base" Lucerne.
The RWD 'flagship' was planned for 2007 MY but with the delay/cancellation of the Zeta platform, who knows?
One reason that there might be some confusion over the LaCrosse's place in the market is the LaCrosse concept car. It was a big 4-door hardtop that even had little quarter windows in the C-pillars that retracted. It also had kind of a clamshell rear, where the rear window could retract into the ceiling and the trunk retracted down into the floor, kind of like those old '71-76 GM full-sized wagons. If it had gone into production, even without the hardtop styling and the clamshell rear-end, it would have easily been a replacement for the Park Ave, instead of the Century/Regal as it turned out.
Also, like Oldsmobile, I wonder if Buick isn't risking losing alot of their "traditional" buyers by dropping the old nameplates like Regal, LeSabre, Park Avenue
There's also something about names like "LaCrosse", "Lucerne", "Rendezvous", etc that just sound kinda effeminate, or wussy. Even though "LeSabre" had the Frenchy "Le" in it, it just had a more substantial ring to it. So did Regal, and Century. I always thought names like "Park Avenue" (and 5th Avenue, as well) were a bit pretentious, but "Electra" was a nice one, too.
LaCrosse CX = Special
LaCrosse CXL/CXS = Century
LeSabre/Lucerne = Super
Unknown Zeta Car = Roadmaster
Deluxe Zeta Car = Limited
They're sort of in a tough spot - they want to attract younger buyers but at the same time retain their 'traditional' buyers....it's a gamble, though because they could end up like Oldsmobile if they turn off their 'base' without attracting new buyers...
Sort of off topic but....as far as nameplates go, it's a little sad how the domestics will take a perfectly good model name and just ruin it to the point that it can't be used anymore....Citation, Celebrity, Corsica, Century, Cutlass, Taurus....you can bet that 20 years from now, Toyota will still be selling Camrys and Corollas, they won't need to rename the car to try to get a 'fresh start'.
They need to compete pricewise with the Chrysler 300. This may have been the big problem with the zeta platform.
Bob
Well, if so, as was already mentioned in this thread, I think he gave his best shot, but he didn't have unlimited time and resources...the Titanic doesn't turn on a dime.
Bob
Bob
Somehow I get the feeling that he was being called on the carpet for early returns on his work, got seriously fed up and decided to paint the real picture for the press last week, and is now headed for "special projects", which in corporate-speak means "might as well pack dude".
Unfortunate. Meanwhile, the tail-spin continues, and with SUV sales beginning to soften like ice cream in Bermuda, GMAC better be making some hefty profit...
My guess is, he got tired of trying to turn the Titanic around...It's a bad sign for GM if they are kicking the "car guy" upstairs so the "bean counter" can have more day-to-day control...
Dave: Absotively! I had to put in that little disclaimer. No choice!
believer
I really think that's how dire the situation is. Unfortunately, Wagoner, Lutz and Co don't seem to be doing much about developing best in class vehicles.
As far as rolling out mediocre vehicles goes, I would say they've definitely been improving, but the cost is huge. Logic will correct me if I'm wrong, but the Cadillac rebuild is still incomplete and has cost many, many millions to date (started in the 90's after all), yet that is precisely the kind of deferred maintenance cost that's keeping the other lines mired in mediocrity. They fundamentally owe billions for the reinvestment they never made in other lines. To get them all ship shape and truly competitive would require a Cadillac effort and cost for each marque. Won't happen soon.
That's not Bob's fault IMO.
He'll go back to the Cunningham project in about 18 months I think...
From Chrysler - not GM.
You sponge!
Actually, after paying for two colleges (in a few years), I'll need some supplemental to draw on too!
Believer
GM is in trouble, but bankruptcy isn't inevitable. If things get even worse, GM management can hold a gun to the heads of dealers and the UAW and demand more cuts (factory closures, reductions in spending for health care, the elimination of a division or two).
At that point, GM management will be holding the cards, because both the UAW and the dealers have much to lose if GM declares bankruptcy.
It came out at the 2002 Detroit auto show as this...
Pontiac Solstice Roadster Concept
and was shown in production form last year at the Detroit auto show
2006 Pontiac Solstice
Pontiac.com
It will weigh around 390 pounds more than the new 2006 Mazda MX-5, but it will cost around $2,000-$3,000 less than the MX-5. It will weigh and cost less than the Audi TT or BMW Z4.
M