Bob Lutz - Is he making the grade?

nvbanker

hence my "bad for Ford" comment. But it would give GM some great brands they could give their Minivans to. Imagine a Jaguar Minivan! Volvo Minivan! Aston Martin Minivan! Wow! And, they could kill Mercury finally, since they already did that with Oldsmobile, albeit it took them 6 years and billions of dollars to do it, they have a plan somewhere on how to do it already, they wouldn't have to write a new business case on how to. They could take that enormously successful new Mustang and give it to Pontiac for a Firebird twin, see how it looks with a split grille and a chicken on the hood...... Oh, I forgot the Land Rover Minivan possibilities too! Cool!

merc1

Could you imagine what GM would do to Aston-Martin and Land Rover. Chevys and Pontiacs for everyone. I can see it now. All Land Rovers would be Chevy based. All Astons would be Cadillac based with the next DB9 getting a version of the next Corvette platform. I could just die thinking about it!!!

M

nvbanker

And the Land Rover would be a Trailblazer, the Range, a Tahoe, and they could bring out 2 more models- a Range Rover EXT Suburban based aircraft carrier, and one more with a convertible truck bed like the Escalanche.

xkss

It isn't going to happen. So stop it, please.

The 2006 Saab 9-3 Sportcombi looks nice. It will be available with a new 2.8-liter 6-cylinder turbocharged engine with 250 hp and 258 lb-ft of torque.

2006 Saab 9-3 Sportcombi

logic1

Opel seems to have done well enough over the past 50 or so years.

davem2001

If things get even worse, GM management can hold a gun to the heads of dealers and the UAW and demand more cuts (factory closures, reductions in spending for health care, the elimination of a division or two).

I wouldn't really count on it... the distrust between management and UAW is so deep...it might take an actual bankruptcy before any meaningful changes are made....

The USAirways bankruptcy saga was in the news in my area, because we are (were?) a major hub, so a lot of jobs were at stake. Even after USAirways declared chapter 11, it wasn't until the threat of the company totally shutting down that the unions agreed to concessions, and even then it was a close vote.

Anyway, hopefully I'll be wrong and cooler heads will prevail, but I really don't see the UAW backing down unless GM is really at the brink of going under.

davem2001

Sounds ridiculous to me... Where are the cost savings? I don't see the logic in it.

The Daimler Chrysler merger made sense, because Chrysler was strong in trucks/minivans and Daimler was strong in cars...they complemented each other, it was a good fit.

I don't see where a Ford/GM merger makes any sense.

lemko

...a GM-Toyota merger? Heck, Toyota already makes the Buick Avalon. GM/Ford? Well, a Trailblazer based Land Rover would at least RUN.

beliver

xkss: Got this little brochure with my GM card bill yesterday about the Solstice. They have priced it @ $19995 for a base car. Base will have 177HP ecotech engine 5 speed Aisin tranny (japanese ?), 18" alum wheels, fourwheel discs, 4 wheel independent "sla" suspension, Bilstein monotube shocks and hidden top stowage with clamshell opening. For more info go to www.pontiac.com/solstice.

No firm date to hit the showrooms but I think it'll be this fall as a 2006 model. I hope GM does not can this project due to their monumental debt. Or do something equally dumb like dumping Pontiac ala Olds. The Saturn version will cost more and be a very different styling exercise as well.

Lusting for one , Believer

logic1

You'll be able to get a Solstice a lot earlier than the Fall. Dealers are cleared to take orders starting 15 April 05.

GM has some type of a first 1000 Solstices promotion going on, so the first few weeks will have dealership mayhem similar to what happened when the PT Cruiser launched where people were bidding thousands over MSRP for a little station wagon (newsflash: modern mass produced cars are not collectibles!)

By June or so, GM will have ramped up production and the dealers will be forced to come to Earth. You should see prices right around MSRP from there on.

davem2001

Upon further review....yeah it would produce cost savings, not immediately, but 5, 10 years down the road it would produce big cost savings...You could have a lot of shared platforms, engines, etc... You wouldn't necessarily have to kill off a bunch of brands (well Ok, maybe Mercury and Pontiac/GMC)

You could have a "United Motors" in which Chevrolet and Ford share platforms, much like Ford does with Mazda already. The new Malibu would be another Mazda 6 variant....the new Impala could be a 500 variant....etc....

It would take several years for it to work, but there would eventually be potentially huge savings.

badgerfan

It isn't going to happen for a huge variety of reasons. Ford wants nothing to do with GM. Ford under Bill Ford is getting its act together quite nicely, I believe. GM is so large and bureaucratic I doubt if anyone can cure their ills, certainly not in anything less than a 10 year outlook.

Both companies are large enough as it is(maybe too large) and there is little if any potential for significant cost savings by more platform sharing. Once you get to a certain size, the economies of scale are already there, and more platform sharing only results in not enough differentiation in the marketplace between brands.

davem2001

Yeah...I don't expect it to actually happen...At first glance, I thought it was a crazy idea,(post 362) but the more I thought about it, I do think they could save a ton of money on engines, transmissions, suspensions, etc.. and just keep the sheet metal different...like Ford and Mazda already do. But, I agree, it's not likely to happen.
What I do think you'll see more of is these joint ventures, like the Ford/GM 6-speed auto that is coming soon or the GM/DCX joint venture on the hybrids...That's a good way to save some money without the more drastic move of an actual merger.

bumpy

I want one too; there's a ghost view floating around showing wishbones front and rear. But now that Lutz has been kicked out of office I don't trust GM not to screw it up somehow. I'll wait a few years and buy one off-lease and let someone else pay for the privilege of dealing with the inevitable recalls and warranty repairs. There should be good aftermarket support for it by then, and I can add the hardtop, twin-screw supercharger kit, and mid-4 rear end it should have had.

davem2001

what's a mid-4 rear end?

robr2

...would never happen. A merger of that magnitude would never get approval from government here or in the EU without some major spin offs.

davem2001

why not - did the government stop the Diamler-Chrysler merger? Did the government stop BP and Exxon from merging...? We've seen some huge consolidations in aerospace, too - Lockheed and Boeing...

I agree it probably won't happen but it wouldn't be because the government intervened to stop it.

bumpy

The reduction ratio of the ring and pinion gear set in the rear end. Subaru put a 4.44 in some WRX's and NISMO used to make a 4.6 for the 240SX. GM's putting something like a 3.9 in the Solstice.

davem2001

Ok - you meant gear ratios, I understand now. I thought maybe you meant it should have an old fashioned live axle for some reason.

If it's got a 6 speed manual, it could have a very high (numerical) first gear, so the overall ratio is the same as having a 5 speed with a higher (numerical) rear end.

robr2

why not - did the government stop the Diamler-Chrysler merger? Did the government stop BP and Exxon from merging...? We've seen some huge consolidations in aerospace, too - Lockheed and Boeing...

It would concentrate too much market share in the hands of one owner - close to 50% in the US and a large amount in Europe. The DC merger went through only because it didn't give that much market share to one company - Chrysler had zero presence in Europe and MB a small share of the US market. GM and Ford overlap in other sectors as well - ie financial services.

The EU didn't allow GE and Honeywell to merge because it would have put too much market share in the hands of one company. The US stopped Microsoft and Intuit a few years ago. Lockheed and Boeing was allowed but they had to spin off huge assets IIRC including many defense businesses. In basic airliner business, it's such a large and competitive marketplace that predatory pricing cannot happen. Also, it was Exxon and Mobil - not BP and Exxon. There have been a number of mergers in the oil industry but no single producer controls a significant portion of the market that could lead to predatory pricing.

lhess

that the solstice will be a 5-speed. i don't think there's an auto tranny option either. And, my pontiac dealer says they will have them mid-summer at the latest. They look good, but if they are true pontiac, they'll have a ton of nerve-bending issues - sqeaks, rattles, warped rotors, brake pads every 8K miles, leaky top (had a sunfire convertible that I nearly drowned in), cheap interior, and a service department who can't fix any of it!!

logic1

The Kappa frame design has potential to be one of the more rigid in this market segment. Tests of mules appear to underscore my assessment.

The interior sure did not look cheap in the autoshow demo this January. I imagine the interior will be at least as nice as my Miata was. Larger too.

andre1969

was probably designed with being a roadster in mind, right from the get-go. The Cavalier/Sunbird/Sunfire never were. They were just 2-door coupes that were farmed out to an indpeendent contractor that chopped them. That almost always makes for a shakier, more rattle and leak prone car than a car that was designed as a convertible right from the start.

This is actually one reason that Chrysler had some success with the LeBaron and Sebring convertibles. These things were built, in-house, by Chrysler, instead of being coupes with chopped tops (disclaimer...the first-year LeBaron was farmed out, but Chrysler built them in-house after that. The farmed-out ones didn't have rear-quarter windows; the Chrysler built ones did). Now say what you want about the cars themselves, but as far as convertibles go, and the compromises that you have to make, they were pretty good.

The Solstice, however, is supposed to be an upmarket car, and GM has actually been putting some effort into improving some of its products as of late, so I'd expect a Solstice to be light years ahead of anything built on the J-body! The Solstice is just a 2-seater, correct? Well, that should inherently make it more rigid than a 4-seater, because the lack of a roof to help support the whole structure isn't as critical.

hammen2

GM has some type of a first 1000 Solstices promotion going on, so the first few weeks will have dealership mayhem similar to what happened when the PT Cruiser launched where people were bidding thousands over MSRP for a little station wagon (newsflash: modern mass produced cars are not collectibles!)

Actually I believe that GM is telling their dealers NO bidding wars, NO markup over MSRP on the First 1000 Solstices. Maybe they finally learned from the 2004 GTO fiasco (from which the car has never recovered)...

davem2001

I still don't think there would be a huge uproar raised - there's just too much competition in the US market to say that a Ford/GM merger would be a monopoly...

davem2001

I actually like the looks of the Sky a little better, but I agree, it will be a nice car... good luck actually finding one for $19,995 though... I think a more typical Solstice, with A/C, some options, will be in the low 20s...still a good price.

logic1

I hope the dealers handle the Solstice launch right. If they do, they can really boost their PR quotient.

Dealers being dealers, I will believe they will handle it right when I see it.

If Pontiac dealers handle it right, I'll consider a Solstice. If they handle it wrong, I'll consider a Sky. Still not sure if I want a car at all.

davem2001

Personally, I'm not a convertible fan - I'd be more interested in the Solstice if they would build the closed roof version they showed as a concept back in 2002, 2003 (whenever they first showed the Solstice in Detroit)... It sort of looked like an old original Datsun 240Z. I'm not a ragtop fan.

Logic - yeah that will be interesting...if the Sky turns out to be a "Hot" car when it comes out, the Saturn dealers won't be able to play games above MSRP- being Saturn. I guess all they could do is tack on a bunch of dealer installed options

logic1

According to the MSRP spec sheet, a fairly well equipped Solstice will go for around $23k. I think fully loaded is just over $24k. Still a pretty good deal.

If you want a hard core Roadster, you can get the limited slip for only $195.00 over the base $19,995.00. You would not have air conditioning - better pass on the dark interior - and you would have to use your muscle power to roll up your windows.

Depending on sales tax and licensing costs, you could walk away with a classic Roadster for around 23k total. Not bad.

logic1

The Saturn factor may force the Pontiac dealers to handle things on the straight and narrow.

Still, I can just imagine some Pontiac dealer somewhere trying to convince a would be buyer that the Solstice is worth the premium because the Lutz design is more collectible and no one would ever want to collect a Sky or some such nonsense.

Saturn dealers will try to push the packages and the aftermarket add ons and service agreements. They will persist as long as you let them. In my past experience with Saturn, be polite, but firm, and they will eventually do things your way.

davem2001

Well, I think it's safe to say you're going to see a lot more $22K, $23K ones on dealer lots than the $19,995 "stripper" models...like you said, still a good deal

andre1969

is that when you guys are throwing around these $19.9K, $22K, 23K, etc prices, my first thought is "is that all?!" That's a stark contrast to the typical MSRP of a GM vehicle, where my attitude is more like "what are they smoking?!"

davem2001

Yep, finally, a realistic price - not one where you think "well, after the $3000 rebate it's maybe not a bad deal"

nvbanker

"Opel seems to have done well enough over the past 50 or so years."

Yeah, before GM bought 'em.......and gave them a Trailblazer.....

grbeck

...Astra, Meriva and Vectra are quite sharp.The new Astra is far more handsome than the new Golf.

merc1

Opel seems to have done well enough over the past 50 or so years.

I don't know much about Opel, but from what I've read they're like a bottom feeder in Europe when compared to VW and others. I have no idea. I do like the design of the newer Opels, but I don't know any history of Opel or what they were before GM.

What I do know is what GM has totally goofed with Saab. Nobody else in the industry has done such pathetic rebadge jobs. Obviously Cadillac isn't immue either because they're going to try and pass a Saab off as the BLS in Europe. BLS? What the hell, sounds like a loser car!

M

logic1

GM bought Opel in the 1930s and has run it with Holden throughout. Opel/Holden have something over a 10% share in Europe. Par for the course in that fractured market.

In the last few years Opel sales and reputation have been gaining at the expense of VW.

Saab was never a successful brand. It was a commercial hobby of some military engineers who wanted something to do to take the pressure off of designing war jets and satellites.

The current 9-3 is about as good a Saab as there ever was. I do not fully agree with the 9-7 and 9-2, but will point out the Saab dealers in NA needed product. The forth coming Sports Combi should make a lot amends, especially in Europe, but in NA as well, now that more people are buying wagon like cars here.

The current plans to better integrate Saab into Opel should pay dividends for the brand. The

Kirstie_H

Let's focus on what effect Bob Lutz is having on GM. If you want to talk about specific vehicles, it'd be great if you could go to the vehicle-specific discussion. In particular, the Pontiac Solstice and Saturn Aura topics would be great places to share your perspective & info on these two upcoming cars.

kirstie_h
Roving Host
Host, Future Vehicles & Smart Shopper discussions

davem2001

What does Lutz have to do with a Ford Focus? LOL!

sls002

Bob Lutz is now in charge of Global product development, so it is hard not to bring up specific vehicles in this discussion, some of which may be GM's European models. Bob has had two new blog's in the GM blog website, found on the GM media site (...media.gm...). He does not seem upset over recent developments, and may have asked for his present position.

I think that we are just beginning to see products that Bob Lutz had a real hand in developing come to market. They are said to be much better than the old ones, but are not outstanding products (G6, LaCrosse, STS for example).

Kirstie_H

I knew that was coming!!

xkss

Bob Lutz had a part in the Solstice so it is only natural to talk about that.

Sales of the GTO have improved since it went on the market.

The 2006 Saab 9-3 Sportcombi looks pretty nice.

New Saab

lemko

...shareholders want Schremmp's head!

http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/business/11329429.htm

dtownfb

I heard on the radio this morning that GM will allow you to "test drive" a vehicle for a year before you commit. they are doing this for the LaCrosse, G6 and the Cobalt. If you don't like it you can simply return it. Interesting, risky, desparate????

carlisimo

Look for an influx of LaCrosses, G6s, and Cobalts in rental fleets next year!

xkss

were more than the sales of February and January put together.

nvbanker

Already seeing the fulfilment of LaCrosses and G6's (first ever, you know) in Vegas rental fleets. Haven't noticed Cobalts yet (anywhere).

xkss

Sales of the new GTO, while not what they were expected to be, have improved since the car went on sale. The new Mustang, available with a V-6, a V-8, coupe, or convertible has obviously outsold the new GTO, only available with a V-8 and coupe body.

1,375 GTOs were sold last month vs 719 the same month last year, an 84.2 % improvement. 3,261 GTOs have been sold year-to-date vs. 1,801 of a year ago, an 81.1 % improvement.

carlisimo

I expect the Cobalt to do pretty well; unlike most of GM's other offerings, it seems and feels competitive, at the least.

GM must need sales NOW if they're including it in that return policy, or maybe they're just still stupid.

nvbanker

"The new Mustang, available with a V-6, a V-8, coupe, or convertible has obviously outsold the new GTO, only available with a V-8 and coupe body"

Has the V-8 Coupe Mustang outsold the GTO? I'll bet it has...... It's all about the style - and the GTO has none.....the Mustang is loaded with it.