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Mazdaspeed3 vs. VW V GTI vs. Civic Si
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Comments
Seeing as how he's SUCH a big fan of stats....... :surprise:
Look at these numbers and which is the probabal winner (Bold text denotes advantage):
Horse power:
Si 197 MS3 263
Torque:
Si 139 MS3 280
Weight-HP ratio:
Si 14.6 MS3 11.8
Weight-TQ ratio:
Si 20.7 MS3 11.1
Standard Tires:
Si All-season Radials P215/45 R17 87V
MS3 Summer Radials P215 45 R18 93Y
I think the 0-60 6.3 M/T time will be beat, as well as Edmunds time of 6.8 for the Si.
Also, on a side note. Fuel economy. I know this is not of too much importance when purchasing vehicles like these, but, with only a 3mpg city, 4mpg highway EST advantage for the Civic, that hardly looks impressive considering the MS3 is .3L larger, and boasts 66 more horses and 141 more lbs. of Tq.
Weight of the MS3 seems to be around 3100 lbs. How'd they add so much weight to the car?!
Reminds me of a blog I saw somewhere...the poster was whining that she wanted to put regular in her $40 Lexus, to save $$.
I advised her to sell the Lexus, and buy something she could afford.
:-)
Where I am (Fairfield County, CT), premium is only $3.09 and regular is $2.91. If you drive 15,000/yr and average 20mi/gal, your fuel cost is $2,317.50 for premium. If you chose regular, it is $2182.50. Thats only a $135 difference. Shoot, I spend that on dinner every Saturday night. Thus, premium fuel is really no biggy. So, the premium fuel requirement should not be a financial burden on anyone, if it is, you have no business buying any of these vehicles.
If you do a comparo between the GTI and MS3 it is about $460/yr difference. However, the GTI costs $23,370 for a base model with 18" alloys, and the MS3 is only $22,800. That's a difference of $570.
My guess would be stiffer steel, the larger wheels, and the intercooler which IIRC is pretty heavy based on some posts in the SPEED6 threads.
Maybe you didn't catch that I found the savings nice. My current car - a 2006 330i - gets 20 mpg, which is what I would expect to get with a Mazdaspeed3. There are few reasons this gets old:
1. I'm forced to get gas once a week.
2. I'm fond of my money and when the fun-to-cost ratio isn't in order (like say with my BMW), I begin to wonder if I'd like to put that money into other things (blinds for a room, a new fence, 401k, savings, another vacation, more sushi, etc).
3. San Diego gas will in all likelihood break $4.00 a gallon in the near future. Each jump in price means every MPG makes a big difference. I spent a few hundred dollars driving around Europe in April. Expensive gas and cruddy gas mileage don't make for fun roadtrips.
The GTI's 25 mpg offers a substantial boost for both 1 and 2. Perhaps the MS3 will be a blast to drive - or at least more fun than my BMW - and thus I won't mind getting gas constantly and paying out $2500 a year for gas.
I wasn't talking about the regular v. premium debate. There's a performance difference when one cheaps out on gas. The performance gap between a GTI and Mazdaspeed3 could be wide but I'm betting it's gonna come down to Pepsi v. Coke. The GTI's got DSG, better mileage and fit/finish that only Audi trumps. The Mazda's got cat-like reflexes, lower ride height and Mazda reliability. Same prices approximately. The Mazdaspeed's more of a race car for the street - closer to the archaic WRX/STI and Evo but lacking in the AWD. The GTI's the long distance hauler that can be juiced up nicely with a few suspension and engine mods (strong aftermarket support too).
I'm not saying gas mileage alone will cause me to withdraw my deposit on a Mazdaspeed3. That the dealer is now saying end of October may be the cause of that..
I just filled up today, at a station that I usually go to just outside of Minneapolis, and paid $2.429 for 91 octane. If I had opted for either 87 OR 89 octane, I would have paid $2.399, just 3 cents a gallon less. 3 cents is this station's normal premium/regular differential, so for me it makes paying for premium a non-issue.
For the foreseeable future, gas prices generally appear to be headed down.
Until the day after the mid-term elections. Then we'll see gas prices rise faster than the space shuttle... :mad:
The MazdaSpeed 3 and the GTI are the only cars utilizing direct-injection (in addition to turbocharged) engines in this class - which is why they have the edge in low-end torque...
First, this car is, for me, so much better looking as a 4 door. The two door looks wide, tall and squat. This sucker is looks a decent length, the rear doors break up the sides and I live the rear view of the car for some odd reason. Helping the look, VW lowered the GTI for 07, so it's 22mm lower than the 06 models. Wow, what a difference 1 inch makes.
This was the cloth interior package (#1) - my first time in one - and I found it pretty comfy. My girlfriend immediataly complained about the tacky pattern on the seats. Okay, so if this is the car, leather it is.
I like the interior and feel of the 4 door more too. I've had mostly 4 doors in my life and i like having the b pillar right next to me. Can't explain it. But I like it. The extra length of the GTI 4 door made the car seem more open and roomy too**. The back's got good space and the upright seating position means even 6 footers can get behind me comfortably.
Love that trunk. Yeah it's not as deep as my 330i but the hatch action is awesome (BMW should incorporate that emblem trunk operation instead of their moronic little rubber button). Space is good, tall and close. Seats fold in a myriad of ways too. All the interior seems inteligently designed. One side note, the driving position, if when I kept the seat low, made me feel like I was sitting inside a tub. The dash is just too darned high.
So on to the drive. Last time I felt the 06 GTI 2 door was wobbly and too darned tall. The lowered ride height helps but the car still seems top heavy and in sweepers the understeer and teetering feeling kicked in no matter how I approached corners. From tracking my 330is I've been taught how to approach the line and get the car level and pointed in the right way...but that's for a RWD car. This puppy just wanted to understeer if I hit the corner already turning, at the turn or late into the corner. Still it hugged the road better than most cars but the lean and feeling of understeer became a tad frustrating. A sway would probably help and maybe even more lowering.
The engine's flat awesome. It pulled better than my 06 330i. Quite simply that 2.0T is a dream. Ripping onto the freeway a few time my girlfriend expressed shock at home much better the car pulls from 0 to 100 than my current car. The engine growl also added to the visceral fun of accelerating. You know the car's built for playing when you get on it hard. Obviously, the 400 lbs weight advantage for the GTI 4 door also helps make the power-to-weight better.
I attribute the following to the otherwise insanely fun DSG: the torque would come on with a squit. The car would start rolling at 1200 or so rpm and at 2000 the damned car would take off suddenly. I squealed the tires many times on launch. I'd say the dsg and my experience driving BMW manuals (you have to give Bimmers serious gas to get their fat butts moving) contributed to the squeal problem.
The 18s have to go. The road noise inside the cabin was ridiculous. We hopped into my 330i after the drive and immediately we both noticed that road roar wasn't present v. the GTI. Heck, the 3's got lousy runflats too, yet the tire noise wasn't nearly as severe. I'd like to try a GTI with 17s (I'm through with 18s) as that may cure the drone we heard.
On our 45 minute test drive - the guy gave us the keys and we split - we visited my sister so we could get feedback on their thoughts (overall positive). She and her husband loved the space, the packaging and the price. The gas mileage is nothing to sneeze at eiher, as that would represent a 25% base increase for me (I tend to get city mileage in my mixed driving).
Overall I'm conflicted now. The 07 GTI 4 door is a car I could live with easily. The power's great, the DSG addictive and the space, efficiency and cost all make this car an insane bargain. At 25k MSRP (figure 2k lower after dealing) it's hard to think much compares. I love the little growl the car makes at WOT - mentally it's so much more fulfilling than the dullness of the 330i at WOT.
That said, the FWD understeer of the car and the body leaning got on my nerves. Driving in my 330i the seating position felt much lower and natural (my old 46 had the perfect driving position, the e90 it's pretty good). The 330i's cornering attitude really does trump the GTI by a wide margin. Some say the GTI can whip through a slalom faster and maybe it can. But the chassis gives every indication that the car is going cause a flip or a serious slide when hitting corners fast. And finally the din. I'm assuming it's the 18s. If it isn't, then at 80+ the car's pretty darned loud. Not a deal breaker.
At this point, I'm left running numbers and trying to decide if I can put up with 11-12 more months of my 330i (BMW usually offers a lease buyout with 6 months left on the lease). The GTI 4 door offers a great value being fun, efficient, small, and hints of of luxury. My girlfriend thinks I'm more in love with the DSG and the size of the vehicle than the overall car: she contends i'm drawn to the turbo's power, the DSG's quickness and the smaller, lighter car without really enjoying the drive nearly as much. She could be right. Damn BMW for not selling a small car here!!! Her take: wait for BMW to release a DSG-like tranny and snatch up a massive 335i sedan in 08 in Europe.
Now if VW put 4 motion in this bugger...well argh. VW should release the R32 in the 4 door model here too. they've got it all over the world but here. From a Top Gear review I watched online that car looks like stupid fun for 32k.
** On the VW Boards people are saying the 2 and 4 door are the same length; they felt decidely different to me.
I drove a GLI last year and really liked it.. don't remember sitting too low.
2001 VW Jetta 1.8T Wolfsburg (sold June 2003)
2003 BMW 330i Perf. Package (returned May 2006)
2003 Mazda Protege ES (sold in June 2005)
2006 BMW 330i ZSP (picked up in Munich, April 6, 2006).
I'm never satisfied. And I'm the auto industry's dream come true. I go through cars constantly and the 2003 330i was the only car I've held through its entire round of lease/payments. Before 2001 I had a 91 Nissan Stanza I drove from 95 to 2001.
I live in GA, the lemon law does not help to return my car...beacuse it have not even been in the shop yet (i SUPPOSED TO HAVE AN APPOINMENT WITH THEM TO FIX IT NEXT TUESDAY, BUT THE ENGINE LIGHT CAME UP TO DAY)
Together with that they sold me the car with a contract that is subject to aproval, and they just ask me that the need that my co signer have to go like primary...and I have paper work again..will that be my way to finish with this nightmare?
So if i refuse to make a new contract they just have to keep the car, ant thay don't suppose to charge nothing to me?
I need help as soon as possible, if someone know about this, or had the same situation I will apreciate advises...I do not wanna keep a "new problem car"
please help :lemon:
LOOK at all those red ones lined up ready to eat up GTI's. mmmm...
http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/ArticleDetail.aspx?ArticleID=18339&vf=15
I couldn't tell from the review but I wonder if a pre-production car was being evaluated? Is it possible that the behaviour of the torque steer management system was still being tweeked?
I don't know how much to trust those reviews. I don't see the horses listed anywhere for those cards. Their conclusion seems very unsatisfactory. They need to list out in order what they think each car is rated on a scale. Also, MOTOR TREND did a write up on the SPEED3 and they were impressed. so that gives us conflicting reviews. which is not good for the consumer basically. At this point, I still think MS3 will be a fun to drive car and nice overall.
By the way, news on the ship carrying MS3's for the west coast is that its being pulled into Seattle harbor and after inspecting. All damaged cards will be sold are used..so there are going to be some insane deals on the west coast.
A list of the VIN's of all Mazda's on the Cougar Ace which are salvagable and offered for sale will, at some point, be listed on Mazda's web-site (and sold as 'used' rather than as 'new'; I have no idea what kind of warranty will come with those cars).
Here's another hands-on review of the upcoming Speed3 (with the reviewer doing track-time at Laguna Seca):
http://cars.ign.com/articles/730/730560p1.html
Where did you see this? I was under the impression that the MS3 used the same electro-hydraulic system found in the regular production Mazda3
That 5.9 0-60 (Edmunds is always conservative) and 68.2 mph slalom tells ya everything you need to know about how this car will fair against the vaunted SI.
Let's see, it's off the line over a second faster than the SI and can corner almost as fast. Of course, coming out of the corner the car's got 280 ft-lbs of torque to hammer home, giving it a terminal velocity in straights that an SI would never be able to achieve.
How will Mazda keep these things on lots?!
Many more dealers marked up the Honda Civic Si, and some continue to try to do so.
I used to get mad about stuff like that, now, I just don't care. If someone wants to pay up, let them.
There are plenty of cool cars out there, and more on the way....like the 2008 replacement for the WRX, among others.
Hard to believe people are dropping 27k on a Honda Civic SI.
Good luck to them.
Ridiculous USED Si
nothing crooked about it..nobody has to buy the car if they don't like the price....if you advertised your personal car for more than it was worth and somebody offered to buy it would you turn the buyer away? I suspect you would be laughing all the way to the bank..thrilled that you found an idiot who was stupid enough to pay your asking price...
One notable quote I'll paraphase here "...and it'll slap a Civic Si silly."
Overall, they were very impressed (with one editor writing that "the line for a new Speed3 forms behind me). Their biggest gripe concerned the feel of the shifter.....and difficulty in perfecting their launch technique.
They had a real tendency to either completely boil the tires, resulting in poor times, or let the revs fall too much and come off boost. They noted they 'painted' their launch area black with more than 30 launches trying to fine tune their technique.
As I said, overall they were very impressed.
Gas mileage? Better color selection? It's got a really nifty logo?
About the only way the Si would be superior (IMO) would be a better shifter (of course, this is only going by published reviews of both cars; since I've not driven EITHER one, I can't speak to the relative driving qualities).
"Honda vs Mazda, any day."
Are you driving a car, or a car company? BTW - I'm currently on my FOURTH Honda (started with a CRX in '84, a CRX Si in '86, a Civic Si in '91 and my wife currently drives an '05 Odyssey) so don't think I'm just dismissing the current Civic Si (or Honda) out of hand.
It's just that I'd rather attempt to directly compare a Speed3 to a Civic Si (or against whatEVER I might be interested in) and compare the actual vehicles rather than get bogged down in which is the better overall company.
BTW - C&D stated that the difference between the Si and the Speed3, IN THEIR TESTING, was 1.4 seconds. But I'd rather see comparison times done by the same drivers on the same days on the same track in a direct head-to-head comparison than to try and dig up stats on cars tested months (years?) apart.
I think you better do some homework before you post next time so you can save yourself from looking like an idiot...
Mazda is owned 33.4% by Ford, so what? Mazda had it's best sales year EVER in 2005, with their ever so popular sporty line-up. Mazda is also on pace to smash 2005's sales record as well. (www.mazdausa.com).
Where do you base your opinion that Mazda is going down hill? What info are you privledged that the rest of us are not to know this?
In terms of reliability and quality. I can disagree. I have owned Honda's in the past, and currently own a Mazda. No issues reported for either. Resale value? Currently the Mazda6, Mazda3 are right on pace in resale value with the Accord and Civic.
This is not a Honda Vs. Mazda thread, let's try to stay somewhat on topic.
I can go to the auction and get more money for a Mazda3 then the 2006 Civic, comparably equipped. Mazda6's and Honda Accords do roughly similar money.