Mazdaspeed3 vs. VW V GTI vs. Civic Si

msp3owner

What is hard to believe is that you guys had such a hard time believing that I already had a MazdaSpeed3...and sorry about the bird.

License plate says Beautiful British Columbia...last week it was still 77F up here. Not anymore though...

Anyway, no hard feelings, just drive on and enjoy the wheels you got under you. :shades:

doubleohseven

It's true, the leaves turn much later in the Pacific Nortwest because Pacific air keeps temperatures moderate - I used to live in New England so I know.

I sat in a red MS3 here in Seattle on wednesday, and there is a lot of orange in the red. It's a fire-engine red, not dark at all, no blue in it. No heated seats after all, but the bolstering is excellent. Wanted to drive it but it was pre-sold.

thegraduate

Fair enough; I guess the human mind (mine anyway) had trouble with several little nuances that made the story iffy... I look back now though, and I wonder why anyone would lie about that... Now I feel idiotic!

aviboy97

The color discrepancy is what set me off. Plus the fact that I was unaware that the MS3 was released that early in Canada, and is just starting to be released here.

autonomous

Have a grand time with the Mspd3 and let us know all the details!

p.s. Beware of green hornets, road hogs and other pesky nuisances getting in the way of a great drive.

doubleohseven

Hey, that orange appearance in the original pics threw all of us off. Looked like a bad photoshop.

Gotta say, I remain disappointed that this car was going to have heated seats and now doesn't. Also, after spending some seat time in the GTI, I find the MS3's light grey headliner a little pedestrian, and wish they'd gone with black ala VW. I believe the MS3 will be a special car, it just didn't feel that way sitting in it. The leather bolsters were sweet but otherwise it feels like a standard 3. Guess I gotta drive it. Also, red is its worst color, it's not a rich red. Even the Mazda guys were saying as such.

I am still up in the air. The GTI will have lowered suspension and upgraded seats by Feb, but the MS3 still pulls my reliability leash.

pegasuszz

Right now it seems Mazda has tuned it close - sometimes past - the the detonation (knock) limit, so it would take efficiency improvements for practical gains. It could take pulling the heads to lower compression a tad for large gains, but I'm thinking of 15% under the curve (don't care about peak). Short of an M3 or M5 I've never heard of an factory car that didn't have 5 or 10% worth of simple compromises somewhere - intake, exhaust, camshaft or spark/fuel. There are so many constraints for engineers that they almost never get to tune something to 100%.

Word is that there is very little headroom in the stock turbo, but perhaps the turbo can be modified internally (so that it retains it's stock appearance). I'm also thinking there may be a few ft/lbs in the intake. Beyond that it gets expensive - I'd guess moving the intercooler up front and a larger exhaust would be required past 325hp - if one can even get that far.

thegraduate

I find the MS3's light grey headliner a little pedestrian, and wish they'd gone with black ala VW. I believe the MS3 will be a special car, it just didn't feel that way sitting in it. The leather bolsters were sweet but otherwise it feels like a standard 3. Guess I gotta drive it. Also, red is its worst color, it's not a rich red. Even the Mazda guys were saying as such.

Well, with a darker headliner, the car takes on more of a "tomb" feel to it, especially with black upholstry. With lighter gray, it is lighter and airier feeling (I'd imagine).

I don't like the red either, but then again, I'm a fan of the Alabama CRIMSON Tide, so I'm biased towards a darker red (a la my 1996 Accord LX in Bordeaux Red, which basically looks the color of red wine).

aviboy97

You should check out some of the other sites with Mazdaspeed6 forums. There are a few manufacturers right now that make bolt-on's (turbo back exhaust, CAI, BOV) that push HP over 300. Also, a moded MS6 with bolt-on's and a front mounted intercooler are running low 13's in the quarter mile. That's impressive with a 3600 lb vehicle.

I do not see why these mods will be any different for the Mazdaspeed3, and should make this car capable of breaking 13 second quarter mile without messing with the internals or messing with the computer systems or turbo.

Currently, CP-E makes the most efficient performance mods for the Mazdaspeed6, with this being the same engine, look for these parts to be available on the Mazdaspeed3.

pegasuszz

What sites? Do you have a link to the low 13s car? That's enough to be fun, but still unimpressive for an modded awd vehicle - a 4000lb GTO will do low 13s, and prolly a dead stock STI.

blueguydotcom

Yeah, black interior and black headliner is dark. I still miss my black headliner from my 03 bmw (but it had gray leather and black mats so there was a two-tone effect).

rorr

"a 4000lb GTO will do low 13s....."

Actually, C&D listed the curb weight of the GTO they tested (infamous GTO vs Mustang test) at less than 3800 lbs.

Of course, the GTO is rated at 400hp and 400ftlbs for a power/weight ratio of 9.5 lbs/hp.

And a modded Speed6 with (fer instance....320hp) at 3600 lbs would have a power/weight ratio of over 11 lbs/hp. So, even modded, a Speed6 would be at a deficit. Yeah, the AWD will help, but I think low 13's is still a pretty decent time, even for a modded Speed6.

msp3owner

Who is CP-E and how do I find them online? I wouldn't mind chatting with them about my Speed3.

Thanks.

doubleohseven

"Well, with a darker headliner, the car takes on more of a "tomb" feel to it, especially with black upholstry. With lighter gray, it is lighter and airier feeling (I'd imagine). "

Yeah, to each their own - go sit in a GTI for comparison. Black seems richer, sportier and less distracting to me. Mini started offering a dark headliner too. But that's why there's crunchy and smooth Peanut Butter...

autonomous

Custom Performance Engineering at http://www.cp-e.com/

Enjoy!

pegasuszz

I was just speaking to a Mazdaspeed dealer regarding the Sp3. They have not even gotten their first delivery yet! They say 2 weeks.
What are they selling for? Web chatter is everything from full MSRP to $300 over invoice.

aviboy97

That's enough to be fun, but still unimpressive for an modded awd vehicle - a 4000lb GTO will do low 13s, and prolly a dead stock STI.
Replies to this message:

You are forgetting that the STi is 300lbs lighter, 270hp-280ft lbs Vs. 293hp-290ft lbs (new SAE HP ratings) You can see why a "dead stock" STi does low 13's, some have broken 13 stock.

www.CP-E.com. I have spoken with the owners, they are very knowledgeable and their products are proven performers for all those wondering about moding your Mazdaspeed3 or Mazdaspeed6.

audia8q

One dealer in CT is asking $5000 over...and its not me.

aviboy97

Me neither...

pegasuszz

"....but the car is so undeniably FUN! It's quick and light, and the fact that it's utterly impractical STOPS MATTERING. It's not about practicalty with cars like this, its about fun."

You hit it. Who cares if x car beats y on a dragstrip? It's everything if I'm a drag racer, and a footnote if I'm not. We can take forum opinions as hints on which cars to check out and how the mfr treats customers after the sale. Maybe the SP3 will be the most fun of anything you test, maybe not. The only way to know what which wheels to to buy for YOU is... drive them.
Wish I could have 2 cars, with the S2000 as the 2nd.

eldaino

I read this review too and i've learned to not really pay too much attention to car and driver; many automotive magazines (including them) have called the civic si's chassis to be amazing and unflappable. Calling it flimsy in this article seems a far cry from their previous ones even given the difference in the test paramaters. While i do not think that the si is the most 'amazing' car ever, it probably could out handle a gli. Maybe not in zero to sixty times (most si owners have accepted this) but when the roads get curvy the vw's weaknesses show. IT's less evident in the gti, it being a 2 door hatch, but the jetta is heavier even than the gti and although it posesses that sweet turbo four, the si has it beat on the handling marks, even if it's just by a little. I think anyone who considers an si should do so because of its handling and not for zero to sixty times. An 8000 rpm redline is cool, takes getting used to, but i think its cool; but it fails a little compared to 207 lbs torque that veedubs' engine makes. I give si the handling marks (even if it is only by a little) but i certainly wouldn't say that the gli or the gti for that matter 'aren't' true sports cars. I think they are just as much sports cars as the si is. The si may be the best si ever (that too is subjective) but its not the most amzing sub 25k sport compact out there. I like it a lot, but i feel that the gti is more my taste. Can't wait for the new r32 and r36, wont be as cheap as the ms3 but it will give it a run for its money.

aviboy97

The R36 should beat the MS3, but, the R32 does not. If it follows the trend of the R32, it should have the Haldex AWD system (not Quattro) same found in the Mazdaspeed6 , and put out close to 280 hp, with the engine being sourced from the Passat.

eldaino

I thought that the all wheel drive system used on the old (and soon to be) r32 was one volkswagen was calling 4motion which is just their name for audi's quattro, at least thats what some edmunds and c/d articles were saying. Avi i think that the new r32 should at least be close enought in comparison to the ms3 performance wise right? Mabye it wont obliterate it, but fairly close? Now the r36 will be a force to be reckoned with...

aviboy97

I thought that too, but, it is actually Haldex, not 4-Motion (Quattro). If you look at engine pictures, you will notice the the engine is transverse mounted, this is because the R32 has a front drive default system, Haldex. If it were Quattro, the engine would be mounted front to back, power transefered via the center diff, which Haldex does not have.

And the incoming R32 or R36, which ever they decide to bring over here, will be Haldex AWD as well.

I happen to agree the the R32 is a close comparo to the Mazdaspeed3. Mazdaspeed3 is quicker, but, the R32 has AWD. I'm not totally familiar with the R32, but, I know the MS3 is great in the corners as well as a straight line.

If the R36 does make it to the U.S shore, it should beat the Mazdaspeed3

eldaino

Oh ok. Thanks for shedding the light. I know they are bringing the r32 fo sho over here, i've seen pictures of it and it looks great, although it does incorporate volkswagens shiny grill on the front. The r36 is rumored but nothing is set in stone. I know that the last r32 was constantly compared to the sti and to the mitsu evo, so i guess it a lot like the ms3 in the sense that it performed so well, it got compared to cars a cut above it. The ms3 is not really gunning for wrxs but it ranks up there with it. Personally i think that instead of comparing the ms3 with the si and gti it SHOULD be compared with the likes of the r32 and the civic type r (which aside from styling is a bit of a dissapointment performance wise) since they compare better from a performance and price point of view.

Apparently the r32 was an amazing handler just not as ultra precise and it was a bit slower, but it had a refinement to it(when compared with its harsher japanese rivals)that the evo and sti could not match, there fore making it a better all around car. Since everyone seems to be comparing the ms3 to the regular wrx and gti, i think its safe to say that the r32 has nothing to worry about? :confuse:

aviboy97

The reason the MS3 compares to the Si and GTI is because they are FWD. The R32 is AWD.

The MS3 also falls short to the STi and EVO, by quite a bit in terms of sheer power. The R32 falls way short as well.

Yes, the R32 has a more forgiving ride the the STi/EVO, and a higher build quality on the interior, but no where the power/performance.

Actually, in a straight line, the R32 is slower then the MS3 in 0-60(6.4) and 1/4 mile(14.5). Those numbers are also WAY slower compared to the STi/EVO.

The current R32 almost falls in no mans land. No real head to head competition. The MS3 is faster, nut, no AWD. AWD competition blows it away, STi/EVO. Really, if you think about it, where does the R32 belong??

eldaino

If no mans land is my driveway (or more technically my apt. complex parking lot), then i'll take it!! The mazdaspeed 3 may be a bit faster but does that mean that the r32 does not compare? Ok so it has all wheel drive, and that does put it in the sti/evo range, but again, how much faster are those cars than the r32? If the mazdaspeed 3 can outrun a civic si, (which apparently is it's direct competition, by a very long margin,more than a second as i have read), why does that leave the r32 in no mans land? So its a more civilized version of an awd high performance compact car that ranks higher on creature comforts than on performance; its performance is not sub par, just not entirely up to par with other cars in the segment. And in the same manner that the civic si or gti are 'WAY slower' than the ms3, that does not leave THEM in no mans land. Different strokes for different folks. Performance numbers aside, there is something uncommonly cool about a subtle sports car like an r32, as oppossed to the loud, brash, (even somewhat annoying) look and sound of the boy racer vibe that the evo and sti give off. Still very nice cars, but as far as i personally go, i'd still take the r32. And take into consideration we are speaking about the previous generation r32, not the new generation being made available to us soon. As far as no mans land goes, the r32 has no problems avoiding it to me.

aviboy97

I compare the Civic Si and the GTI to the MS3 because of similar price, and all are FWD, as do most.

The previous generation R32 was priced around $30K and has AWD. Not really the same market that the MS3, Si and GTI are targeting(sub $25K). It was abundantly clear with higher HP and AWD, and thousands more in price that VW did not want the R32 to compete against it's own GTI. Rather, VW placed this car in price, performance and drive train more similar to the STi and EVO. See my correlation? If you were not looking for just performance, but, wanted built quality and more of an every day ride and more of a "grown up feel", then I suppose the R32 would be for you. Personally, I think when you approach the $30K range, there are much better vehicles out there that provide similar performance, if not better, and better built quality. That is why I made the statement of "no mans land". Just my personal opinion.

The R32 not a bad vehicle, by any means in terms of performance and over all feel, but, at that price tag, I do think it is a bit lacking. You can get the "grown up" feel in the Mazdaspeed6 with more power, same AWD system and good build quality for less.

When buying or shopping vehicles it is all about what each individual is looking for. As you said "different strokes for different folks"

eldaino

agreed man.

fasterthanyou

You say you find R32 "a bit lacking" and consider Mazdaspeed 6 a good alternative?. Well, seems that everybody disagrees with you.
The only thing in common between VW R32(6 cylinder) and Mazdaspeed 6(4 cylinder with turbo) is the AWD. These are not comparable cars and nobody that knows about cars would cross shop them. While they come close in original pricing(msrp) the REAL selling price is about 10000 difference. There is a reason for which a brand new Mazdaspeed 6 cannot sell for 22000(6-7000 discount)and a used r32(previous generation) sells for more than 30000 . Hope you will find it some day because it is so obvious for everybody else.

rorr

"Hope you will find it some day because it is so obvious for everybody else."

It is?

And what, pray tell, makes a used R32 worth $10k more than a new Speed6?

VW mystique?

blueguydotcom

limited availability. the fact the r32 sold at and above sticker while the mazdaspeed6 is essentially given away.

aviboy97

Well, seems that everybody disagrees with you.

"Everybody" is quite a lot of people, I suppose you have evidence that the millions of drivers out there all would buy a $30,000 Golf over a Mazdaspeed6?

These are not comparable cars and nobody that knows about cars would cross shop them.

Actually, there are quite a bit of people that do, I see them on a daily. Just because you would not cross them, does not mean others wont?

Have you ever driven an R32? I have. Very lacking in comparison to what you can get for the same money. That was my argument, and you happen to say nothing to negate my conclusion. Really, $30,000 for a Golf that is outperformed by plenty, including the Mazdaspeed6.

You forget that the Mazdaspeed6 is marketed (do you know what that means??) to people cross shopping BMW, Audi, Infiniti. If there was a blunder that was made, it was marketing the vehicle, hence the rebates currently on the vehicle. That is apparent to everyone who knows about the vehicle. Plus, no automatic transmission, which people this car is marketed to, look for.

The R32 is marketed to the younger buyer,who typically buy's on impulse and "got to have" factor, who looks at the STi and EVO. So, VW got younger people sucked in to paying $30,000 for a vehicle that can't hold a candle to the aforementioned STi/EVO. Mazda has marketed the Mazdaspeed3 a similar group, and gives you better performance then the R32, less the AWD, for under $25,000. Currently, it is very tough to get a Mazdaspeed3.

The more mature buyer that the Mazdaspeed6 is targeted to is more savvy, and more reluctant to purchase, or spend $30,000 with out doing major homework, and very seldom do they buy on impulse.

A few business classes, along with marketing knowledge would have painted that picture for you.

blueguydotcom

A few business classes, along with marketing knowledge would have painted that picture for you.

Did you point this out to the Mazda execs that screwed up the Mazdaspeed6 so royally too?

Miscues Mazda could have avoided but decided enthusiasts wouldn't notice:

An AWD system that's FWD bias.
Gearing spaced so tightly the car requires 3 shifts to hit 60.
Complete lack of a cruising gear - thus wretched freeway mileage.
Adding 400 lbs to an already portly car.

Then again, these are the same folks who continue to pump out a great handling, though woefully underpowered RX-8.

d_hyper

I don't think they "screwed up" royally. All 'Speed cars along with RX-8 are image makers and technology development test beds. They are not really meant to bring a lot of profit, especially considering their limited numbers built. Consider the hype Prius makes for Toyota despite still selling at loss.

Also, if you need 3 shifts to 60 but only 2 to 55, does it make it less of a performance car? It only affects 0-60 metric.

blueguydotcom

Drive a speed6, you can't even approach 90 in third. In 6th at 100 mph the car's churning in the upper revs and killing gas mileage. The gearing's so far off from reasonable it makes the car a bore. Add in the lousy FWD-biased drive, massive weight and soft suspension...you get a crummy car that's the antithesis of a performance sedan.

The Mazdaspeed6 was meant to compete with the G35, # series, IS, etc. It was supposed to be something it isn't: a performance sedan. Instead it languishes on lots because so many mistakes were made with the implementation of the car. If you think a 30k car selling for 23-24k isn't a black eye for Mazda, you're probably one of those special GM-ish/Ford-like execs who think halo car should translate to absolute failure (ie the GTO, speed6).

Admittedly the Mazdaspeed3 is closer to hitting its market but even that car has some problems.

The RX8 is one more example of Mazda blowing what could have been great. Decent looking car with supreme handling and zero power. They missed that last element which would help push sales.

groovypippin

Your favorite hobby still picking apart Mazdas, blueguydotcom?

While I think some of your criticims of the MazdaSpeed 6 are valid, I think your criticism of the RX-8 is simply personal bias. You obviously like a car with a certain amount of low-end grunt. You may drive a car with a manual transmission, but clearly you don't like shifting gears very much. Both the RX-8 and the MX-5 are cars that remind us of the valus of light weight and excellent balance. Neither are all that fast in a straight line, but both are incredibly fun to drive.

I don't care if a car goes 150 MPH because I will never drive it that fast. I care that a car puts a smile on my face every time I get behind the wheel. Mazdas do an excellent job of that, at a reasonable price with good quality and reliability.

I think some of your criticisms of the MazdaSpeed 6 are valid, but rather than complaining about what you wish the car was, let's talk about what it is instead. And let's talk about what you can buy for comparable dollars, instead of complaining that it isn't as good as cars that cost many thou$and$ more.

The MazdaSpeed 6 was never meant to compete directly with a BMW or Audi or even an Infiniti. It was meant to deliver a much higher level of performance in the mid-sized sedan category at a still reasonable price. That basic mission was accomplished. The car has faults - many of which you have pointed out. The biggest fault the car has - sadly - is the lack of an automatic transmission. Despite all the die-hard manual drivers on this board and others, most folks don't want to have to shift gears.

If this thing had been made available with a nice 6-speed automatic, it probably would have sold in higher volumes at a higher price-point. Sad, but true.

thegraduate

We COULD talk about the cars listed in the title. Maybe.

blueguydotcom

Groovy, anyone who has paid attention to this board, the Miata, Protege or Mazda3 boards knows I'm a huge Mazda fan. I call Mazda the BMW of Japan. They're the only Japanese or American car company that consistently builds drivers' cars.

That said, I'd take the Civic Si, GTI and Mazdaspeed3 over the RX-8 or lousy Mazdaspeed6 in a heartbeat. As a ridiculously biased Mazda fan, even I realize those two cars are worthless due to decisions by bean-counting, clownish executives.

The Mazdaspeed3 is a great attempt. Should Mazda ever make that awesome RWD coupe they showed off, the Kabura (even with the Miata's current engine, I will gladly step up and buy one. That assumes they gear it like the Miata, of course. Or gear it better.

As for your ridiculous statements about manuals and shifting: I live in 3rd and 4th gear in my 330i. Sixth is for cruising, road trips, etc - 100+ mph and 28 mpg.

aviboy97

The AWD system is the Mazdaspeed6 is not lousy. It out handles the Legacy GT Spec B. Please point out 1 post in any of the Mazdaspeed6 forums that own the Mazdaspeed6 and say that the AWD system has EVER let them down. I bet you won't find one. By the way, it's the same AWD that is in the R32.
Though "woefully" underpowered as you call it, still does 0-60 in 6 or less, and out handles most every car in it's class, and has earned the top spot in Car and Drivers coveted "Top Ten"
Anyway's, back to the topic at hand....

eldaino

I would take the R32!! avi we've been through this, it does lack compared to sti/evo, but i wouldn't say that the mazdazpeed 3 has it beat. It also is much more of a comfortable car when compared to the sti/evo and the performance (although it would be third place) is not like 'oh my god this is awful i could have gotten so much better!' and those who want to purchase it are very happy from what i hear, they are still hard to find and their price tag has not really changed...i'd say that speaks worlds about the car.

blueguydotcom

I've driven the Mazdaspeed6 and it understeers like crazy into corners. The system is FWD-bias and that, coupled with the lousy gearing and extreme weight make for a car that's sub par to everything in this particular forum (Si, GTI and Mazdaspeed3).

It's all subjective. But to me, subjectively, the GTI and Mazdaspeed3 are far better cars. Smaller, lighter, more responsive...

audia8q

It's all subjective. But to me, subjectively, the GTI and Mazdaspeed3 are far better cars. Smaller, lighter, more responsive

Does smaller and lighter make a car better? Better for who?

The whole idea of the speed6 was to stretch the brand a little beyond the traditional mazda customer. Mazda's avg buyer is the youngest in the entire auto industry. (this is huge for mazda, every carmaker wants this demographic) This speed didn't thrill the young crowd of traditional mazda buyers...Most of our buyers never considered Mazda before the speed6.

The 3speed is aimed directly at Mazda's core buyer and the demands shows it nailed the target dead on.

aviboy97

I know we have been through it, and understand, and respect each other's point of view It was Blueguy I was replying to.

aviboy97

The 3speed is aimed directly at Mazda's core buyer and the demands shows it nailed the target dead on.

Yahtzee!

blueguydotcom

I didn't complain about the speed3. It's a great little car. The speed6 is the one that I feel missed the boat totally. Sort of Mazda's own GTO.

aviboy97

Your favorite hobby still picking apart Mazdas, blueguydotcom?

Actually, Blueguy is a Mazda fan. I see him a bit in other Mazda forums.

fasterthanyou

"you have evidence that millions of buyers out there would buy $30,000 Golf over a Mazdaspeed 6?"

The evidence is right in front of you just look at all the Mazdaspeed 6 sitting in the lot.

"you forget that Mazdaspeed is marketed to people cross shopping BMW, Audi"

That shows WHO really doesn't understand marketing and that's Mazda or you because I am not sure that Mazda really did market their car against luxury brands. Who in the right mind will cross shop BMW and Mazda?

VW R32 doesn't compete with STI and EVO more than a Mazdaspeed 6. In fact is Mazdaspeed 6 that has more similarities with this two ( poorly finished exterior and cheap looking interior). That GOLF(R32) looks like a luxury car by comparison and if 0 to 60 is not all you want from your car there is nothing that can match the amount of fun per dollar in the auto industry.

P.S. If this is what you learned in your business classes I think you should ask for a refund. Seriously.

thegraduate

That GOLF(R32) looks like a luxury car by comparison

How many luxury compact hatchbacks have you ever seen? Personally, I think neither of these cars LOOKS worthy of $30k. They may drive like it, but neither of them are stylistically marvelous.

d_hyper

"If this is what you learned in your business classes I think you should ask for a refund."
In marketing terms, this is called "extending the brand". It takes years to change the perception, but it has to be started somewhere. I know at least several people who cross-shopped BMW/Saab with MZS6 caring less about brands cache. Besides, in this case no harm has been done to the core brand's image. Roll back the clock 10 years and people would have laughed at you if you mentioned luxury and VW, or BMW and VW in the same sentence.