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Mazdaspeed3 vs. VW V GTI vs. Civic Si
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Comments
Why not just expand this one to be inclusive of all three (Speed3 vs. GTI vs. Si)? After all, it's been a while since any GTI fans were in here and that way our resident Civic Si fan can help keep this thread going.
Besides, something tells me that Edmunds just MIGHT have a 'hot hatch' comparo in the works and this place would be the perfect place to discuss it.
I like having the lone Si fan here. Makes things interesting!
The current issue of M/T does a comparo and the author states that Mazdaspeed3 won, convincingly.
Everytime I look at the Mazda interior, I get this kind of plasticky feel, a sort of cheapness that's hard to put my finger on. When I look at the Honda, I see well thought out intrumentation, alluring seats, a KICKIN stereo, and an overall more sporty and futuristic look. The interior is what connects the driver to the vehicle, and it's utterly critical. Also, as a MINI Cooper S driver, I can attest to the importance of the fun factor in a car. Cars like MINI's really make you feel a part of the experience, whereas I wonder if the heavy shifter and bulky frame (not to mention a 3150 lb weight) will make everything sort of numb...what we really need is a DIRECT comparison between the cars. It'll make all the difference in the world if we can get the opinions of each car in direct comparison to the other.
I totally disagree. The interior of the Mazda3 is far more inviting to me as a driver. The seating position, the telescoping/tilting wheel, the windshield, instruments all fall to hand. The Civic's erogonomics weren't up to what I expect and the dash is just plain ludicrous - it's long, the speedo's in an odd/distracting place and outward visibility is strange as the massive/long a pillar.
The Mazdaspeed3 supposedly improves on the already good interior - providing drivers with a better seat.
But then again, I just read about a new Mazdaspeed (read: covered by warranty) accessory kit that boosts the MS3 to 298 hp and 310 lb/ft of torque, fixes the suspension, and adds lighter wheels. Numbers like that just blow the Honda out of the water, and the kit only costs $2000. For the Honda to match those numbers would mean a lot of money, and possibly voiding the warranty. As much as I HATE to admit it, the Honda has been bested. I'm still a HUGE fan of the Civic, and if a Type R ever comes to the US, I'd be all over that like a fat kid on a cupcake, but until that wonderful day, I'm going to have to drop my 28 grand on the GT Mazdaspeed3, with Navigation and Mazdaspeed Accesory Kit.
Evo Drivers, ye be warned. You're about to be passed by a Mazda that costs $10,000 less. Bitches.
Be careful of that statement. The Mazdaspeed3 was beaten in 0-60 by the far less refined WRX, according to M/T (5.5-6.0)
But the MS3 catches and passes shortly after that.
Without AWD, it will be tough to launch and keep up with an EVO.
By the way, I am 6'3", and have plenty more room in the Mazda3 then the Civic. Also, there is an abundance of plastic on both vehicles. I think both have equal build quality.
I prefer the bottom-end torque of the turbocharged, direct-injected Mazdaspeed and VW as opposed to the high-rpm, non-existent torque curve of the Honda (and Honda is supposed to have the "advanced-technology" engines)...
I'm not sure what you usually drive or what you're comparing the Si to. The last few cars I've owned all have over 200 ft-lbs of torque. Going from inline 6s, V6s or turbo 4s to the Si, I felt like the the car moved decently but not with anything I'd term "ample power." To each his own.
They don't need a turbo to get power.
Honda needs something and they know it...the Honda RDX is proof positive that honda realizes high-strung low-torque NA 4s aren't cutting it anymore.
As for the torque discussion, you simply CANNOT compare a N/A 2.0 liter, 4 cylinder to a straight six or anything else larger than that. We're talking a TINY engine, that produces almost 200 hp WITHOUT the use of forced induction. That in itself is a technological masterpiece. It's cheaper, you don't suffer from turbo lag, and you don't have to worry about hot oil from your turbo damaging your engine when you shut it off. Now, with these advantages comes a large drawback: low-end torque is going to suffer. That's what you get when you choose to try and find a way OTHER than forced induction to get your numbers.
But now for the fun part: Yes, the interior in the Honda is plasticky. But, it's futuristic plastic damnit, and it looks COOL. So if you're looking for a refined vehicle to show off to the chaps at the country club, look elsewhere. If you want something that's just darn cool looking and a blast to drive, go for the Civic (or a MINI for that matter. Just wait for the new ones to come out).
If practicality means more to you, then go for the Mazda. It's got better numbers, and while it may not look as balls out crazy as the Honda, it's still got some serious style.
In the end though, it all comes down to preference. So everyone, GO TEST DRIVE THESE SUCKERS! Then come back and tell us what you though of it. It'd make this discussion a lot more interesting.
Hardly. 2.0s making 200 hp = yawn. Honda's S2000 made over 240 hp back at its introduction in 2000.
It's cheaper, you don't suffer from turbo lag, and you don't have to worry about hot oil from your turbo damaging your engine when you shut it off.
Welcome to the 21st century. You don't worry or suffer from turbo lag with a 2.0 turbo any more and you have zero worries about hot oil (today's engines continue to cycle the oil after the vehicle is turned off).
it looks COOL.
Looks are worthless. Functionality is more important. That long dash, long, thick a-pillars and massive windshield are a detriment when behind the wheel.
It's got better numbers, and while it may not look as balls out crazy as the Honda, it's still got some serious style.
You and I buy cars for different reasons. The physical appearance of the car means squat. Sales of seriously ugly cars like the GTI, WRX, Evo, 3 series, G35 prove more and more people are putting driving characteristics over something as worthless as exterior style. You drive a car from the inside.
I have driven the GTI and Si. GTI gets my vote without a second's hesitation. Better car in just about everyway. Handling is where the Civic beats out the GTI. Tunability, comfort, convenience, technology, extras that make driving better = the GTI.
Having driven the Mazda3, I'd take it over the Si too. Even when it's down on power it's a better all-around car, in my experience.
You're very right though, you and I buy cars for very different reasons. To be clear though, I regard the GTI, WRX, Evo, BMW 3 series, and the G35 as some of the most beautiful cars in existence. And if exterior style and looks are "worthless," then why do manufacturers spend millions of dollars every year in designing them, hm? While this doesn't seem to matter to you, everyone I've ever met, enthusiast or not, cares to some degree about the way their car looks both inside and out. Maybe I and my peers are an anomaly, but then again maybe you are.
I'm glad you've driven the cars and expressed your opinion, but please don't make sweeping generalizations and derisive comments. They're quite rude, when all I want to do is discuss some wonderful cars. So please be respectful in expressing your opinion.
Oh, I admit I buy cars for different reasons than most people. Handling, ergonomics, tranny, etc matter to me before things like cupholders, reliability, exterior looks.
I'm glad you've driven the cars and expressed your opinion, but please don't make sweeping generalizations and derisive comments. They're quite rude, when all I want to do is discuss some wonderful cars. So please be respectful in expressing your opinion.
I have no idea what brought on that but I apologize if I hurt your feelings or offended you. Just commented on the hyperbole regarding the Honda 2.0 and the appearance of said car.
A nice helping of irony?
I did comment correctly on this statement. You must be careful about saying the Mazdaspeed3 will dust an EVO if it is equipped with this "accessory" kit you are talking about. With similar HP and no AWD for the Speed3, it would be tough to keep up, especially when 1st and 2nd gear's are electronically limited in power. Maybe we should wait until there is a comparo between the Mazdaspeed Mazdaspeed3 and EVO X.
As for the rest of your statement, I think you meant to reply to another poster. I never talked about anything you replied to in your post. Not to sound like an [non-permissible content removed], but you might want to read a little closer next time
Funny....I was thinking the exact same thing.
See what I mean. Case closed.
That's funny. When you're posting a comment regarding how 'some people' portray themselves, you might want to check the spelling.
Particularly the underlined words. (The proper usage would be "their"). :P
Now, back to the cars discussion......
Although, how do you think someone who can't find the humor in there (they're?....their?....) own mistake is portraying themselves? Particularly, someone doing all the preaching about how they are 'portraying' themselves?
Relax. Life's too short to get your whities all in a bunch over a relative lack of chatroom etiquette. Am I (occasionally
Guess what? I have opinions; some of them (but not all) are even based on fact (now WHO does that sound like?). Sometimes, I don't use the best tact in expressing those opinions. But don't get all wound up in worrying about how the message is relayed when you should be considering the meat of the message itself.
And now, back to the topic at hand - here's a nice writeup on the Speed3 in 'Winding Road' Magazine (free download here:)
http://www.windingroad.com/download/
The Speed3 article starts on page 52. Enjoy (or not if you're (your? yore?) a GTI and/or Civic Si fan.....)
LOL!!!! I almost fell out of my chair!!
Your girlfriend sounds pretty smart - I'd keep that one ;-)
When is BMW getting on board with a DSG?
This isn't the right forum so I'll be super brief:
The 330i feels wide, heavy and not very responsive. The increase of mass matched to the heavy/poor performing runflat tires and isolated cabin makes the 330i feel like a blvd cruiser, not a canyon carver. I'd hold onto the e30, man. Great car. If BMW built a car that size, I'd be all over it. Small, RWD, sedan, inline 6, manual. Yummy.
The girlfriend is moving in to my house and unless things go very wrong, she'll be around for the duration. So yeah, she's a keeper.
DSG should be available on everything. VW's implementation of that tranny is a true marvel.
Background (most forum readers know, but maybe not all)
C/D has some very sharp drivers to do its road tests who can wring out the last tenth in a 1/4 mile and last fraction of a g on launch. Their 0-60 test is a race launch with *fast* shifts - no mercy on the drivetrain. It includes bringing the revs up to an optimum speed before launch (how often can or would you do that in real driving?) and is a much harder run than most people will or can drive their own transportation. Thus they've provided the 5-60 mph test which indicates the response you'll get in normal driving. That 5.3 Mazda run showed you'll need more traction or some tuning to equal it in actual use. C/D hinted - all that rubber from practice passes gave them more grip for that fast run. Clearly the 3 has power; the trick will be getting it to the road without wheelspin or burning the clutch. I'll bet Mazda realized that the average buyer would be better off with the wheelspin tamed, and they'd have fewer blown transaxles under warranty, thus the torque reduction in lower gears. AWD would be a nice option for the hardcore crowd - us!
when you had your 3 series did you notice the throttle lag? I wonder how the MS3 throttle lag is. Just because car magazines don't mention it doesn't mean it's not there. they never mention any DBW throttle lag.
http://www.evo.co.uk/news/evonews/203046/volkswagen_iroc_concept.html
The new Civic hatch, w/ strut front & no double-wishbone rear, looks like a good old Scirocco/Corrado:
http://www.evo.co.uk/news/evonews/202445/honda_civic_typer_latest.html
http://www.evo.co.uk/news/evonews/202995/honda_civic_typer.html
How is Honda the world class leader?
Their performance is trumped by the Mazda, handling is similar. Lack of features often requested by potential buyers, like Xenon lights, leather, tire pressure monitoring system, cannot be found in the Honda.
Could you be talking about design? Well, the Civic's exterior has decent styling, the interior has drawn just as much criticism as it has praise. That's not what you call "world class"
If you suggest they are a "world class leader" then I assume you are referring to engine technology, not the total vehicle. Well, Honda's can get wonderful horsepower out of little engines, but they lack torque. Honda is going to be left behind if they fail to keep up with other manufacturers who turbo charge, and offer more performance in a relatively similar price range.
The Civic Si is a decent performer for the price, but, it's better off competing against "tuned" Civic's or previous generation GTI's.
Mazda on the other hand sacrificed a big chunk of that light-footed grace that their sports cars (such as the RX-8 and the MX-5) are known for. Mazda's best performance cars have always been light little darty cars that, while maybe not having the biggest engines, have been able to turn on a dime. I think a large part of enthusiasts' love for Mazda's stems from this.
Now, with the Mazdaspeed3, we've lost some of that. It's heavier, it's FWD, and it's not a sleek coupe. This is not to say it's not a fantastic car (it truly is), just that it's now aiming at a different crowd. Instead of tuners, canyon carvers, and track racers, it's targeted more at fathers who need to drop the kids off and get groceries, but still want to feel the thrust of a turbo kicking them in the back. They've done it, most definitely, but the car has become slightly numb almost, because of it's practicality. It's more useable, sure, and it's fast, boy is it fast, but personally (and this is just an opinion) I think that they've slightly disconnected the driver from the machine.
I still want one, but if Honda ever develops a turbo kit for the Civic Si, then we'll see the true differentiation between enthusiasts who love the feeling of driving a fun car, and the grocery-getters...
Despite being a rivalry which will be fought at dealerships, this test climaxed first at the track where the Mazda 3 simply stomped the Civic in any test that involved moving. All the instrumented tests fell heavily in favor of the sharper, stiffer, more powerful Mazda.
Mazda3 vs. Civic Comparo
You know, I was with you when you were talking about weight....but you lost me there. How does practicality lead to numbness?
BTW - agree on the Cooper S. My cousin bought a Cooper S for his everyday ride and found it to be more entertaining than his wife's C5 Corvette. So yes, you can't always judge 'fun' by the numbers.
"...personally (and this is just an opinion) I think that they've slightly disconnected the driver from the machine."
Perhaps so. Perhaps not. But I think I'll withhold final judgement until I actually DRIVE the car. Which begs the question: without driving the car, on what do you base your opinion that the Speed3 is anymore 'disconnected' than the regular Mazda3?
And I dissagree with Edmunds. Your point?
You could not be more wrong. This car was developed to take on the GTI, and other's like it (Civic Si). The Mazdaspeed6 was devoloped to take on the over 30 crowd. Not the Mazdaspeed3.
It's more useable, sure, and it's fast, boy is it fast, but personally (and this is just an opinion) I think that they've slightly disconnected the driver from the machine.
Every author who has actually DRIVEN the car says the complete opposite. I think you should develop your opinion AFTER you DRIVE one.
And yet the performance numbers show the Mazdaspeed3 is neck and neck with the Si for slalom and skidpad numbers. Now i realize you've never tracked a car so the concepts of entry and exit speed are very foreign. But anyone with track or racing experience will tell you if you've got twice the torque as the competition and and the same corner ability, that means you're going to hit the end of straight aways with a higher termina velocity and leave said corners accelerating far faster.
When I tracked my 330i ZHP I could devour many drivers of M3s on the corners because they simply didn't know how to take corners. Unfortunately, on the straights they had a 100 hp advantage and over 40 more ft-lbs of torque. I could pass them all day long in the twisties but in corners those guys at buttonwillow could snap off well over 105 mph on the long straight in front of the pits. Hitting over 90 mph on that straight was possible for me but that meant near perfect corner exiting. The guys I JUST passed would blow by me again because their engines offered so much more power.
Wait until you see a run-off among these cars. If they track them the Mazdaspeed3 will trounce the Si simply because the Honda's got a severe power-to-weight deficiency and even worse torque deficit. Double the torque and the same cornering ability = Si left in the dust.
You have nothing to add so you attack me. Same something of substance.
Blue at least backs up his claims with either real world experience or facts. You, on the other hand, are simply a honda cheerleader.
Let's breakdown your previous post:
Mazda has always made a good car, just not as good as Honda or Toyota
This is an offtopic point that happens to not be true. For example, the regular Mazda3 is rated better than the current Civic and Corolla by many magazines and avg consumers. Obviously, there are those who will choose the Civic, although almost none who will choose the Toyota. Even if this statement were true, how does it apply to a discussion about a new car. This statement really shows your unabashed bias.
this is not a performance car, it is a hatchback with a turbo
This really depends on what a performance car is defined as. A hatchback with a turbo may very well be considered a performance. You dont even bother to explain why you feel a hatchback with a turbo is not a performance car.
Sure, in a straight line it is fast, but in the corners a true performance car like the SI will beat it.
This is where I really busted out laughing. Firstly, everyone who as driven a speed3 (largely magazine publications) has said that the speed3 performs either on par or bests the SI "in the corners". This is when they are ignoring the torque/power advantages of the speed3. Second, you call the SI a true peformance car. What makes the SI a true performance car as opposed to the speed3? The SI doesnt distinguish itself in handling, not by any measure of performance (braking, slalom, acceleration, skipad?), not by most subjective impressions of fun.
Frankly, I would say neither of these cars are true performance cars. I would say a true performance car would have to at least be a purpose built rwd car with a healthy power/weight ratio. Between the speed3 and SI, I would say the speed3 comes closest to approaching a performance car. Obviously, this is all based on what I've read as nobody except journalists and Mazda employees have really driven the speed3 yet.
Advantages of the Si:
Honda makes the best shifters, and the one in the Si is no exception. The best Mazda shifters are probably in the Miata and Rx8, and those are always called Honda-like. The shifter in the speed3 has been called vague.
The Si is a more balanced car. Honda doesnt put too much torque into the fwd Si, instead putting emphasis on the whole package. Mazda may have eliminated most of the torque steer in the speed3, but not all of it (impossible to do). The Si is a great blend of decent performance, good handling for a reasonable price (Actually, Mazda is often noted for this attribute, notably in the Miata/mx-5. Did they abandon that philosophy in the speed3?)
The Si probably has a better steering feel, although that may be subjective. The Si also probably gets better fuel economy.
These are all great reasons to choose an Si over the speed3.