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Mazdaspeed3 vs. VW V GTI vs. Civic Si
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License plate says Beautiful British Columbia...last week it was still 77F up here. Not anymore though...
Anyway, no hard feelings, just drive on and enjoy the wheels you got under you. :shades:
I sat in a red MS3 here in Seattle on wednesday, and there is a lot of orange in the red. It's a fire-engine red, not dark at all, no blue in it. No heated seats after all, but the bolstering is excellent. Wanted to drive it but it was pre-sold.
p.s. Beware of green hornets, road hogs and other pesky nuisances getting in the way of a great drive.
Gotta say, I remain disappointed that this car was going to have heated seats and now doesn't. Also, after spending some seat time in the GTI, I find the MS3's light grey headliner a little pedestrian, and wish they'd gone with black ala VW. I believe the MS3 will be a special car, it just didn't feel that way sitting in it. The leather bolsters were sweet but otherwise it feels like a standard 3. Guess I gotta drive it. Also, red is its worst color, it's not a rich red. Even the Mazda guys were saying as such.
I am still up in the air. The GTI will have lowered suspension and upgraded seats by Feb, but the MS3 still pulls my reliability leash.
Word is that there is very little headroom in the stock turbo, but perhaps the turbo can be modified internally (so that it retains it's stock appearance). I'm also thinking there may be a few ft/lbs in the intake. Beyond that it gets expensive - I'd guess moving the intercooler up front and a larger exhaust would be required past 325hp - if one can even get that far.
Well, with a darker headliner, the car takes on more of a "tomb" feel to it, especially with black upholstry. With lighter gray, it is lighter and airier feeling (I'd imagine).
I don't like the red either, but then again, I'm a fan of the Alabama CRIMSON Tide, so I'm biased towards a darker red (a la my 1996 Accord LX in Bordeaux Red, which basically looks the color of red wine).
I do not see why these mods will be any different for the Mazdaspeed3, and should make this car capable of breaking 13 second quarter mile without messing with the internals or messing with the computer systems or turbo.
Currently, CP-E makes the most efficient performance mods for the Mazdaspeed6, with this being the same engine, look for these parts to be available on the Mazdaspeed3.
Actually, C&D listed the curb weight of the GTO they tested (infamous GTO vs Mustang test) at less than 3800 lbs.
Of course, the GTO is rated at 400hp and 400ftlbs for a power/weight ratio of 9.5 lbs/hp.
And a modded Speed6 with (fer instance....320hp) at 3600 lbs would have a power/weight ratio of over 11 lbs/hp. So, even modded, a Speed6 would be at a deficit. Yeah, the AWD will help, but I think low 13's is still a pretty decent time, even for a modded Speed6.
Thanks.
Yeah, to each their own - go sit in a GTI for comparison. Black seems richer, sportier and less distracting to me. Mini started offering a dark headliner too. But that's why there's crunchy and smooth Peanut Butter...
Enjoy!
What are they selling for? Web chatter is everything from full MSRP to $300 over invoice.
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You are forgetting that the STi is 300lbs lighter, 270hp-280ft lbs Vs. 293hp-290ft lbs (new SAE HP ratings) You can see why a "dead stock" STi does low 13's, some have broken 13 stock.
www.CP-E.com. I have spoken with the owners, they are very knowledgeable and their products are proven performers for all those wondering about moding your Mazdaspeed3 or Mazdaspeed6.
You hit it. Who cares if x car beats y on a dragstrip? It's everything if I'm a drag racer, and a footnote if I'm not. We can take forum opinions as hints on which cars to check out and how the mfr treats customers after the sale. Maybe the SP3 will be the most fun of anything you test, maybe not. The only way to know what which wheels to to buy for YOU is... drive them.
Wish I could have 2 cars, with the S2000 as the 2nd.
And the incoming R32 or R36, which ever they decide to bring over here, will be Haldex AWD as well.
I happen to agree the the R32 is a close comparo to the Mazdaspeed3. Mazdaspeed3 is quicker, but, the R32 has AWD. I'm not totally familiar with the R32, but, I know the MS3 is great in the corners as well as a straight line.
If the R36 does make it to the U.S shore, it should beat the Mazdaspeed3
Apparently the r32 was an amazing handler just not as ultra precise and it was a bit slower, but it had a refinement to it(when compared with its harsher japanese rivals)that the evo and sti could not match, there fore making it a better all around car. Since everyone seems to be comparing the ms3 to the regular wrx and gti, i think its safe to say that the r32 has nothing to worry about? :confuse:
The MS3 also falls short to the STi and EVO, by quite a bit in terms of sheer power. The R32 falls way short as well.
Yes, the R32 has a more forgiving ride the the STi/EVO, and a higher build quality on the interior, but no where the power/performance.
Actually, in a straight line, the R32 is slower then the MS3 in 0-60(6.4) and 1/4 mile(14.5). Those numbers are also WAY slower compared to the STi/EVO.
The current R32 almost falls in no mans land. No real head to head competition. The MS3 is faster, nut, no AWD. AWD competition blows it away, STi/EVO. Really, if you think about it, where does the R32 belong??
The previous generation R32 was priced around $30K and has AWD. Not really the same market that the MS3, Si and GTI are targeting(sub $25K). It was abundantly clear with higher HP and AWD, and thousands more in price that VW did not want the R32 to compete against it's own GTI. Rather, VW placed this car in price, performance and drive train more similar to the STi and EVO. See my correlation? If you were not looking for just performance, but, wanted built quality and more of an every day ride and more of a "grown up feel", then I suppose the R32 would be for you. Personally, I think when you approach the $30K range, there are much better vehicles out there that provide similar performance, if not better, and better built quality. That is why I made the statement of "no mans land". Just my personal opinion.
The R32 not a bad vehicle, by any means in terms of performance and over all feel, but, at that price tag, I do think it is a bit lacking. You can get the "grown up" feel in the Mazdaspeed6 with more power, same AWD system and good build quality for less.
When buying or shopping vehicles it is all about what each individual is looking for. As you said "different strokes for different folks"
The only thing in common between VW R32(6 cylinder) and Mazdaspeed 6(4 cylinder with turbo) is the AWD. These are not comparable cars and nobody that knows about cars would cross shop them. While they come close in original pricing(msrp) the REAL selling price is about 10000 difference. There is a reason for which a brand new Mazdaspeed 6 cannot sell for 22000(6-7000 discount)and a used r32(previous generation) sells for more than 30000 . Hope you will find it some day because it is so obvious for everybody else.
It is?
And what, pray tell, makes a used R32 worth $10k more than a new Speed6?
VW mystique?
"Everybody" is quite a lot of people, I suppose you have evidence that the millions of drivers out there all would buy a $30,000 Golf over a Mazdaspeed6?
These are not comparable cars and nobody that knows about cars would cross shop them.
Actually, there are quite a bit of people that do, I see them on a daily. Just because you would not cross them, does not mean others wont?
Have you ever driven an R32? I have. Very lacking in comparison to what you can get for the same money. That was my argument, and you happen to say nothing to negate my conclusion. Really, $30,000 for a Golf that is outperformed by plenty, including the Mazdaspeed6.
You forget that the Mazdaspeed6 is marketed (do you know what that means??) to people cross shopping BMW, Audi, Infiniti. If there was a blunder that was made, it was marketing the vehicle, hence the rebates currently on the vehicle. That is apparent to everyone who knows about the vehicle. Plus, no automatic transmission, which people this car is marketed to, look for.
The R32 is marketed to the younger buyer,who typically buy's on impulse and "got to have" factor, who looks at the STi and EVO. So, VW got younger people sucked in to paying $30,000 for a vehicle that can't hold a candle to the aforementioned STi/EVO. Mazda has marketed the Mazdaspeed3 a similar group, and gives you better performance then the R32, less the AWD, for under $25,000. Currently, it is very tough to get a Mazdaspeed3.
The more mature buyer that the Mazdaspeed6 is targeted to is more savvy, and more reluctant to purchase, or spend $30,000 with out doing major homework, and very seldom do they buy on impulse.
A few business classes, along with marketing knowledge would have painted that picture for you.
Did you point this out to the Mazda execs that screwed up the Mazdaspeed6 so royally too?
Miscues Mazda could have avoided but decided enthusiasts wouldn't notice:
An AWD system that's FWD bias.
Gearing spaced so tightly the car requires 3 shifts to hit 60.
Complete lack of a cruising gear - thus wretched freeway mileage.
Adding 400 lbs to an already portly car.
Then again, these are the same folks who continue to pump out a great handling, though woefully underpowered RX-8.
Also, if you need 3 shifts to 60 but only 2 to 55, does it make it less of a performance car? It only affects 0-60 metric.
The Mazdaspeed6 was meant to compete with the G35, # series, IS, etc. It was supposed to be something it isn't: a performance sedan. Instead it languishes on lots because so many mistakes were made with the implementation of the car. If you think a 30k car selling for 23-24k isn't a black eye for Mazda, you're probably one of those special GM-ish/Ford-like execs who think halo car should translate to absolute failure (ie the GTO, speed6).
Admittedly the Mazdaspeed3 is closer to hitting its market but even that car has some problems.
The RX8 is one more example of Mazda blowing what could have been great. Decent looking car with supreme handling and zero power. They missed that last element which would help push sales.
While I think some of your criticims of the MazdaSpeed 6 are valid, I think your criticism of the RX-8 is simply personal bias. You obviously like a car with a certain amount of low-end grunt. You may drive a car with a manual transmission, but clearly you don't like shifting gears very much. Both the RX-8 and the MX-5 are cars that remind us of the valus of light weight and excellent balance. Neither are all that fast in a straight line, but both are incredibly fun to drive.
I don't care if a car goes 150 MPH because I will never drive it that fast. I care that a car puts a smile on my face every time I get behind the wheel. Mazdas do an excellent job of that, at a reasonable price with good quality and reliability.
I think some of your criticisms of the MazdaSpeed 6 are valid, but rather than complaining about what you wish the car was, let's talk about what it is instead. And let's talk about what you can buy for comparable dollars, instead of complaining that it isn't as good as cars that cost many thou$and$ more.
The MazdaSpeed 6 was never meant to compete directly with a BMW or Audi or even an Infiniti. It was meant to deliver a much higher level of performance in the mid-sized sedan category at a still reasonable price. That basic mission was accomplished. The car has faults - many of which you have pointed out. The biggest fault the car has - sadly - is the lack of an automatic transmission. Despite all the die-hard manual drivers on this board and others, most folks don't want to have to shift gears.
If this thing had been made available with a nice 6-speed automatic, it probably would have sold in higher volumes at a higher price-point. Sad, but true.
That said, I'd take the Civic Si, GTI and Mazdaspeed3 over the RX-8 or lousy Mazdaspeed6 in a heartbeat. As a ridiculously biased Mazda fan, even I realize those two cars are worthless due to decisions by bean-counting, clownish executives.
The Mazdaspeed3 is a great attempt. Should Mazda ever make that awesome RWD coupe they showed off, the Kabura (even with the Miata's current engine, I will gladly step up and buy one. That assumes they gear it like the Miata, of course. Or gear it better.
As for your ridiculous statements about manuals and shifting: I live in 3rd and 4th gear in my 330i. Sixth is for cruising, road trips, etc - 100+ mph and 28 mpg.
Though "woefully" underpowered as you call it, still does 0-60 in 6 or less, and out handles most every car in it's class, and has earned the top spot in Car and Drivers coveted "Top Ten"
Anyway's, back to the topic at hand....
It's all subjective. But to me, subjectively, the GTI and Mazdaspeed3 are far better cars. Smaller, lighter, more responsive...
Does smaller and lighter make a car better? Better for who?
The whole idea of the speed6 was to stretch the brand a little beyond the traditional mazda customer. Mazda's avg buyer is the youngest in the entire auto industry. (this is huge for mazda, every carmaker wants this demographic) This speed didn't thrill the young crowd of traditional mazda buyers...Most of our buyers never considered Mazda before the speed6.
The 3speed is aimed directly at Mazda's core buyer and the demands shows it nailed the target dead on.
Yahtzee!
Actually, Blueguy is a Mazda fan. I see him a bit in other Mazda forums.
The evidence is right in front of you just look at all the Mazdaspeed 6 sitting in the lot.
"you forget that Mazdaspeed is marketed to people cross shopping BMW, Audi"
That shows WHO really doesn't understand marketing and that's Mazda or you because I am not sure that Mazda really did market their car against luxury brands. Who in the right mind will cross shop BMW and Mazda?
VW R32 doesn't compete with STI and EVO more than a Mazdaspeed 6. In fact is Mazdaspeed 6 that has more similarities with this two ( poorly finished exterior and cheap looking interior). That GOLF(R32) looks like a luxury car by comparison and if 0 to 60 is not all you want from your car there is nothing that can match the amount of fun per dollar in the auto industry.
P.S. If this is what you learned in your business classes I think you should ask for a refund. Seriously.
How many luxury compact hatchbacks have you ever seen? Personally, I think neither of these cars LOOKS worthy of $30k. They may drive like it, but neither of them are stylistically marvelous.
In marketing terms, this is called "extending the brand". It takes years to change the perception, but it has to be started somewhere. I know at least several people who cross-shopped BMW/Saab with MZS6 caring less about brands cache. Besides, in this case no harm has been done to the core brand's image. Roll back the clock 10 years and people would have laughed at you if you mentioned luxury and VW, or BMW and VW in the same sentence.