Ford Mustang (2005) vs. 2005 Pontiac GTO

ClairesClaires Chicago areaMember Posts: 1,222
edited April 2014 in Ford
Compare and contrast these two competitors.

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  • graphicguygraphicguy Edmunds Poster EmeritusMember Posts: 13,599
    Rergardless of perceptions of what the GTO or Mustang is/isn't, the fact of the matter is, GM missed the mark with the GTO.

    While I thought it quite unfair, the front cover of the Business Week GM debacle issue had a GTO travelling over a cliff to show what ails GM.

    The bigger issues prevail for GM. That is, products like the SSR and the GTO have missed the mark (along with plenty of other models). Some will say it's a marketing issue. Some will say it's an issue with GM not knowing their customer. Some will say it's a styling issue. Some will say it's a pricing issue. It's probably all of the above. GM has to add legacy costs to all of their vehicles to cover their mind numbing labor costs. This doesn't translate to better value. It only adds to the cost. Personally, (and I'd have to think I'm the GTO's target market), I thought the styling was too derivative and that the performance should have been better than what 100 extra HP over the Mustang, should have been. While I've got my own beliefs why the GTO and the Mustang GT are so close in the performance categories, this has not been something that is lost on those who are in the market for a ~$30K performance car.

    Whether you believe the GTO is a luxury car or not (I don't), whether you believe the GTO is a performance car or not (I do), the fact remains that GM should have known from their lessons with the '04 GTO that something drastically had to be done to hit their sales figures. Clearly, they didn't do enough with just dropping an LS2 in it (which it seems is their perscription to boost sales for many models) and adding some hood scoops. GM had more pressing problems they needed to address to make the GTO what it should have been. They didn't address those.

    What's clear is that with the current state of the General puts the GTO (and probably all of Pontiac) at severe risk.

    Obviously, Ford (even with their own issues) got the product right with the Mustang.
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  • tripowergtotripowergto Member Posts: 83
    These cars truly don't compare as much as many may suggest.The GTO is a premium mid-size coupe that quite simply outclasses the Mustang in every regard except the very subjective issue of styling.
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    To even say it "quite simply outclasses the Mustang in every regard" is heavily subjective. Even with it's additional 100HP, it's acceleration edge is negligible. Everything else, performancewise, the Mustang meets or beats it in.
  • andyandy Member Posts: 21
    Price difference is not that much after incentives on the GTO. An 04 GTO is significantly cheaper than an 05 Mustang GT.

    Primary difference is GTO is more of a heavy, but refined sport, luxury beast w/ European flair and roadmanners (think poor mans bmw 6 series).

    Mustang is lighter but cruder american muscle car. Interior is much cheaper. Solid rear axle. But it's got that silly "gotta have it" factor.
  • graphicguygraphicguy Edmunds Poster EmeritusMember Posts: 13,599
    I have to say I do feel badly for those that have purchased the GTO for no other reason than Pontiac and GM has left them flopping in the breeze since the GTO will be, at most, a 3 year model run (maybe two years). GM certainly didn't style it correctly, and they certainly didn't market it correctly. All of that has to leave owners with an understandably bad taste.

    It's clear that GM tried to make the current GTO something it's not. If they indeed tried to make it as some sort of premium sports model to go up against the likes of BMW or Audi, the marketplace disagreed. If they were trying to market it as some sort of all out performance muscle machine, then they styled and priced it wrong as the customers have stayed away from it. The marketplace is always the final judge.

    It's also clear, at least from the posts I've seen in the Mustang thread, that there are some who have ill feelings for those of us who preferred the Mustang over the GTO. That's too bad, as I've always thought that a good healthy GM vs Ford rivalry would be good for both models. That is not to be, though.

    As much good as Lutz did for GM (thinking the Solstice, here) he did many things wrong. The GTO is one of those (along with the Buick LaCrosse, Chevrolet SSR and the Pontiac G6). He positioned the GTO wrongly. He tried to make it something that it wasn't. As much as he should have known what the GTO and its legacy was, he ignored it. Why he thought a derivative of the Grand Prix style (which was long in the tooth to begin with) would ignite sales, is beyond me. Why he thought that a mediocre platform for the GTO would pass mustard, is also beyond me (GTO is built on the widely dismissed Catera platform, which was also long in the tooth).

    Clearly, Ford got the formula right. They put a high performance machine into a stylish, great looking, very well built package (both inside and out), blessed it with great switchgear with great handling, shifting, braking and acceleration. Then they priced it right.

    Ford marketed it as a cross generation car (which it is). It's appeal is universal (just heard that they will be shipping the Mustang to Europe) across age groups, social classes and geographic boundaries.

    Ford was rewarded with universal praise from the media as well as wildly successful sales from the public. We, those of us who bought a Mustang, have been rewarded with a car that will probably go down as one of the great ones of at least this decade.

    For all intents and purposes, the '05 Mustangs in GT and convertible guises are just about sold out (most of them at MSRP or higher prices). Even the V6s are selling well. '06 models will be sold out, for at least the first several months of the '06 model year based on talking to others on othe Mustang WEB sites. My dealer is happy because he's sold every Mustang he can get his hands on. He's also frustrated that even though Ford upped production, that he sold out again with extra allotment.

    I've even seen used ones in my 'burg sell for MSRP.

    I don't know if GM is paying attention or not. Or, maybe they are in such financial and management turmoil, they just don't care.

    What is clear is the Mustang will be alone in the marketplace once the GTO goes away either this year or next. I doubt very seriously the Charger will be much competition since it's a 4-door, available only as an automatic trans. But, maybe it will replace the GTO in the market since it seems more GTO people actually like automatic trannys. Who knows........?
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  • brushbanditbrushbandit Member Posts: 33
    Graphic Guy, You're back!!!! In terms of Ill feelings you're tone has certainly changed since you last frequented this board. In terms of comparisons Car and Driver had the GTO winning most performance catagorys and the GTO would have won the comparison if not for the fact of some stupid "got to have' catagory that spotted the under performing Mustang a windfall of points. Why anyone would "got to have" the lesser performing of the 2 cars is a mystery to me. And cut me a break with the accolades that "Ford has done such a wonderful job on the Mustang", at least I can get Gas into my GTO. And please, don't feel sorry for me, I purchased my 04 GTO for 6K less than a comporably equipped GT. It performed as well or better than the GT stock. With the mods I'm doing using about half of my savings the only thing you will see in your manual transmisson GT is the taillights of my auto transmission GTO disappearing.
  • xkssxkss Member Posts: 722
    Sales of the GTO have improved since it came on the market.

    Of course the Mustang is selling well. It has two engines and two body styles.

    The bottom line is that the more rwd, V-8-powered coupes, the better. Even if they aren't American like the GTO.
  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    Graphic Guy, I'm glad you are happy with your Mustang, but it's far from perfect.... I have a 2005 GTO and I LOVE IT. I do NOT have a bad taste at all. I chose it over the Mustang and would do so every time. The Impala SS was only a 3yr car too, 1994 to 1996, I'm sure those owners don't have a bad taste. The fact of the matter is that the Mustang is a cheap $19k Pony car with a solid rear axle and unrefined/crude V6 engine and a interior with some low rent feel to it as per Consumer Reports. There are more to car then looks. Sales mean nothing to me. If you want to base on sales how good a car is, then The Accord and Camry are much better then your stang. They outsell it 2 to 1 or 3 to 1.

    Yes the GTO as you already know is sold in Austrailia and Europe already! As for a bad platform? The GTO platfrom is pretty decent and is a good seller in Austrailia. You do realize that your supposedly all new Stang is based on a 5 yr old 2000 Lincoln LS chassis?

    Yes the GTO beat the Stang in almost all performance tests as per Car and Driver, including braking, steering etc. I can't imagine anyone spending nearly $28k+ for a car with a solid rear axle these days, but to each their own. Yes the Interior in the GTO was rated as BETTER in both C&D and Consumer Reports then the Stangs.

    As for MSRP...I would NEVER pay MSRP for a used Stang. Smart people don't. the Mustang will depreciate, tell me 1 or 2 yrs from now? All cars depreciate today, no car is an investment unless it's an old antique etc. Try taking your stang back to the dealer and getting back what you paid or more, WON"T HAPPEN!

    By the way, the Automatic tranny GTO outperforms your manual shift Mustang, LOL! PRetty funny!

    You fail to mention that GM will only import 12k to 18k GTO's a year. Very limited production car to begin with for the USA. Which is good, you won't see GTO's a dime a dozen like the likes of the ACcord, Camry, Mustang.
  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    Did anyone read the May 2004 Motor Trend rated the $35,000 2004 GTO vs the $70,000 Mercedes Mercedes CLK55 AMG, the GTO did very well and held it's own. Motor Trend said the GTO provided 90% of the goodness for 50% of the price. Less can sometimes be more. I think that was pretty impressive for the GTO.

    As for pricing, I got the GTO for the same price as stang and got 100 more horsepower and independent suspension and not to mention better interor/seats
  • graphicguygraphicguy Edmunds Poster EmeritusMember Posts: 13,599
    brush....I never left. This thread has just started.

    Don't know what you mean about putting gas in my car???????? If you mean the rise in gas prices, yeah that sucks. But, I didn't buy a V8 powered car hoping to get Prius MPG. I am thankful that, at least, I'm getting around 18 MPG in the city and about 24 MPG on the highway (but not totally broken in yet) by using regular gas. I can live with that.

    I do think you got a whale of a deal on your '04 GTO. That's a hell of a bargain in my estimation. You done good. I'll assume that you paid somewhere around $22K for your GTO (that's $6K less than a comparably equipped Mustang GT MSRP)? But, that Mustang price is with side airbags, too. Drop another $400 off the Mustang's price to match "like for like" equipment levels of the GTO.

    MOD away. I didn't notice a perfromance advantage of the stock GTO over the stock Mustang GT, in either '04 or '05 iterations of the GTO. That said, I've never driven an automatic version of either the Mustang GT nor the GTO. Plus, I'm not modding the Mustang. I'll wait for the Shelby Mustang.

    I do feel badly how GM has left the GTO folks who forked over $31K+ for their cars hanging, with GM abandoning it in short order. That said, I could have bought an '04 GTO for right around $24K-$25K. That's for a new, last year's model GTO, though. I still took a pass for all the reasons I stated before. I paid $25.5K for the Mustang GT, all loaded up (but no automatic).

    Just yesterday, the Pontiac dealer called me to tell me of the $1,000 rebate. Could have bought an '05 GTO for right around $29.3 Still don't find it interesting. Nice dealer, but as I told him, the GTO is going away. I'd make a bet that by the time summer rolls around, the rebates will get deeper for no other reason than GM has left current owners holding the bag.

    Interesting guy, my dealer. I bought a GTP from him about 8 years ago. Great car, at the time. He's been having a hard time with the GTO. This is in OH, where there are a couple of GM plants and a couple of Ford plants (as well as a Honda plant). You'd think just the employee customer base alone would have snatched up the GTOs. He still has 3 '04s left. He's got about 6 '05s (he's got a blue on blue one that might be tasty if someone wants it). The '04s have been on his lot for at least 4 months, probably more. He has sold 1 '05. The rest have been sitting there for a couple of months. He's really caught between a rock and a hard place. GM has rebated the '04 into oblivion and they're still hanging around. The '05s aren't moving with the $1,000 rebate. Plus, the dealer HAD to take the GTOs to get his allotment of G6s (which he said is selling well). Tough position to be in. As we were talking, he's got high hopes for the V8 GP that's coming out next year, though. He's really worried about what's going to happen in the next couple of years, since he's a Pontiac/Buick/GMC dealer. The prospect of GM dropping Pontiac or Buick (maybe both) would put him out of business.....and he's a big dealer.

    Gunit....clearly, you and I are going to have to agree to disagree. You keep stating the same tired stuff. I'm not going to repeat myself. You're going to have to tuck your review stats into your glovebox and be happy with them. They aren't going to make the GTO any better for the C&D testers, or any other of the media that has overwhelmingly given kudos to the Mustang.
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  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    tayl0rd writes......Everything else, performancewise, the Mustang meets or beats it in.

    Not sure where you got that from but the fact is that the GTO according to Car and Driver beat the Mustang in just about all performance tests! C&D even said the GTO was more fun to drive then stang. Better steering, interior etc... I suggest you re-read that test data and article again.
  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    I did NOT fork over $31k+ for my 2005 GTO, Paid Much less then that! I got my GTO for same price as a loaded Stang. I got 100 extra horse, IRS and better interior/build quality. Also a cheaper insurance bill. A car that compares to Mercedes as per Motor Trend. To each their own. You keep making rather bold statements about feeling bad for GTO owners.... I feel great about my purchase. It seems that you need to keep bashing the GTO to make yourself feel better about your stang purchase. interesting. I believe the GTO is the better car, bu I am not going to bash the Mustang or it's owners like you do GTO owners or feeling bad for them. Geez. I can also revel in the fact that I own a car that I won't see at a renta car place or 20 of them in a parking lot either. More Exclusitivity. Yes agreed, Stang stand out better looks wise, but doesn't mean it looks better.

    This is my last comment on this. Enjoy your mustang.
  • lhesslhess Member Posts: 379
    My GM dealer had a black 6 spd GTO. I stopped in to take a look. I can't say the car was good or bad. Yes, the HP is exciting, it's not exactly ugly, but it was so BORING! Then, the mustang comes out and the exterior is great - I liked the somewhat retro look and, of course, MUSTANG says it all. I nearly vomited when I looked at the interior. There is no way i could have driven that car and looked at that interior everyday. I bought an RX8!!
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    tayl0rd writes......Everything else, performancewise, the Mustang meets or beats it in.

    Not sure where you got that from but the fact is that the GTO according to Car and Driver beat the Mustang in just about all performance tests!

    Isn't that saying the same thing??

    Chill out, guy. Go do some smokey, axle hopping burnouts in your hi tech IRS sprung, pushrod engine equipped GTO and relax.

    Yes, there will be tons of Mustangs on the road. But it is still recognizable and distinguishable from other run-of-the-mill sedans on the road, unlike the GTO. Also unlike the GTO (and F-bodies), the Mustang will be around for many years to come. And I wouldn't put too much stock in the fact that the GTO was compared to the Mercedes. No one has ever praised Mercedes for great performance in other than a straight line. Keep in mind that in C&D's comparison that they noted the GTO was slow to respond to steering input and the Mustang responded much quicker. That alone would tell you that if you've gotten accustomed to driving a lumbering car through some cones and then follow it up with a more nimble car, you're more than likely going to oversteer the nimble car and spin it out since you've gotten used to the slower responding car. (boy, that was a long sentence!)

    It's great that you got THOUSANDS off your purchase. But that means you're going to lose THOUSANDS more in resale. In the past, Mustangs lost as much as a third or more of their value as soon as you signed the papers. This one is still fetching MSRP+ used! That tells you something.
  • graphicguygraphicguy Edmunds Poster EmeritusMember Posts: 13,599 you know, I had an RX8 until it lost a battle being rear ended by a pick-up.

    Having owned both the RX8 and the Mustang GT, I liked both interiors....for different reasons, but both are beautiful. You really should see if you can test drive a Mustang GT if you can find one. It would be an eye-opening experience. Both the RX8 and the Mustang are great performance cars. But, as soon as you twist the key in the Mustang, the differences will be quite evident.....especially as you press the "go peddle". I like both cars, but for very different reasons.

    gunit....yeah, do take a break. As tal0rd states, chill a little. You're getting way too worked up.

    Just curious about your numbers, though....GMO pricing on an '05 GTO is ~$30.3K. I'll assume you bought before the recent $1,000 rebate since it's new. Invoice is about $31.9K. Edmunds TMV is about $32.8K.

    So, if you are a GM employee (or family member), you paid $30K+. If not, and you worked the dealer real hard, you paid somewhere in the neighborhood of $32K +.

    A loaded Mustang GT without side airbags (since the GTO doesn't offer them), if you could get one, would run MSRP at around $27.5K.

    That's still somewhere about $2,800 (if you or a close family member works for GM) to $4,500 more for a GTO. That's not close in my book.

    I know, here it comes.....

    GTO has 100 more HP (which makes no significant difference in the performance over a Mustang GT).

    Still, enjoy what you bought. I'm enjoying mine (got lucky and bought my loaded Mustang GT for $25.5K with Ford's X plan).
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  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    from the C&D article that is being used so freely about the GTO:

    "Big surprise, right? The Goat finishes second; it's a goat after all, and that's what goats do. Second place might be the expected finish for what cynics would call the Blunder from Down Under..."

    " correct the much-maligned inadequacies of the Pontiac's lozenge-like exterior."

    "...but the GTO's exterior still looks too much like a bloated Cavalier."

    "...but the six-speed manual transmission is about as fun to use as that Soloflex collecting dust in your basement. Throws are long, rubbery, and high effort..."

    "Worse yet were the foot pedals."

    "If only it looked as stunning as the new Mustang, we might have forgiven the mislaid pedals, the stubborn shifter, and even the roughly $5000 difference in price. Unfortunately for Pontiac, our comparo jury wasn't blind."

    For the Mustang:

    "Unlike the GTO, the Mustang has its pedals set in the right places..."

    "When the going gets fast, the Mustang is obedient and gains your trust rapidly."

    "In objective handling tests, the Mustang beat out the GTO."

    " the light and fast steering that is too eager to turn in."

    "...the fit and finish is beyond anything previously seen in a Mustang, and the driving position, despite the lack of a telescopic wheel, will come as a revelation."

    "...we're suckers for a great body, and the Mustang looks a lot better than the GTO."

    "...the Mustang wins because when you take it in, as a total package, the Ford makes better sense."

    "It makes the most of what it has, doesn't suffer from what it doesn't have..."

    I stand corrected about the GTO's slow steering. That must've been in another mag/article.
  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    Here are the facts on the Mustang & GTO steering as per Car and Driver, C&D liked GTO's steering better.. here it goes, DIRECT from the source.....

    C&D on Mustangs steering......Lows: Light and too-fast steering, giant steering wheel, occasional side-step from the rear axle. On the road, the Mustang understeered more than the GTO. The problem lies in the light and fast steering that is too eager to turn in. Making the task more difficult is the lack of feedback coming through the giant steering wheel. Not much information as to what the front tires are experiencing comes through.

    C&D on GTO's steering.....Steering is far more communicative than the system in the Mustang; the effort increases as cornering loads increase. Turn the wheel off-center, and the GTO dives into the corner as predictably and voraciously as a goat at an all-you-can-eat tin-can buffet. A bit of body roll accompanies maneuvers near the 0.88-g threshold, but understeer almost never rears its head.
  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    I'm cool......I owned a 2002 supercharged GTP coupe which was modified to about 300hp+ Boy was that an easy backseat for a coupe to get into, one of the easist I ever had. Huge 16 cu ft trunk too, LOL! The interior on the GTP was GARBAGE! Otherwise I liked the car. As soon as you touched gas it went, 300+ torque after mods. RX8 is a nice car but NO torque, 160 ft lbs? Have to constantly rev it high to get power, I like cars with torque.

    As for GTO 100 extra horse, you are right 0-60 and 1/4 mile are not much faster then Stang it is also 250 lbs heavier then Mustang too! But the 100 extra horse comes in handy on the TOP END! 0-130mph is a FULL 6 seconds faster then Mustang. Past 100mph, the GTO is significantly faster. It will do almost 180mph with governor disabled stock where as Mustang can ONLY do 147mph drag limited. That is where 100 extra hp comes into play! 99% people will never need that or do that. It's there if you need it, LOL! I believe the CD on GTO is signifigantly better.. .30 vs .34 mustang

    As for pricing...I got a $1k dealer loyallty rebate, $1k via internet price match and $1k GM rebate I bought right on April 1st.. just made it in and my GM employee discount. I paid UNDER $30k for my new 2005. I also got $13k for my GTP trade in which was paid in full. So in reality after trade in, the car was $17k in change. The dealer was not happy telling me they were losing money on selling the car to me, too bad!!
  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    tayl0rd I didn't buy the manual shift GTO, today's automatics are just as good. In fact on the GTO the automatic is faster 0-60 and 1/4 mile then 6spd manual GTO, LOL! This is in GM/Pontiacs own testing. 4spd unit from the Vette is a proven tranny where as the 5spd in the Mustang is all new. That 5spd will cost much more to rebuild too.

    Highs: 400 horsepower, M3-grade acceleration, refined interior, playful chassis.

    The bottom line is that the GTO is giving you the same drivetrain in the $45k+ Vette or $50k+ CTS-V for only $30k... Same can't be said for the Mustang.

    Enjoy what you bought.
  • graphicguygraphicguy Edmunds Poster EmeritusMember Posts: 13,599
    cool beans.....we're both GTP fans!!!!! IMHO, one of the best v6 engines on the market. Wish the General would have continued development on it.

    Like you, I didn't pay near MSRP for my Mustang either. I got X plan pricing when I ordered it last winter (brother-in-law works for GM....sister works for Ford....makes for interesting holiday gatherings). I wouldn't even attempt to try to duplicate X plan deal on a Mustang GT that deal today.
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  • sensaisensai Member Posts: 129
    graphicguy, you are smoking something if you think the 05 GTO does not have a performance difference over the 05 Mustang. The few 05 GTOs that have been out to the track so far have run 12.8s at 108mph on not broken in engines (as many people know, the LSx engines don't reach full performance for a few thousand miles). The best 05 Mustang time I have seen is 13.5 at 103mph. If you think that is close, you need to get out to a track and see how big of a difference that really is.

    This whole comparison is stupid anyways. For people like me, the Mustang is not an option because it cannot seat more than 2 people. Yes it is a pain to get into the back of a GTO, but it is very comfortable once back there. Hence why one is considered a pony car and the other more of a performance tourer.
  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    Well the general did upgrade the SC3800 into series 3 with 20 more hp in 2004. Now they are putting the 303hp 5.3L V8 in the Grand Prix/Impala/Monte, which will now be the supercharged 3800 replacement. Too bad they are still keeping it as front wheel drive. Should be interesting.

    Good deal on the Mustang. I have this thing about NOT paying MSRP on a car. Refuse too. All cars depreciate, might as well get off as much as you can.

    Remember when Honda was gettin MSRP+ for the Odyssey minivan back in 2002-2003? Thos have already depreciated, price out a used 2002 or 2003 Oddy and you will see. Maybe not as bad as domesitcs but still dropped. I think Honda is still getting close to MSRP. Crazy!
  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    I have to agree with you on the backseat of GTO, that is a main reason for me buying the GTO, backseat is more comfortable-roomie. My 2 yr old son's britax car seat fits much easier/better back there then the Mustang. GTO is much more suited to have adults back there.

    Pont.GTO backseat is 37 inches of legroom
    Mustang backseat is only 30.3 inches of rear legroom, Almost 7 inch dif !!

    GTO was a pain to get car seat through and in the back. Mustang was nearly impossible. Rear facing infant seat is almost out of question in Mustang, where as you can do it in GTO.
  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    Have you ever owned or driven a Mercedes? I have. Sorry, but a lot more refined/better then your Stang wil ever be. Mercedes offer more then just straightline performance, if you have ever owned one. GTO comes close to emulating the Mercedes or BMW experience for HALF the price. Not the same, but much closer then the stang. Read the Motor Trend article and decide for yourself. GTO is the poor mans BMW 6 series, LOL! Several others have said that too.

    Also note that Consumer Reports also TESTED the GTO against Audi, Caddy CTS-V and BMW, impressive too. All 3 of those other cars were $15k more+ I think GTO did very well with them. yes the GTO lost, but it was also $15k less cheaper too. It held it's own. CR never tested the stang vs GTO.

    They are each good cars in their own rights.. enjoy.
  • graphicguygraphicguy Edmunds Poster EmeritusMember Posts: 13,599
    I knew the GP was going to have a multi-displacement V8. I didn't realize it was going to be FWD, though. That should be interesting when you press the gas.

    For years, we've been conditioned to expect rebates, financing deals, dealer incentives. Walking into a showroom and getting sticker shock was offset by the screaming cash back ads. For the most part, Honda has stayed away from that by pricing thier cars more realistically. Toyota does rebate, but not as much as the American brands. It's hard to understand where the value is in a G6, for example, when you see the MSRP of $22K+ when you can go to the Toyota store and get a Camry LE for a little over $19K equipped similarly. So, GM relies on rebates to equalize prices.

    Just in the last few years, I've seen the maunfacturer's become more realistic in their MSRP pricing. Look at the aforementioned Odysey, Mini-Cooper, Scion, etc. and you'll see a trend towards MSRP being the price. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't (Saturn's a good example). It's all predicated on getting good value for the MSRP. I think the Mustang qualifies as offering exceptional performance/spots car value for the MSRP price. Apparently, most GT buyers feel the same way.

    Hell, for the $14K + for one of those Scion xBs, loaded up, I may even be a customer to get one as a 2nd car.

    But, I don't doubt that the manufacturer's or the dealers would deny that rebates, incentives, etc. isn't the way to go to get people into the showroom. Product is the way to do it, however.

    Admittedly for me, back seat isn't an issue, in the GTO or the Mustang. I'm usually in the car alone. At most, I'll have one passenger, for a total of 2 in the car. Getting in the back seat of any 2-door coupe is an excesise in contortionism (with the exception of the suicide doors of the RX8 coupe). To me, trunk room is more important. The Mustang's is much bigger than the GTO's.

    My bracket racing days are over. I don't plan on tracking my Mustang GT. So, I'll qualify my statement to say that on the street, where 95% of owners will ever go, there are no significant performance differences between the GTO and the Mustang GT. I have been to the track as a spectator, though. I'm seeing low 13s for '05 GTOs, mid-high 13s for '04 GTOs and mid 13s for the '05 Mustang GT. Again, not a huge difference.
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  • sensaisensai Member Posts: 129
    My bracket racing days are over. I don't plan on tracking my Mustang GT. So, I'll qualify my statement to say that on the street, where 95% of owners will ever go, there are no significant performance differences between the GTO and the Mustang GT. I have been to the track as a spectator, though. I'm seeing low 13s for '05 GTOs, mid-high 13s for '04 GTOs and mid 13s for the '05 Mustang GT. Again, not a huge difference.
    And again, somehow you are trivilizing the huge difference in acceleration between the GTO and Mustang. For starters, you are posting the best times for a Mustang (mid 13s) where most people are running high 13s/low 14s. The worst times for 04 GTOs is high 13s, most people get into the mid 13s, and quite a few have hit low 13s. The 05 GTO starts in the low 13s and goes down from there. You are also leaving out trap speeds, which seem to range 100-103 for the GT, 103-105 for the 04 GTO, 107-109 for the 05 GTO. Meaning, on the street, the 04 GTO is going to pull on the GT every time, and the 05 will absolutely whomp it.
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    Yes, I have driven Mercedes cars, including an E55 AMG (sweet!). I have not, nor will I ever, compare Mustang refinement to a Mercedes. The Mustang was not designed to be a softy. It was designed as a somewhat practical sports car. Compared to previous generation Mustangs, the '05 is very much refined. But it's not a Mercedes, and it doesn't want/pretend to be. It knows where it fits in the market place.

    sensai, I have seen as low as a 12.9 in the quarter for a stock '05 Mustang GT with some miles on it. Granted, it may have been quite an abusive launch, but it made it nonetheless. Not all that much different from the GTO's best 12.8. Besides, for now, owners of the new Mustang are enjoying the stares and thumbs up from folks more than taking them to the track.
  • graphicguygraphicguy Edmunds Poster EmeritusMember Posts: 13,599
    I disagree strongly with you. I've driven the '04 GTO, the '05 GTO and own the '05 Mustang GT. Up until a couple of years ago, I was very active in bracket racing for many years. Although not running the Mustang, I am still very active at Mid-OHIO. I'm not seeing the numbers you're talking about. Matter of fact, from what I know, the '04 GTO, bone stock, will lose to a Mustang GT, bone stock.

    I may change my mind about hitting the track if you want to meet up and test your 1/4 skills against mine.....say somewhere around Columbus.

    An '05 GTO vs an '05 Mustang GT, both stock, will be a driver's race. A GTO will probably pull on a Mustang GT above about 130 MPH, but most won't (and shouldn't) see that on the street.
    2022 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • sensaisensai Member Posts: 129
    You guys are in another world. Please post me a link where a stock 05 Mustang ran a 12.9, and I do not mean one where they disconnect all the accessories and pulled 1000 pounds worth of weight out of the car. Also, please show me a link of a 05 Mustang trapping anywhere near 108mph stock. Hint, you can go to the ls1gto forums and find verfied time slips of 05 GTOs doing that, and you can also find 04 owners pulling low 13s at 104/105mph. I do not see any such thing on Mustang forums. The only way a 05 GTO is a drivers race with a 05 Mustang is if the GTO owner is purposely skipping gears...
  • sensaisensai Member Posts: 129
    Under what senerio did you drive an 04 and 05 GTO?

    You are smoking something if you think on the street it's a drivers race. You'd better hope you don't line up next to a GTO on the street. If you do after you get smoked you can tell yourself the GTO was modded if it helps.

    The C&D I read clearly has the GTO winning, but in the end they gave the Mustang a bunch of style points and had it win.

    Oh yeah and as for your line about Mustang guys getting thumbs up, that may have happened for a few months, but once a million of them are on the street no one will care, I'm sure that's only a month away from happening.
  • sensaisensai Member Posts: 129
    Well I own an 04 GTO. Just sold a 99 Cobra two weeks ago. Have ordered a 06 GT500.
    I drive and love muscle cars. An 05 Mustang GT is NOT a muscle cannot compare a GTO to a Mustang. A GTO rides like a Volvo....and just kills a 05 Mustang GT in performance in all categories......not even fair to the Mustang to compare the two cars.The 04 Goat and the GenIII LS1 loves the bolt ons and they are plentiful......I have mine over SAE 500HP right now....putting 400+ to the rear wheels....and yet it rides so beautiful and comfortable...but with a real mean side to it:) Yes...I have been in a few 05 Mustangs....cheaply built I must say...get in the GTO....leather and you cannot swing a dead cat without hitting a VW's in Mexico GTO...turns heads and lots of thumbs up......I have to clean the nose prints off of the glass after a day at the store......
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    I'm gonna have to call BS. If I recall correctly, there won't be an '06 GT500. That car isn't slated to arrive until the '07 model year. And I don't know where you've been for the last 40 years, but bolt-ons aren't exactly scarce for Mustangs, either.

    I'm also quite certain that most folks will agree that it is not too common to spot an '05 Mustang yet, and the same will probably hold true a few months from now. So the only dead cats getting slung is the ones dealers are slinging into the magic potion to try to get people to buy GTOs. :P And the GTO doesn't kill the Mustang GT in all performance categories. The Mustang has a higher lateral G and C&D tested it to run almost 2MPH faster than the GTO in the lane change maneuver.

    And if you feel so negative toward the Mustang, why would you order an "06 GT500?"
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    Wow! Contradicting yourself in the same post!

    Every single thread I have seen about an 04 GTO going against and 05 GT has the 04 GTO winning.


    Only real comparison is the 04 GTO to the 05 GT and in most cases the GTO wins.

    Went from every single time winning to "most cases" winning.
  • sensaisensai Member Posts: 129
    Sad, but the Mustang was introduced as a sporty Falcon in 64, and is still way behind in refinement today,,,,,,but I understand the Brainwashed Ford People,,,,its tough ,,,,,,,,, :P
  • jae5jae5 Member Posts: 1,206
    As a reply to this post #19 and the 180mph. Got to call the B.S. police for this one. C'mon gunit, 180? Just because it has the LS2 doesn't mean it'll hit 180mph.

    I think it's funny how many are pulling that Motor Trend GTO versus Mercedes article out. It just reminids me of the same article 2 - 3 years ago when they ran the "Two Mercs - MERCury Marauder vs. MERCedes Benz S-Class" Basically the same conclusion: you can two Marauders for one S-Class and get the same room, comfort, style (4-dr, black, V8) but the Marauder sounded better. So in using similar attributes and reasoning to the GTO - Mercedes, the Maurader was at least comparable if not better than the Mercedes? Or what about the original Pontiac GTO vs Ferrari GTO. Basically the same thing, they where compared on performance, fit/form/function and price attributes. So are you saying for that article, since the Pontiac was cheaper in $$, their GTO was BETTER than the Ferrari? Get real. :P

    IMO this GTO comes no where close to a Mercedes, except that hatchback thing. Also, I really don't think those in the market for a Mercedes are cross-shopping a Pontiac.
  • sensaisensai Member Posts: 129
    you need to go racing some more then.

    A GTO has a much better hp/lb ratio in the 05 model year than the mustang. The 04 is closer and will probobly be a drivers race. I own niether but I have seen them BOTH (and driven them) at the track and the fact is the GTO will kill the stang unless the driver is an idiot.

    The GTO is lightyears ahead of the stang in refinement and fit and finish. The price difference isn't that great either. Comparing MRSP off of web pages a "premium"mustang GT goes for roughly 29k and the GTO 33k simularly equipped.

    The only savior for the interior of the stang is the upgrade package wich is only slightly less ugly than the plain one. Looks are subjective. I don't think the GTO is ugly it's just plain. The stang is UGLY. Way to be original ford copy a years old design.

    All of that said Ford did one thing and did it well. They made a car that would appeal to the masses. So if performance is what GM wanted out of the GTO they beat the mustang. If massive profits were the case then they screwed up.

    I seriously doubt GM expected to turn record profits on GTO's. They said up front that the car was limited to 3 years and only a few would be exported.
  • jae5jae5 Member Posts: 1,206

    In terms of the gas, there's a problem with some Mustangs where owners have tons of trouble putting gas in the tank. Something that has to do with the fuel shut-off - keeps causing the pump to shut off. Many have to keep clicking the pump handle during fill-up, it's an intermittent problem. I think there's a TSB for it; check the Mustang problems board or blueovalnews.
  • jae5jae5 Member Posts: 1,206

    Hate to be a nag but what's going on here? Are you actually reading your posts are are you just spouting stuff?.

    From post 32 you stated:
    Well I own an 04 GTO. Just sold a 99 Cobra two weeks ago. Have ordered a 06 GT500...The 04 Goat and the GenIII LS1 loves the bolt ons and they are plentiful......I have mine over SAE 500HP right now....putting 400+ to

    Now you state:

    ...I own niether but I have seen them BOTH (and driven them) at the track...

    Am I wrong or are you contradicting yourself agree?! :confuse: Do you or do you not have a vehicle? Am I missing something here? Also, again, any chance of posting that dyno sheet or putting a link on for those HP numbers and mods performed?

    Yes, GM was only going to export 18K per year for three years, but this years' production was reduced to 12K. What was that for, increased exclusivity? Guess GM didn't want to take away sales of the CLK AMGs and the regular 6-series and M6, LOL!

    Oh man, you guys are cracking me up :P
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    This sensai guy is just here to give us a hard time. He can't possibly be serious in what he is saying. Just take it all in as good fun. :)
  • brushbanditbrushbandit Member Posts: 33
    You have to excuse Graphic Guy. He's lost in Mustang heaven. He has obviously lost touch with reality, and the facts. He loves his car and thats a good thing.
  • bobthephotoguybobthephotoguy Member Posts: 4
    The first time I took my stock 04 GTO to the track was Dec 10. I ran a best of 14.1 with a terrible time trying to figure out how to launch the car without spinning 2/3 of the way thru first gear.

    Went again on Dec 23. There were 3 05 Mustang GT's there. I ran a new best of [email protected], still having traction problems in 1st and 2nd. The 05 GT's were running mid to high 14's. Towards the end of the night I did see one of them run a 14.1. The track was not busy and we were all getting at least 6 runs in, even with cool downs.

    I did get one run against an 05 GT and he ran a 14.9 to my 14.0. We both were in the 2.2 60' category, me a 2.288 and the 05 GT a 2.274. By the 1000ft mark, I was in the lead by 3/10ths. The times show that basically I slowly pulled on the Mustang. He was in the faster lane where I managed my 13.9 later that night.

    Now with my BFG Drag Radials in 275/35, I'm hoping to get low to mid 13's. Waiting to get rid of a bit of fender rubbing before heading out.

    Just a bit of real world experience for those that asked.

  • graphicguygraphicguy Edmunds Poster EmeritusMember Posts: 13,599
    Has this gotten heated.

    Stand by my posts. On the street, GTO vs Mustang GT, it's a driver's race. On the track, GTO will pull on the Mustang GT above about 125-130 MPH. Tires, skill levels, etc. will all be in the mix.

    Bob....thanks for your personal experience. As you say, hooking up is where the 1/4 is won or lost between these two cars. They will be separated by a few tenths given good launches on both sides of the tree. Only exception, I've seen Mustangs run mid 13s around here 13.5-13.7. I've seen GTOs run within a tenth or two...the two I saw ran a 13.4 ('05) and another run a 13.6 ('04). To me, that difference is insignificant and certainly couldn't/shouldn't be duplicated on the street. Little to no experience will probably produce 14s in either the GTO or the Mustang. Keep at it. Those times will drop.

    jae...didn't know that about the gas tank. I've never had that issue.

    As far as sensai, I don't take him seriously. Clearly, he's not really sure what he owns, drives or has driven.

    That's why I'm sad to see the GTO going away......these types of debates will cease.

    Will be away for a day or so.

    Carry on and play nice with each other.
    2022 Honda Accord Hybrid Touring
  • sensaisensai Member Posts: 129
    Oops, didn't realize direct links on Edmunds embed user names, so most of those posts are not mine.

    But I see one thing has not changed, and that is graphicguy is still going with his claim the GTO will not pull a Mustang until 125mph. Again, if one car traps 108 (standard 05 GTO), and one car traps 103 (standard 05 Mustang), what does that tell you? It means the GTO is running away from the Mustang well before 100mph. Keep believing your Mustang will keep up, cause it won't.
  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    jae5, Read the link below..... Yes the GTO will do nearly 180mph

    The Vauxhall Monaro VXR with the same 400hp 6 liter engine as our GTO does 180mph top speed. I suppose you will call BS on that too? Right? LOL! Owned!

    After reading that Motor Trend article the $35k GTO did VERY WELL against the $70k AMG Benz. Benz was better, but for twice the price it should be! 1 of friends with a BMW traded it in on his 2005 GTO. There you go! Why it may not be common, it does occur!
  • benderofbowsbenderofbows Member Posts: 542
    Wait until the supercharged Saleens and the Shelbys start showing up at the strip.
  • hammen2hammen2 Member Posts: 1,284
    ...the supercharged GTO's are ALREADY at the strip.
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    With no powertrain warranty.
  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    The trunk is bigger on the Mustang however how much does the Optional Shaker stereo intrude into it? How much space do you lose? You do lose some from what C&D said. The one I drove did NOT have the shaker. In my case the backseat was more important for the car seat, adults etc. The Holden in Austrailia has a bigger trunk, gas tank is in a different location. Oh well.
  • hammen2hammen2 Member Posts: 1,284
    ...most Cobras, Saleen, and Roush Mustangs I have seen are not "stock" either and would probably face the same warranty issues with aftermarket products.

    I believe Magnuson will also sell you a powertrain warranty... if you can afford the supercharger, you can afford the warranty. If you want to play the game, you had better be prepared to pay the price. Have y'all seen the video of the Z06 with the incorrectly-installed nitrous system? Started on fire at the dragstrip... toast.

  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    The AMG is nice no doubt! In my opinion/experience after driving bot the Stang and my GTO, the GTO feels more like a luxury car, more comfortable to drive for longer distances from what I experienced. It slightly feels like poor mans' BMW/mercedes, LOL! I can see why Motor Trend compared it to AMG. I had a 528 and this GTO comes close to it and for much less $$ then a 530 would get today. Not to mention that the GTO would blow the doors off the 528 or 530. I know but I don't have the SNOB appeal of the BMW, LOL! I don't need that. For me the GTO gets the job done.
This discussion has been closed.