Ford Mustang (2005) vs. 2005 Pontiac GTO

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Comments

  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    Cobras, Saleens, and Roush Mustangs all have a full factory warranty w/ their supercharged engines. The point the other poster was making was that when the STOCK supercharged Mustangs start hitting the tracks, it'll be a much different story compared to STOCK GTOs.

    When you get into modding, it all comes down to who wants to spend the most money. Anything that can be done to a GTO, could also be done to a Mustang.

    I'm standing by for Whipple's new supercharger kit for the '05 Mustang GT. Yeah, I could get a less expensive setup, but I want power from idle to redline. The centrifugal units don't provide as much low end power as the Roots/screw type superchargers.
  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    tayl0rd writes........When you get into modding, it all comes down to who wants to spend the most money. Anything that can be done to a GTO, could also be done to a Mustang. .....

    True, you are 100% right but remember the GTO already has the advantage of being the faster car stock, 13.3 vs 13.8 in C&D 1/4 mile times. You are going to have to mod the Mustang just to beat a Stock GTO. I'd rather have the faster stock car and mod that. More potential.

    Although isn't Ford coming out with a 450hp version of Mustang GT500 next year? That will be nice! But close to $40k.
  • tm2flitm2fli Member Posts: 2
    You 05 GT lovers are on crack if the acceleration between the two cars is minimal. We own a 05 GTO and could have bought a 05 GT. I'm sorry the interior alone in the GT was enough to turn me off not to mention being a MUCH slower car. I did like the looks of the 05 GT but it's starting to grow ugly on me now that the retro look isn't so new to me anymore. We have ran our GTO at the track and ran 12.83 at 108mph stock. With a couple mods 12.60 at 110mph. If you call a high 13 sec car and a high 12 second car minimal in difference, then your smoking crack. The 05 GTO's you see running mid 13's are not driving the car to it's full potential, it's a tricky car to launch but can get off the line hard with the right launch technique.
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    Why do you guys keep talking about modding? You're on crack if you don't think a Mustang can be modded to run just as fast and faster than a modded GTO. It all depends on the mods. Some things a Mustang will respond better to, and some things a GTO will respond better to. I think it's pretty much known that a Mustang without internal mods responds better to forced induction due to it having a lower compression ratio than LS* engines.

    Stock to stock, of course the '05 GTO is a bit faster. But, as has already been proven to GM, HP doesn't always sell cars. The GTO will soon take its place alongside the F-body and the Dodo bird. ;)
  • benderofbowsbenderofbows Member Posts: 542
    Owning either one of these cars is (at least to most people) very enjoyable for many more reasons than the pursuit of low quarter-mile times in a straight line at the drag strip. A GTO may be faster there, but modified GT's built by Ford Racing placed 1-2 at the Grand American Cup Road Race at Daytona beating out stiff, established competition such as similarly race-prepped Grand Sport class Porsche 996s, 350Zs, Caddy CTS-Vs, a Firebird, and BMW M3s. That's an impressive feat, requiring much more than a fast quarter-mile time.

    However, the vast majority of GTOs or Mustangs sold won't see much modification or get closer to a race track than the parking lot. When driving a car on the street, one second out of thirteen or even ten miles per hour faster than a hundred just don't seem to matter as much as the sheer enjoyment of the experience. How the car drives overall, and the package you get for the amount of money you have spent. Here is where the Mustang shines; this is why more magazine editors and, most importantly, eager buyers have chosen the Ford.
  • jae5jae5 Member Posts: 1,206
    Um, yes, still say the GTO hitting 180 is BS, which is what you stated. The Vauxhall Monaro VXR is not a stock GTO, it's not even a stock Monaro! Does mention this the the HIGH-PERF version of the Vauxhall. Yup, it uses the LS2 but it also has other things added, like body mods, tranny, suspension, gearing, rear wing and the like. But again, and my point is made, just because it uses the LS2 doesn't mean the GTO is going to hit 180mph. And using your rationale, I should be able to put th Ford GTs 5.4SC in a Mustang and hit 200 right? Until I see a time slip of one hitting 180, I'm going to keep saying a GTO, as is now, hitting 180 is BS.

    Keep LOL, point is still made. Oh, and this is something I pulled from the site that talked about the stock VXR:

    Road Test Quick Verdict:
    For

    Monaro backs up those muscular looks with a thunderous 5.7-litre V8 powerplant. Handling is reasonable and there’s plenty of standard equipment. Space is decent for four.

    Against
    You’ll be on first-name terms with local petrol station workers. Not as fast as it could be. Poor trim quality.

    On the road Ownership In the cabin
    Performance
    Long gearing blunts outright pace

    Buying & owning
    Reasonable price but costly to run

    Behind the wheel
    Plenty of space and adjustment, but gloomy

    Ride & handling
    Slow steering; decent body control

    Quality & reliability
    Quality not befitting a £28k car

    Space & practicality
    Plenty for four, plus luggage

    Refinement
    Great engine note is main noise

    Safety & security
    Well sorted on both counts

    Equipment
    Fans of buttons will love it

    IF you're going to tell it, tell the whole story please ;) Again, not my words, straight from the article. This is great!!
  • jae5jae5 Member Posts: 1,206
    There’s been a lot of back and forth between these two vehicles, which is good. There hasn't been anything like this since the Ford Mustang-Chevy Camaro debates. What is bad, however, is that it seems the majority of GTO owners are more subjective than objective, have selective memory (the forget-me-nots) and many times contradictory. The following are some points made by many of you and my thoughts – I created two posts because they’re long. Before reading, as always, not trying to offend anyone, it's all good, but it's just things I've been seeing and reading:

    1. 400hp and IRS vs only 300hp, old-tech, cheap solid rear axle: True the GTO has 400 on premium to the Mustangs’ 300 on regular, but in everyday driving, as many of you state you do, what’s the difference? Yes, it great to have that power when you need it, but do you need it ALL THE TIME!! If you’re like me, yes because I’m greedy and more hp is never enough hp, but in all truth, it’s a crap shoot. And with fuel the way it is, give me 300 on regular any day of the week!! In terms of the solid rear axle, Ford did a pretty good job on it, moving the third link to the top of the center instead of off to on side as is the usual case (like on the non-posi GMs back when), put in a panhard bar and they got rid of that quadra-shock mess. The very slight side-side may be attributed to the movement / bushings in the third link, not making excuses just a thought. And yes it is more cost effective and cheaper $$-wise to do a solid vs. irs. But to say a solid axle is cheap in terms of build quality, and giving it an air of inferiority is not accurate. Hell, the old VW Beetle had irs, so did the Corvair. Are you saying just because those, and this current GTO, have irs it automatically makes them better to a solid-rear axle car? I’d like to see your tire bill if the caster/camber are off on the rear, nasty!

    2. Engines: In terms of the old-tech statements, can’t the claim be made that the Mustang’s drivetrain is “newer” than the GTOs? Meaning, the Mustang uses OHC and a 5spd auto while GTO uses an “old” 4spd and yester-tech pushrod engine. Though the LS2 is new, it still uses pushrod technology while the Mustang uses supposedly newer OHC configuration, three-valve heads, and IIRC, variable valve timing. (I state supposedly newer because many think that OHC technology is new, it’s not – it’s actually older than the modern OHV design.) And wasn’t one of GM statements about the GEN III engine family in using pushrods was that they could get the performance, reliability, size and manufacturability criteria from the layout while being cost-effective? So in short, they met their targets while being cheaper $$-wise (same can be said of 3800 series 3, and series 2 for that matter – loved it in the GTP Coupe). Now, using the subjective reasoning, comparison and thoughts from above referring to rear ends, this must mean that the LS1, 6, & 2 are cheap in not only $$ but build quality as well, correct? How is GM’s statement different in meaning than Ford’s? Same goes for the tranny: since Ford uses a 5spd and GM is still using the 4spd, the Ford automatically has Holden/Pontiac beat right? Five’s automatically better quality than four right, unless it’s Ford with the 5 and GM with the 4?

    3. Transmission: There was mention that the GM tranny has been in production for a long time but the Ford 5spd is new, and thus there may be problems with it. This again shows subjective thoughts of the majority of the posters. What, just because the 5spd is in a new application means it’s somehow inferior to GM’s hydramatic? Or is it because it’s in the Mustang it’ll have problems? This isn’t the first Ford 5spd. Also, if the GTO’s “true” competitors are the Mercedes, BMW and the like, the competition are at 5- and moving up to 6- and 7-spd autos. This is a strike against the GTO. And what about the GM-Ford partnership to build a 6-spd auto? What, if the tranny fails, it’ll be the Ford designed parts? And skip-shift on the manual to avoid gas-guzzler, a good feature agreed. But can something similar be figured out to avoid this on the automatic cars? I feel people shouldn’t be penalized because they want/need an automatic. And when I think of gas-guzzler, I’m thinking Gallardo, Murcielago, F430, V12 BMW & Mercedes, not a V8 Pontiac!!

    4. Platforms: There was mention in a negative manner that the Mustang came from the Falcon platform. This is correct. It also came from the Pinto (Mustang II), Fairmont (Fox, SN-95/Fox+4). And the problem? Um, isn’t the current and wasn’t the original GTO a re-badge of something else? Correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t the original a re-badged Tempest with a hot 389 and Hurst shifter? Next, and I didn’t want to mention this, wasn’t the 73 – 74 GTO a package for the Ventura? Finally, isn’t the current model a re-badged Monaro? So, the point of stating the original Mustang was built off the Falcon was…? Why is creating Mustang from another platform negative but not for the GTO? Each time the Mustang was a total re-body and in most instances used a different interior treatment, offerings/options and the like. Yes, the 64 – 66 used the same dash layouts as the Falcon, but there was enough changes made to differentiate the two (this was also true of the first-gen cougar when it debuted in 1967, it was a Mustang underneath). And this stayed true throughout the car’s life. Though it may have come from another platform, there was enough of a difference that many didn’t know (except for maybe the Mustang II). And the current car started out as a modified LS platform, but as stated elsewhere, the only remaining pieces are floorpan stampings (graphic, can you verify?) so it’s really it’s own platform. And wasn’t the A-body also the Chevelle/Malibu, GTO/Tempest, Cutlass/442, Buick GS? What really differentiates the GTO & Monaro is decontenting/option reducing the US version of the car. Oh, can’t forget about that gas tank in the trunk, right behind the back seat. Just doesn’t seem safe to me. I wouldn’t want to seat in the backseat, let alone put my kid back there.

    5. GTO Competition/Market :confuse: : This one is funny and confusing because this topic has been going back and forth since the intro of the ’04. First, the car was looked at as a competitor to, naturally, the Mustang Cobra by car people, mags, and message boards. Then there was mention by GM, particularly Lutz, that the vehicle was higher on the ladder than the Mustang’s market, but didn’t come out and say what the intended market was. So, again, people gravitated the car to the Mustang. “Foul, foul, foul” was cried out. Then the competition was named: BMW 3-series, Mercedes, Infiniti G35/Nissan 350Z, even with a couple of Audis and Lex IS300 thrown in. Some agreed, some called foul, asking…”who said these were the competitors?…this isn’t the competition!!…” Ok, a couple of commercials aire
  • jae5jae5 Member Posts: 1,206
    the continutation of my thoughts/points:

    6. Mustang is not a muscle car. Agree 100%, IMO Mustang never was, never will be, it’s actually a pet-peeve of mine when people car Mustangs muscle cars. Though there were some that could be considered close, like the Boss 9s, 428CJs, GT500 (&KR), but they’re pony cars – created the market remember. So why stray away from your market, the market you created? And I believe this GTO is not a muscle car either. The last muscle car was the Regal GN/GNX/T-Type models because it stayed true to the 4 main attributes of the term from the sixties: hot drivetrain in an intermediate body; ability to haul the guy/girl to work during the week; haul the friends cruising or the significant other/kids to grandmas, vacation, grocery store, wherever; and haul [non-permissible content removed] at the track on the weekends, then repeat. The GTO can’t do all of these: trunk is non-existent; back seat, what back seat? But it can haul [non-permissible content removed], I’ll give you that. Again, say what you want, Ford knows the Mustangs’ market and made the car to suit. It’s a winner.

    7. Pricing/Market: Again, a strange and contradicting topic. Many of you state that the price of the GTO is comparable to the Mustangs, how so? The GTO stickers for thousands more than the Mustang. The GTO is in the $31K - $33K range w/o the markup. Mustang GT’s like $26 - $28K. Second, many of you bought less than that, which is good, but you bought due to heavy incentives, which you bragged about getting, even telling each other about the offers and how to work it. My question and tell the truth please, without these incentives, how many of you would have bought the car? I, and others, made statements before about the price being too high and that this car wasn’t worth the MSRP and many got upset. But then GM and buyers inadvertently proved my point in that the sales didn’t pick up until there were huge incentives put on the car, and many still didn’t buy it. So, if the car was “worth” the asking price, why did it need incentives to move. If it was worth it, damn the incentives, go buy the car!! This just shows again that GM did not know the market and that the price was, and still is too high. Mustangs are moving at sticker, and will probably continue to do so.

    8. Numbers Built/Sold: Yes, the Mustang is going to be a 100,000s unit vehicle. It’s built for the mass-market. The GTO was going to be limited, but not for the sake of exclusivity, but due to production capacity. Yes, the current GTO was going to be an 18K/yr. vehicle, but after that the number was to go higher due to being built here? But they couldn’t sell the 18K, so it was reduced to 12K and I’m not sure that number will be reached. And here’s where the selective memory comes into play: you guys are stating this number and that for the number sold for ’05, but many fail to mention the number includes ‘04s. Also, there was mention that GM didn’t intended to make much profit with the car; that’s Lutz B.S. There isn’t a company on the planet that’s not into making as much profit as possible. In this case, it’s a nice tagline to use when a vehicle flops. Yes the last Impala SS was a 3-year car too, but only due to typical GM, pulling the plug on b-body to build more trucks. Plus, those cars were reasonably price, the market was known, and every last one sold. There were no crazy markups, the car had the “look”, nice stance and drive-train to boot and they improved upon it each year by listening to the customer wants. And as you will note, many are still getting at or near original selling price. Can’t say the same of this car.

    9. Gotta-Have-It: Another funny one. Many of you complain/state the reason Mustang is selling so well is due to the “gotta have it” or “first one on the block” factors. But didn’t the same thing happen when this GTO came out? If not, then how can you explain all those people paying the idiotic prices when the ’04 was intro’d? Dealing with the obnoxious salespeople, putting up with the crap to get the car. Or willing to drive/fly and buy a car many states away? If this isn’t gotta have it, then what is it. You guys have to be honest, Mustang has a pretty cool look. This body will wear well and won’t look dated anytime soon.

    10. Fit/finish/ergonomics. This again is subjective from the majority of GTO owners. The thought is the Pontiac interior is the best on the planet, the Mustang is from better homes and garbage. Yes, the GM interior is good, has nice fit and finish, but that’s GM Australia-Holden, not GMNA. Put a GMNA interior against the Ford and how would the results be. The Ford’s has improved vastly as well. More importantly in the Ford, the shifter reach has been greatly improved. Also the reach for switch-gear, gauge readout is improved. Back seats, again, subjective comments. Let’s be real, both cars don’t exactly offer Maybach room back there, and getting in/out is not like getting in/out of a sedan. You’re going to have to twist and be in relative good shape to get in BOTH. But negative comments were placed on this feat for the Ford, but somehow the Holden/Pontiac was good. To me, the Ford has more rear seat room than the Holden, not like my 2nd and 3rd Cutlasses, but more. And then there’s that gas tank deal.

    In the end, both cars are very good, but the Mustang’s more defined in terms of price, market, options, looks, heritage (nothing to do with the looks). It just has that ‘ummph”, that “yeah, that’s hot”. The Pontiac, though pretty decent, just doesn’t have “it”. It just rings of hurried, quick to market, re-badge city; not really the fault of the car, more so GM again thinking just because they take a great name from the past and stick it on something, people will buy it. Did it need the “right” hood scoop, functional or not? Yeah. Did it need a “true” rear dual-exhaust, not a dual system that fed into a dual-tipped, single muffler? Yeah. Did it and GM miss the mark? Yeah. And this is not just coming from me, but from original GTO owners, buying public, those thinking of buying, mags, forums, etc.

    As I’ve said many, many times in the past, the Monaro, and pretty much the whole Holden line, would make great Chevys. This is not a knock and not trying to start anything, but to me Holden falls more in line with Chevrolet. Guess it's from way back, before the Monaro, to the Commadorre (Impala) and the Ute (Elky) and their other offerings :) .
  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    Um no, the 5.7 Liter Monaro hits 170mph and the 6.0 liter LS2 Monaro hits 180mph top end and they have the SAME gearing as our GTO here. The GTO here SHOULD do the same with the governor removed. I stand corrected! 170 to 180 range. Anyone out there tried it? LOL! Coefficient drag on GTO/Monaro is .31, It's .34 to .35 on Mustang. Impala SS of '94 to '96 was .34. Retro look adds a lot of drag to the car. Same with the retro Tbird at a whopping .38 and VW beetle is .35+

    Mustang is 147mph TOP with no governor

    Extra 100hp and lower CD and similar gearing give the GTO the extra 30+ mph
  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    jae5 wrote........Back seats, again, subjective comments. Let’s be real, both cars don’t exactly offer Maybach room back there, and getting in/out is not like getting in/out of a sedan. You’re going to have to twist and be in relative good shape to get in BOTH. But negative comments were placed on this feat for the Ford, but somehow the Holden/Pontiac was good. To me, the Ford has more rear seat room than the Holden, not like my 2nd and 3rd Cutlasses, but more. And then there’s that gas tank deal. .......
     
    No sorry your WRONG on the backeats.... Once in the the backseat, a chore, the GTO has more backseat room then the Mustang.. here are the facts..... the GTO has 37.1 inches of REAR legroom and the Mustang ONLY has 30.3 inches of REAR legroom, BIG DIF!

    GTO has 41 cu ft of room in backseat, Mustang only 30 cu ft, According to Car and Driver!

    Rear facing infant car seats may prove very difficult to install on Mustang backseat, Consumer Reports! No such warning on GTO, because there is more room to properly install.

    For me the GTO made more sense for my 2 yr old son, more room back there! GTO can REALLY seat 4 adults... unlike the mustang where the backseat is only good for teenager kids.

    The backseat is much more comfortable on GTO then on my 2002 GTP coupe.
  • bobthephotoguybobthephotoguy Member Posts: 4
    Quote:
    To me, that difference is insignificant and certainly couldn't/shouldn't be duplicated on the street

    What I was trying to point out is that the time slips show that the 04 GTO started of a bit worse than the 05 GT (for all intents a purposes, they were the same). It then managed to pulled ahead and kept pulling ahead slightly, as shown by the 1000' and 1/4 mile times. To me this says that the 04 GTO out accelerated the 05 GT (also, I was being pretty easy on the shifting, wheel spin was definately a factor even going into 4th).

    Yes it is a small difference but is an indicator.

    Yes there are guys running the 05 GT in to the mid 13's, but there are also guys running the 04 GTO in to the low 13's.

    When the new mustang came out and I saw one or two on the road, I thought they looked pretty good. The more I see them the more it looks inconsistent with the styling. Sometimes when I see one at a certain angle or color, it really makes me go 'Ewww!' A lot is personal preference, but my coworkers, who loved the new style, are starting to say the same thing. I hand it to Ford, the style was a marketing coop, but I think it is going to get old fast. Also where do they go from here? Retro the 1971 fastback look? I just don't see an obvious direction that the design can go from here.

    One of the things I really like about the GTO styling is it is not an 'in your face' look. Most people don't give it a second glance until they hear the exhaust (this includes boys in blue). With my new wheels and tires, the looks have changed, but the car is still overlooked by most people.
    http://www.bobthephotoguy.com/Rims/

    Anyways....

    discussion and debate is always fun. :-)

    Bob
  • hammen2hammen2 Member Posts: 1,284
    I haven't had time to read all of/digest your post, but wanted to point out a couple of things.

    First, I have seen an instrument panel photo from a GTO at 177 mph. The tach is where it should be at this point, so I don't think it's a Photoshop (if it is, it's a very good one - I work for a commercial printing company and see lots of Photoshopped images on a daily basis). On another discussion board there are GTO owners in the armed services who regularly make 165+ mph runs on the Autobahn.

    Second, you say the GTO is not a muscle car and make the comment "back seat. What back seat?" You must have the Mustang and GTO confused. It is the GTO which seats 4 adults, not the Mustang. I have had 3 good-sized passengers in my GTO - getting in and out is a bit of a PITA, but once in it's very comfortable That's one reason why I could NOT ever buy a Mustang - and it's another reason why the GTO plays to a little different market than the Ford. I will also take issue with the trunk size - sure it's small - but I buy groceries and don't have any issue fitting them in the trunk. I can also go away for a weekend and fit anything and everything I and my wife need in the GTO. If we're going away for longer we'll take her Envoy :-)

    Everybody here needs to take a step back and realize that there is NO empirical "BETTER THAN" vehicle. It's up to each individual to make their own decision what is important to them. If you want the best stock performance, and not just in a straight line, the GTO is probably your car. If you want lowest price, it's the Mustang. If you need 4 passengers, it's the GTO. If you need a huge trunk, it's the Mustang. You have to evaluate what criteria are important to you.

    --Robert
  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    Jae5 wrote........Yes the last Impala SS was a 3-year car too, but only due to typical GM, pulling the plug on b-body to build more trucks. Plus, those cars were reasonably price, the market was known, and every last one sold. There were no crazy markups, the car had the “look”, nice stance and drive-train to boot and they improved upon it each year by listening to the customer wants. And as you will note, many are still getting at or near original selling price. Can’t say the same of this car. ........

    There are NO 1994 to 1996 Impala SS that are getting at or near their original $25k selling price!! There is a 1996 for sale by me with about 40k orig miles mint condition and they are asking $13k for it. 50% of it's orig price! LOL! All cars depreciate unless they are classics
  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    Actually if you want a BIG trunk you wouldn't buy either the Mustang or GTO, LOL! I fit my 2 yr olds stroller, diaper bag and our groceries, luggate etc in there. you learn to pack the essentials, LOL! Yeah the GTO trunk is small because they had to relocate the gas tank for US safety there, but it still gets the job done for us. If I need a bigger trunk I use our Infiniti luxury sedan which haa a nearly 16 cu ft trunk!
  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    jae5 wrote........Did it need a “true” rear dual-exhaust, not a dual system that fed into a dual-tipped, single muffler? Yeah. Did it and GM miss the mark? Yeah. And this is not just coming from me, but from original GTO owners, buying public, those thinking of buying, mags, forums, etc. ........

    The 2005 GTO has a true REAL dual exhaust system from the engine back. Not sure what you are talking about a dual tipped single muffler? Whatever.... In my opinion it has a better sound then the 2005 Mustang GT. Car and Driver said it sounded angrier then Msutang, LOL! The sound from my 2005 GTO sounds similar to the GTO's of the 1960's that I remember. Pretty impressive for a stock factory exhaust sound! Sounds better then the vettes
  • hammen2hammen2 Member Posts: 1,284
  • hammen2hammen2 Member Posts: 1,284
    Jae, you expressed concern about the GTO having the gas tank in a steel cage behind the back seat.

    First and foremost, the Monaro, up until 2005, had the gas tank behind the rear axle (between it and the bumper). There aren't a lot of fiery rear-end collisions in Oz, but GM felt compelled to move the tank inside the trunk (boot) to satisfy safety concerns. After all, Ford has had issues for years with rear-end collisions (think Pintos and Crown Victorias, especially cop cars).

    If you'd ever pulled back the lining around the GTO's fuel tank, you will see that the steel structure is VERY thick and VERY strong - just like a lot of race cars.

    On most cars, the fuel tank is under the rear seat, not in a steel cage. On the GTO it's behind the rear seat, inside the steel cage. I don't have kids, but if I did, I'd have NO issues with putting them back there - probably safer than in your average sedan, again, with the tank under the rear seat.

    --Robert
  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    jae5 wrote......7. Pricing/Market: Again, a strange and contradicting topic. Many of you state that the price of the GTO is comparable to the Mustangs, how so? The GTO stickers for thousands more than the Mustang. The GTO is in the $31K - $33K range w/o the markup. Mustang GT’s like $26 - $28K. Second, many of you bought less than that, which is good, but you bought due to heavy incentives, which you bragged about getting, even telling each other about the offers and how to work it. My question and tell the truth please, without these incentives, how many of you would have bought the car?......

    Jae5, I would NEVER pay MSRP for a GTO and I would NEVER pay MSRP for a Mustang either neither car is worth that....... I don't pay MSRP for any car and I never buy the first year of any car, esp American ones , wait for the bugs to be worked out and for the demand to dro therefore price will drop. I prefer leftovers myself. Same thing happened with the retro Tbird, dealers trying to charge $10k over MSRP, and some idiots were paying it too, LOL! They had to be FIRST.

    Remember the VW NEW Beetle when it came out in 1997 or 1998? People were paying MSRP or higher to get it and be first. Remember people were selling them used 2 months later and getting nearly what they paid back for. Guess what? Today you can buy one for under MSRP for a good price. Or a used 1 yr old one for 25% off. Don't always be first, because you are going to pay top dollar. As I say now for the MILLIONTH time, these cars just depreciate one way or the other, lets see next yr what the 2005 mustang is worth. It will drop in price! I would wait until 2006 or later unless you have a good Ford employee discount or something !
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    ...

    The 2005 GTO has a true REAL dual exhaust system from the engine back. Not sure what you are talking about a dual tipped single muffler? Whatever.... In my opinion it has a better sound then the 2005 Mustang GT. Car and Driver said it sounded angrier then Msutang, LOL! The sound from my 2005 GTO sounds similar to the GTO's of the 1960's that I remember. Pretty impressive for a stock factory exhaust sound! Sounds better then the vettes


    He's talking about the '04 GTO. And I would hope that a 5.7L V8 would sound "angrier" than a 4.6L V8.
  • andyandy Member Posts: 21
    Ok since your argument is that in actual street driving the GTO performance is about the same as the Ford. Since you are making a more practical real world argument, here is my practical real world answer for the following points.

    1) suspension: GTO is smoother and its IRS is more comfortable than the GT
    2) Roomy: as already stated the back seat is much larger.
    3) Interior: you even state yourself that the GTO is of high quality but other GMNA interiors stink. Maybe so, but that is totally irrelevant. I don't think there is anyone that would claim the GT has equal quality of plastics and leathers than the GTO.
    4) Price: why talk sticker prices. can we talk actual typical transaction prices. 05 GTOs go for a bit under 30k and 04's for under 25k, GTs are going for sticker which is about 28k. Not much difference. In 2 years when GTs are 5k off, than you might have an argument that the GT is a better value.
    5) Gotta have it factor is that initial Buzz a "hot" car has for the first year or so. PT cruiser, Beetles, Tbirds, Minis all had that. These cars get talked about more than average in the media. The GTO was never "hot" car.
    6) Exclusivity. You state that the GTOs selling in small numbers and its eventual cancellation in 06 is a bad thing. Why would you rather drive a car that is on every block vs something you see very infrequently.
  • tm2flitm2fli Member Posts: 2
    Man it's something to see mustang owners hitting every GTO site trying to tell us the mustang is better than the GTO.

    For those wannabe critics on here..how many of you have actually driven a 05 GTO????

    Yeah that's what I thought...bunch of magazine reading, know it all analysts posting from magazine information.

    If you ask a 05 GTO owner how much they like their car, you get an overwhelming response that they love it and is the best car the have ever bought. Me included.
    So typing about how a rebadged holden shouldn't have been a GTO, how it really isn't that fast, not marketed in the right "niche" doesn't mean anything to me..we bought the car, it's a great car and absolutely do not regret it, so quit telling me I made a mistake of getting a GTO instead of a 05 GT.
  • buddhabmanbuddhabman Member Posts: 252
    The 24 Hours of Bathurst is a great race on a great road course. If they play this event on SpeedTV again make sure to watch it. I watched the 24 Hours of Bathurst race last year and the Holden Monaro/GTO was pretty dominating. It ran circles around M3's and beat the Ford Commodores pretty handily. After watching that race and tuning into some of the V8 Supercar races in Australia, there is little doubt in my mind that when GM gets the GTO race program up and running, the GTO will dominate. I like the new Mustang GT, it is a looker and a great value, and the Shelby GT 500 is awesome. I think I prefer the GTO for the interior quality, the stealthy exterior, and handiling. Yes there are a bunch of mod parts/tuner kits coming out to make Mustangs ridiculously quick, but i think there will be similar opportunities for the GTO, like SLP or Mallet. I also think the parts available to refine the GTO handling will make it very hard to beat on windy roads.

    GOAT POWER :D
  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    FYI.....tayl0rd.....The 2004 GTO has a real dual exhaust system too! The 2 real pipes were run out to one side together, but are TRUE dual exhaust! I don't GM had enough time for 2004 to run them out to the sides like on the 2005, but I have seen some 2004 owners have them switched over.
  • jae5jae5 Member Posts: 1,206
    No, I'm correct in my statement. Read it again, it clearly states "...To me, the Ford has more rear seat room...." Again, key phrase being "to me".

    Then you state the GTO is much more comfortable than the 02 GTP. That's your opinion, personally I didn't find the backseat of the GTO comfortable one bit. And again, don't mean to rant, but having the tank behind the seat bothers me.

    Again, we agree to disagree. ;)
  • jae5jae5 Member Posts: 1,206
    I don't either (pay MSRP for ANY car). I don't finance cars, I pay cash for them. And I also don't deal with the MSRP prices for the options either. And yes, you've said that many times, not a million, but many :P

    Nor do I buy ANY car the first year it comes out, as you stated there are bugs. Know this is off-topic, but the same thing happened with the PT Cruisers as well. People were paying 300M money for one, which I thought was crazy!!

    But the question still stands to be asked, without all the incentives how many would have bought this car?
  • jae5jae5 Member Posts: 1,206
    Ok, so now the GTO should hit 180, albeit with the governor removed. Last time it did hit 180, no mention of governor. What happened? :confuse:

  • jae5jae5 Member Posts: 1,206
    Hey hammen,

    Yes, the Monaro had the tank behind the rear axle. For the GTO it was moved to behind the back seat to meet safety regulations for rear-end crashes. Yes have seen the structure, didn't notice if there was foam around it, separating the tank from the case. Also don't know if the tank has foam on the inside as well, as with a fuel cell. Would actually prefer a racing fuel cell versus a tank if I'm putting it in the passenger/trunk compartment. Does it have a fuel shut-off in case of a crash (like the button on Fords)?

    Yes, the tank on many vehicles are under the seat; but it's just my feeling better that the tank is "physically" outside the inner/passenger compartment. I'm just glad it's not like on the old p/u trucks, where the tank was in-cab, directly behind the seat!
  • jae5jae5 Member Posts: 1,206
    G,

    Um, if you read the whole thing, I also mentioned "...when it was intro'd...did it need hood scoop...did it need a real dual exhaust...". That should have clued you in that I was talking about the '04. Again, stop being selective.

    Keep up, will you :P

    (Just kidding - oh, and when are you going to get your GTO to 180 while carrying your luggage, baby stroller, golf bag, groceries, along three adults and baby seat ;) )
  • benderofbowsbenderofbows Member Posts: 542
    Pontiac GTO: Heavy incentives by the end of its' first year on the market! GM begs its loyalists with unheard of additional incentives for GM credit card holders. Even this won't help them meet their sales goals, and many 2004 models sit unloved on dealers' lots well into 2005.

    Ford Mustang: No sign of discounts, not to mention incentives! Quite the contrary, most dealers will not even honor the employee or supplier purchase plans. But this is the killer: orders are backlogged so far that, if you'd like to order a 2005 Mustang of any kind, too bad. You'll have to wait until 2006!

    (By the way, even the old body style 2004 Mustangs were all gone before the Brand New 2004 GTOs!)
  • jae5jae5 Member Posts: 1,206
    Um, the pipes run into a resonator that has a single tip.

    Everyone, my mistake from the original post.

    True, the car does have a dual exhaust but the pipes run into a resonator that has a single tip. But that's not a true dual exhaust because the pipes come back together - it doesn't stay dual from the cat-back. It's separate until the end, not a true dual exhaust to me and to many others for that matter.

    Back to the debate!
  • hammen2hammen2 Member Posts: 1,284
    Hmm. You are Pontiac marketing. Let's launch a 350 hp RWD sports car primarily in the Midwest, in the middle of winter, follow it up with virtually NO marketing or ads, and let our dealership body throw $5-$10k of ADM on the price. Said dealership body generally also won't allow test-drives without a signed purchase contract. Keep building cars until October 2004 (I'm sure the 2004 Mustangs were done months before that, and they didn't have to go halfway around the world to get to their dealers), don't offer any incentives until late July, then panic when they're not selling. Also, drop hints all year long to enthusiasts (and confirm in August) that "next year's model" will have more HP and oft-requested hood scoops. And wonder why you can't sell them?

    '05 marketing is no better but they're still selling their planned 1k/month, with minimal incentives, thank you very much.

    Weren't Ford dealers having a problem getting rid of the '03-'04 Cobras? I've seen several Mustang enthusiasts crowing about paying under invoice for them, and dealers having them on their lots well into the next model year...

    --Robert
  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    For the umpteenth time here.... the GOVERNED spd of the GTO is 158mph, Mustang is 147mph NO governor!! .The GTO will do 180 with the governor removed, Someone already posted that they saw a picture at 177mph. If you have read some of the other forums there are people in Germany that do cruise at 165+mph on autobahn in their GTO. I would NEVER try this.
  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    benderofbows wrote.......(By the way, even the old body style 2004 Mustangs were all gone before the Brand New 2004 GTOs!).....

    Incorrect, the 2004 Mustangs were NOT all gone before the new 2004 GTO, not sure where you got that info because in my area near NY City here....there are still NEW 2004 Mustangs on the Ford Dealer parking lot by me with heavy incentives that still haven't moved yet. I have seen advertisements in my local paper with the big markoffs on them. In fact one dealer still has a silver 2005 V8 sitting there for 3 weeks, just saw it again this morning!

    As for the 2005 GTO, my dealer told me that you can NOT order one anymore either! You have to wait for the 2005's enroute to the USA since they are still building the

    Yes, GM is selling their planned 1k 2005 GTO's per month with minimal incentives. Only the $1k rebate which just came out on April 1st.
  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    jae5 writes..... it doesn't stay dual from the cat-back. It's separate until the end, not a true dual exhaust to me and to many others for that matter......

    here it is FOR THE LAST TIME!!! .... the 2004 GTO has REAL, TRUE DUAL EXHAUST! The pipes do NOT come back together. Check your info before you post.

    Mechanically, the exhaust system on the 2004 GTO consists of two completely independent exhaust paths that run from the manifolds to the outlet pipes, ensuring there is no mixture of exhaust gases.

    Through the efforts of engineers on two continents, a true dual exhaust system was developed and acoustically tuned like a finely crafted woodwind instrument, yet enables the heavy-breathing, low-back pressure needs of the 350-horsepower LS1 V8 powerplant.

    Believe what you want, here are the facts!
  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    Here is the reason why the Mustang is $5k cheaper then the GTO.... Saw this on another site... funny but true...

    the Mustang is less expensive because Ford cut a number of corners building that car.

    "The performance of the GTO clearly blows the Mustang away. The engine, transmission and chassis aren't even close. Think of the GTO as a Cobra -- while the Mustang is just a GT. And with this Cobra -- you can still bolt a puffer on it for astronomical output. You can do the same with the Mustang -- but, seriously, the 4.6 Romeo platform has always been weak.

    The interiors aren't even close, either. The Mustang's is small and cheap. It's gauges are HORRIBLE. The seats are awful, awful, awful. No lateral support. And the Mustang's steering wheel doesn't telescope -- so if you've got long legs -- prepare to assume an arms-out gorilla-like driving position. Sure, the Mustang's got a bigger trunk and fold-down back seat -- but the GTO is the ROOMIER backseat and ROOMIER car.

    That said, the manual shifter in the Stang is light years ahead of the flubbery, rubbery unit in the GTO. Then again, a $225 shift kit fixes that. Automatic tranny GTO is same or faster then manual shift GTO or manual shift Stand, LOL! Funny!

    There are other, subtle differences in the GTO that clearly state that this car is a totally different, much more refined car than the Mustang. For example, the build quality of the GTO is fantastic. The fit and finish of mine is as good as BMW and better than Mercedes. Reflected surfaces down the entire side of the car, across the fender, door and quarter panel don't vary one iota -- even across seams. That is incredible. This car has already been compared by Motor Trend to the AMG $70k benz. Never see a stang compared to that car!! Then there's the design of the door. The GTO has glass in frame windows. These seal better and reduce wind noise. They last forever, too. The Ford? Just a big, dumb rubber seal that's going to whistle with wind noise in about 18 months. Truly an inferior design.Ask some mid 1990's Mustang owners about that... seals wearing out flapping etc.

    Bottom line? Ford has cut all kinds of corners to bring the Mustang in at a lower sticker price. The solid rear axle chassis. The infrerior interior. The cheap door seals. The GTO? It costs more -- and the extra effort shows.

    Consumer Reports on Mustang interior..........But the materials look and feel LOW-GRADE with thin, hard, plastics throughout. Some cubby doors open and close AWKWARDLY, and their hard surfaces lack the soft, rubberized cover found on other vehicles in this class!

    The Mustang LACKS the finesse of the best sports cars in this price range including the Subaru WRX and Mazda RX8.

    There is NO DUMBED down CHEAP version of the GTO like there is with the V6 secretarial $19k stang. Your $28k stang looks just like someones base $19k stang. IT will get worse with the GT500 for $40k, when someone can buy the base V6 for $19k and look the same. No exclusitivity on Stang. Enjoy seeing them a dime a dozen like Accord/Camry/taurus of the world. Retro look will fade soon. Ford's best was to copy their 1967 or 1968 stand and make it new again? They couldn't come up with a new orig. design? LOL! To each their own

    Sales do not make one car better then another, if that was the case a few yrs back the Ford Taurus would be the best/most desirable car because it sold the best. How absurd!

    I do not feel bad for buying a GTO as many stang owners have tried to say. I got the better quality car. better ride and to me that was worth the extra $$ which I could afford.

    As they say, you get what you pay for, and that is why the GTO costs more. Getting drivetrain from a $45k to $55k Vette for under $35k, bargain!

    Those are my final comments on this thread. Goodbye! Enjoy what you brought.
  • graphicguygraphicguy Edmunds Poster EmeritusMember Posts: 13,599
    This is one of the "hottest" threads on Edmunds. People on both sides of the fence have got to be pleased.

    Here we go.....(again)......I've driven the '04 & '05 GTO and own the '05 Mustang GT.
    Anyone who tracks any of these vehicles (with the exception of professional trade rag testers) is going to vary widely in their abilities. Further, different tracks and track conditions will yield different results. Track the same car, on different days, with different weather conditions, different numbers again.

    So, all we can go by is what the professional testers tell us, as it's their job and probably the most reliable source of this information since they are the most experienced.

    Here's what I've seen/read.....

    Best time for an '05 Mustang GT was from R&T. Results? 0-60 in 4.9 secs...1/4 13.5 secs. Best times for an '05 GTO (since that's the one with the LS2) was from C&D. Results? 0-60 in 4.8 secs.....1/4 in 13.3 secs. Top speeds on both are well over what anyone, outside of a professional tester, on a closed track will ever approach. WIll any of us (including me) amatuers get on a track will have too many variables (as stated before) to gleen much information from. Fact is, the differences to me are too small to matter anyway (a tenth in the 0-60 and a couple of tenths in the 1/4)....particularly, on the street. On the street, the numbers are all pretty meaningless. They are so close as to not matter. Both cars are very fast. I'll call it a draw to keep the peace.

    Steering, shifting, clutch all go to the Mustang GT. You can quote C&D. I can quote Edmunds on what they thought. What matters is that I felt the Mustang felt much lighter on it's feet than the GTO. IRS of the GTO vs solid rear of the Mustang is/has been a "non-issue". I've found the job Ford did on the suspension to be wonderful....regardless of the technology used to yield the end result. Shifter in the GTO feels rubbery compared to the positive action of the Mustang's. Clutch in the Mustang is very sweet with a smoothness that the GTO's clutch action couldn't approach. Steering of the Mustang is quick and positive. GTO's felt slow and ponderous by comparison.

    Styling? As many have pointed out, that's in the eye of the beholder. I like the Mustang's styling. Apparently, there will be 180,000 Mustang buyers that feel the same way vs less than 30,000 GTO buyers (Pontiac hopes). Some like the "look" of the GTO. Personally, I think it's one of the GTO's biggest downfall. Take a look at the "sketches" MT displayed (the one with the Shelby on the cover) of what the GTO might have been in it's next iteration (but won't since it won't be built), and Pontiac was on the right path. We'll never know, though since the GTO is falling by the wayside.

    Interior? Again, depends on who's doing the judging. Is the GTO the best Pontiac can do? Yes, without a doubt. Considering where the General is coming from in their interior design, the bar was set low to begin with, however. But, I much preferred what Ford did with the aluminum interior and with the guages/ergonomics. I did like the seats in the GTO. That said, I like the Mustang's seats, too....for different reasons, though. Back seat? Both are tough to get into in either car. Once back there, I can see where the GTO's would be more comfortable. I wasn't concerned with the back seat since I don't plan on putting anyone back there and I certainly didn't plan to ride in 2nd class, in either car. Trunk space was more of an issue with me with the GTO. With or without the Shaker 1000, trunk space in the Mustang far outshines the GTO's trunk.

    Build quality? Good in both. I don't know that anyone can complain about either. I was a bit turned off by the "mouse fur" on the interior of the doors of the GTO and the GTO's HVAC controls felt like they came from a Sunfire. Mustang's controls felt smoother in their operation. Both are built solidly with nary a squeak nor rattle....even over rough road surfaces. Body panels line up with tight gaps both inside and out. Paint was lustrous and even on both with little in the way of "orange peel" effect. Stereo in the Mustang is better with the Shaker 500 (better lows/highs and more powerful) over the GTO's Blaupunkt. Neither is going to win over the "aftermarket" crowd who will want to tweak the stereos to their own liking.

    That brings us to price and resale. Like for like regarding equipment levels, Mustang costs less. In most cases, much less. Drop the side airbags from the Mustang since they aren't available on the GTO and you've got an MSRP of somewhere around $27,500. I'll stick to the '05 GTO pricing since the '04 GTO is a year old, so it wouldn't be a like for like comparison. There's a $1,000 rebate on the GTO if you finance it through GMAC (not sure, but I think that's the qualifier for the rebate). While I can beat GMAC financing rates by a substantial amount, let's run with the GMAC terms to get the rebate. GTOs are being discounted. So, thinking that they will sell for $31-$32K, deduct the GMAC rebate, and it should be selling for around $30K-$31K.

    It's no secret that Mustang GT's are selling for MSRP and above, but for this exercise, let's use the MSRP number of $27.5K. At best, the price advantage goes to the Mustang GT by about $2.5K-$3.5K. If you qualify for any special pricing plans from either GM or Ford (like I do) and the price differential becomes even larger. If I finance through GMAC (which I wouldn't), I can buy an '05 GTO today for `$30.3K less the $1,000 rebate, or $29.3K. That's still about a $2K price advantage for the Mustang GT selling at MSRP. I bought mine on Ford's x plan for $25.5K, so the price advantage over the GTO swells to nearly $4K, in the Mustang's favor.

    Resale? Considering the Mustang GT has just about sold out of '05s, and dealers are now selling their '06 model allotments, still at MSRP, I'd say that Mustangs will hold their value well for the next couple of MYs, at least (if not longer once the Shelby hits as competition to the 'vette and Mach, Bullitt and Boss models hit).

    18,000 '04 GTOs were supposed to be produced. Since they were slow sellers GM only brought 16,000 GTOs over to NA. Even though they've been heavily discounted and dealers are still trying to move them, they are still lingering. GM reduced the number of '05 GTOs they would produce to 12,000 units based on the above. It's not clear whether they'll actually bring over that many since, while sales have been better, they still are selling below what GM wants. Last figures I saw, GM has sold around 3,300 GTOs in '05. 1/3 of those were '04s. That means that GM has sold around 2,300 '05 GTOs through March. Based on that, they certainly don't look like they will sell 12,000 '05 GTOs that they are hoping to sell without more major rebating. In short, resale doesn't look good for the GTO considering that '06 will be the final
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  • benderofbowsbenderofbows Member Posts: 542
    There is NO DUMBED down CHEAP version of the GTO like there is with the V6 secretarial $19k stang. Your $28k stang looks just like someones base $19k stang. IT will get worse with the GT500 for $40k, when someone can buy the base V6 for $19k and look the same.

    A lot of the information in your post makes it clear that you haven't had any real product experience with the Mustang, but this is the most evident. A base V6 looks just like a GT? How about the unique grill and fog lights? GT badging? (badges mean alot to you GTO guys because they are all that separates a GTO from a 1999 2-door Grand Prix). And the GT500- Have you even looked at pictures of one of these? Obviously not, if you think it looks like the V6 model. C'MON.

    Sales do not make one car better then another, if that was the case a few yrs back the Ford Taurus would be the best/most desirable car because it sold the best. How absurd!

    They do, when you compare competing cars.
  • hammen2hammen2 Member Posts: 1,284
    badges mean alot to you GTO guys because they are all that separates a GTO from a 1999 2-door Grand Prix

    Your creditability with ANYONE just went right out the window there, bub. The GTO is RWD, produced by Holden in Australia. The Grand Prix is FWD and made either in the U.S. (pre-2004) or Canada (since 2004). There is a slight visual resemblence in the front - just like the Mustang front end, to me, has a passing resemblance to the Explorer!

    Look, each side has their biases. THERE IS NO EMPIRICAL "BETTER" CAR - it's totally subjective as to which is the better car. You look at the factors and buy and drive what you like. That's what I did!
  • benderofbowsbenderofbows Member Posts: 542
    Calm down, we were talking about styling. I should have included that (a reference to styling), I did not know it would be interpreted that way (that people would think I meant a GTO is exactly the same car as a Grand Prix; it didn't have a V8, either).

    But anyways, It's common knowledge and frequently asserted that the GTO looks generic Pontiac.
  • hammen2hammen2 Member Posts: 1,284
    It's common knowledge and frequently asserted that the GTO looks generic Pontiac

    Just like the 1964 GTO looked just like a Tempest, except for hood scoops and a big motor.

    Is a family resemblance a bad thing? Look at the Mustang - it has a family resemblence to the Explorer, the Freestyle, the Five Hundred et. al. (not as much the Focus and Crown Vic). Ditto Caddy - you can tell the CTS, STS, SRX, DTS et. al. are Caddies - the CTS and STS are very close - is that a bad thing?

    Is a car being a "sleeper" rather than a "hey, look at me" a bad thing?

    I would NOT have purchased a GTO if it looked like a Firebird/Camaro (or a Mustang, for that matter). I didn't care for the supposed 2008 GTO sketch I saw. Don't want anything to do with that look. Don't want the police to notice me cruising at 80 mph on the freeway - let them pull over the Mustang/Camaro/Firebird/Corvette instead :-)

    Different strokes for different folks. That's why we have choices!
  • benderofbowsbenderofbows Member Posts: 542
    Agreed! On all points.

    I actually like the GTO, just happen to like the Mustang better. Personal preference. Just jumped in to defend it against those that were claiming it was not comparable, quality sucks, etc.
  • benderofbowsbenderofbows Member Posts: 542
    image

    image
  • graphicguygraphicguy Edmunds Poster EmeritusMember Posts: 13,599
    You didn't like the '07-'08 GTO sketch? While I agree, I wouldn't have been a fan of the return to the F-body design thought process, I did think the future model GTO sketch I saw was more in line with what the GTO should have looked like from the get-go.

    I would have been more inclined to purchase a GTO if it looked like that sketch.

    But, as you say, different strokes for different folks. And, yes, it's good that we have choices.
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  • graphicguygraphicguy Edmunds Poster EmeritusMember Posts: 13,599
    Those are the most telling two pics I've ever seen posted.

    '90s styled GP......'04 styled GTO. Not much difference (although, I was a fan of the GP in '97...that was 8 years ago).
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  • bobthephotoguybobthephotoguy Member Posts: 4
    Quote "Considering the Mustang GT has just about sold out of '05s, and dealers are now selling their '06 model allotments, still at MSRP"

    This statement cracks me up. You say Ford has sold out of 05 Mustangs. Ok, maybe the manufacturer has sold all of them, but the dealers haven't. Also, Ford will be switching the assembly line over to the 06 model soon. So there aren't that many 05's left to be built.

    Just checked with Arizona's largest Ford dealer. Ernhardt Ford. They have 27 05 Mustangs and 7 are GT models. They have MSRP listed on them with a note of 'make offer'.

    The attraction is wearing thin on the 05 Mustang. Pulled into a Ford dealer to get a first hand look at the 05 Mustang and had all but two salespeople (two were with customers) come over and start talking about the GTO. Knowing how most salespeople are, I was impressed with how much they knew about the GTO. A couple of customers were even coming over and commenting on how it looked better in person than in the mags and were surprised by this.

    I think the biggest problem with the GTO is GM's negligence with marketing and advertising. For the most part, unless you were a gear head, you didn't even know about the GTO and that info was from the mags.

    Also, both the 04 and 05 GTO have dual exhaust. The 04 has a support pipe the goes between the two pipes, it looks like a crossover but is strictly structural. The 05 uses a common resonator housing that acts like a crossover to give that little bit to the torque curve, but is still a full dual exhaust. This resonator has two inlets and two outlets.

    Everybody has their own wishes, ideas, and financial capabilities. I didn't even look at the Mustang when buying. It didn't appeal to me and the styling doesn't fit my personality. I am more subdued and prefer the sleeper look. :-)

    Bob
  • jae5jae5 Member Posts: 1,206
    G,

    First, chill. Don't get upset if I, and others, can nail you on just about every one of your posts. Be complete and this won't happen.

    Second, this is my last post regarding this, because you're still missing the point and I'm bored.

    Let's go back to the original post. You stated the GTO will hit 180, then 177, whatever. I said it couldn't stock, and if it did it would have to be modified. Next you posted a link to the Vauxhaul VXR, which I went to. There on the page was a picture of this VXR, gray-silver metallic paint job, has an EVO-type front end, different stance, more aggressive look.

    Hmmm, didn't look "stock" to me. Over to the left side was the article. And it stated the following (excerpt)...

    "Vauxhall has improved the suspension, transmission and brakes to cope with the extra power and added a pair of nostril vents in the bonnet aid engine cooling.

    The new Monaro VXR is the latest in Vauxhall’s new line of high-performance VXR editions. VXR versions have also already been added to the VX220 roadster range."

    Note that it stated "high-performance" VXR editions. Also, there are links on the site to the regular Monaro, as well as the Vauxhall XV220. Also, noted that it was modified, again, just because a car has a cd of .31, 400hp, irs, that it's going to do 180, whether you ungovernored it or not. Takes more to hit those speeds than you think. Got to keep the car done because it can/will catch "air" at those kinds of speeds.

    Then I checked another link to the plain-jane Monaro, and it's from that page where I posted the other information as a follow-up, straight from the site. Pretty good objective review of it.

    That's cool they're hitting 165+ in their GTOs. Wonder why their taking their cars to Germany to run. Why not use the VXR, it's already there.

    Nuff said, back to the forum
  • graphicguygraphicguy Edmunds Poster EmeritusMember Posts: 13,599
    Bob....can't disagree with you about how Pontiac positioned the GTO. It almost seems that since it's initial rollout, the numbers weren't there, so Pontiac just abandoned it. Yes, they dropped a new engine in it, tweaked the brakes and added some split pipes and hood scoops for '05. But then, it seems like GM said...".if that doesn't turn things around, we aren't doing any more".

    Regarding Mustang production, at least the GTs, dealer stock orders as well as customer special orders are all filled for the '05 model year. The factory has about all the orders they can build. That means, whatever is in the pipeline now, the factory will take the rest of the MY to build them. You'll see dealer stock orders trickle in from time-to-time. Some of us in winter affected areas, when there was snow on the ground, got some discounts. But, in the warmer climates, it seems like the allotments are a bit higher because they can sell sports coupes year round. On the east coast, midwest, northern areas, Mustang GTs are hard to come by. Whenever one hits the dealer, it's gone. My dealer (in OH) has totally sold out of GTs and convertibles. Anything they get in in the way of '05 stock coming in, is already spoken for. They quit taking orders for '05 GTs and 'verts last month. They say their allotment of '06 GTs for the first 3 months of the '06 MY is also sold out. They expect that by June, the first 6 months of their '06 MY GTs will be sold out. They already have deposits on 3 Shelby's and they don't even have pricing on them yet. This is a large Ford dealer, too with lots of allotment.

    I don't think that the limited info we've shared would lead me to believe you are more of a "subdued" guy.....c'mon....admit it.....you're really an extrovert....;-)
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  • benderofbowsbenderofbows Member Posts: 542
    image

    image

    And they say it's bad that a GT Mustang resembles the V6...
  • benderofbowsbenderofbows Member Posts: 542
    Just checked with Arizona's largest Ford dealer. Ernhardt Ford. They have 27 05 Mustangs and 7 are GT models. They have MSRP listed on them with a note of 'make offer'.

    Check Edmund's TMV, Still around MSRP for GT and not far below for V6.

    "Make offer?" How about invoice price, less 3-4k in rebates, less 5-6k GM card bonus bucks on a 2004 GTO!
  • andyandy Member Posts: 21
    i think there is a huge difference in the 2 red pontiacs. The grand prix looks cheap. The paint looks terrible. The wheel gaps are huge. The bumpers and trim look plasticky.

    The GTO is glistening, tight, purposeful, aerodynamic.

    I agree the overall profile is similar, but look anywhere near the details and you can see the GTO quality.

    Its like looking at a Audi A6 vs Ford 500.
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