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Ford Mustang (2005) vs. 2005 Pontiac GTO



  • stang22stang22 Posts: 36
    Graphicguy---You rule buddy!!! At least someone on this forum seems to understand successful marketing!!! I totally agree with your thinking!!! That's all I've been trying to say all along,FORD went to the people,got the Mustang they want,and Ford hit a grand slam!! Killer styling-true retro-muscle car with 60's look! Great performance from an engine designed for the mustang,and a unbeatable price!!!Over 200,000 orders first year alone!! Wait till shelby Mustang comes out!!!! gto on the other hand was a great car and great name brand,that gm tried to remake on their own thoughts, instead of the great folks that remembered the gto of the 60's and tried to hit a home run and Struck-out instead!!! Car won't last long on market,they didn't ask the people what they wanted,took pre-existing car and dropped a vette engine in it,badged it and hoped to strike gold like the 60's---but it didn't look like the 60's look gto-its really too bad,because I really like the way the gto looked back in the day,this so called new one just doesn't cut it,and sales reflect it!! Mustang wins again!!!!!And again!!! :P :P
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 10,140
    stng22....why thank you! Having been a GM employee at one time (long time ago), been involved as a partial owner of a business, and more importantly, a car nut, it doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure this out. Now, I'm simplifying a very complex situation regarding all of GM, basic business "smarts" don't change.

    Something I never could understand, particularly about American car companies, why they don't use the tremendous amount of data that's available to them in the form of their millions of customers. Of course, you can say that about any business.

    In the case of the Mustang, Ford went out of their way to find out what the public wanted in the new Mustang. First and foremost, people wanted a modern iteration of what the Mustang stood for styling wise....that is a long hood and short rear. It was also clear that no one wanted to give up the traditional Mustang "look". After asking the owners what they favorite design cues were, they borrowed from the most classic ones and updated the look. That's been a success. Whether you want performance or just "the Mustang look", Ford had something everyone liked because they asked what the consuner wanted. Inside and out, the look is pure Mustang. Guaging the reactions wherever I drive mine, Ford got it right with the interior and the exterior.

    Then, aside from the good looks, performance is a legacy for the Mustang. They endowed it with a very good performing base model. They added the GT for the traditional performance buyer (more customers than Ford anticipated). Ford, with plain old good engineering, did a great job with the solid rear the point that IRS wasn't needed....neither was its weight or added complexity. Plus, the solid rear is sturdier (for those who would take their Mustang to the track) than an IRS set-up.

    One of the biggest complaints of the Fox based Mustang was it's lack of a solid feeling. Ford took a very solid Lincoln LS base platform, then highly modified it for Mustang use. The result was a very solid automobile. They followed up with great ergonomics, a shifter/clutch that feels like it learned some lessons from Mazda, and an engine that his big HP and big torque, then they made it sound great.

    Finally, Ford priced the Mustang where the vast majority of the public would find it to be worthwhile.

    Compare and contrast.....GM didn't ask anyone what they thought the GTO should or should not be. In typical GM arrogance, they foisted a rebadged Australian car on their customer base and tried to market it as the "new GTO". While no one can debate the merits of the LS2 engine, everything else seemed to be "less well thought out" for the American market. I don't know if it's a weight issue or a shift/clutch issue (probably a combination of many things) but performance should have been much better, instead of almost identical to the Mustang GT. It's also clear that hanging a Pontiac nose on an Australian car does not make a GTO. Adding to the "cobbled together" feeling is the fact that the General didn't even bother to think about little things like having brake lights on both the spoiler and the rear deck, gave me the feeling that this wasn't a GTO, but something GM rushed to market.

    That's not to say the GTO doesn't have its merits. From my test drives, I found it fast and comfortable (shifter, clutch, steering aside). Driving the GTO and the Mustang GT told me volumes about how Ford listened to their customers and GM just gave the GTO a "take it or leave it" short shrift. As most said, GM didn't do anything to help the cause by leaving the GTO out there to dangle when it came to marketing it, either.
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  • stang22stang22 Posts: 36
    graphicguy- your my hero man,finely someone who makes sense!!! Unfortunately gm under-estimated the power of the public with their suggestions and influences,that they could have contributed to the gto market,after all, who are the people---Hello--they are only the ones who can make or break your product--Hello again gm--anybody home!!! Anyhow,all companies have fallen,one time or another to this; because of communication, or should I say, lack of communication, they all have fallen to the Corporate GREED Factor,where you basically get by with what you have,a pre-existing model,and add a few badges from a known cool car of the past,and a engine from a different model,and WAHLA---instant gto--the public won't know-they'll fall for it,after all its a gto---Big mistake,public is alot smarter than that,and Ford is proof of that ,with what they have done with the 05 Mustang GT!!!! We all here can debate this to the cows come home,but the sales numbers don't lie--so all-in-all,WE can only hope that all corporate companies can learn from this valuable lesson! Mustang -you win!!! gto-we haven't given up on you,your name alone deserves another chance to get it right-we need to take you back and start over, and ask the public what they want in style,design,and performance and I guarentee you on that day 200,000 gto's will be sold in their fist year also!! Hang in their,we just need to voice our concerns to corporate America!!!Power to the People!!! :) :)
  • sputterguysputterguy Posts: 383
    Guess you're talking to me. I made no comment on your comparisons between the Mustang and GTO because, even though you're new here, we have been hashing this out for probably six months. You have your opinion and I have mine. You have the car that you want and I have the car I want. End of story. The only thing new in your post was about the 300C. And that's what I commented on.

    And while I am at it, the GTO doesn't look like a cavalier. That's a tired old putdown. If you are going to insult the GTO, at least come up with something fresh. Besides, the GTO looks just like the Grand Prix. And that's according to none other than the gguy and a few others. Yep, it's just a generic looking Pontiac. I own both cars so as soon as I find someone with a scanner, I will post pictures of the GTO and Grand Prix side by side so you guys will be able to tell the difference.
  • rorrrorr Posts: 3,630
    Actually, I think gguy DID post some pictures of the GTO and a late 90's vintage Grand Prix. Yes, there are differences; however (in all honesty), I think they look a lot more alike than the current '05 Mustang looks like a '67-'68 Mustang.

    One thing for certain however; the whole style issue has been beat into the ground. You know, you could turn this whole 'style' issue to your favor by theorizing that GTO buyers are more interested in substance over style and Mustang buyers are more interested in style over substance. I don't necessarily subscribe to that theory, but it is apparent that some posters appear to be locked in on 'style' to the exclusion of virtually all else.
  • jontyreesjontyrees Posts: 160
    ...or maybe the thinking was "Hey, our Aussie division has this really fast, well built coupe that we could bring over here and sell a few of." "What's the development cost on that?" "Uh, approximately nothing" "Go ahead then"

    What's wrong with offering the public another fast car? Especially one that offers about the best $/hp ratio on the market. If all GM cars were as well put together as the GTO, they wouldn't be struggling with the crappy quality reputation they have.
  • skeezixskeezix Posts: 45
    People keep stating that Ford listened to its customers when they built the new Mustang. I agree with that. Did Ford listen to anybody when they came out with the Mercury Murader? Obviously not. Gm listened to their customers when they designed the new C6. Virtually all customer issues were addressed.

    One cannot make general statements based on only part of the story. Compare and contrast as you like but just choosing two examples to make a general statement about how a company listens to its customers is misleading. Post #460 sums up why the GTO is here; I suppose some here just wish it never came over. Well, that would leave the happy buyers of the GTO without. Remember, Hammen2 had a lemon GTO, but got another one and seems to be happy. What more could Pontiac ask of its customers?
  • rorrrorr Posts: 3,630
    "I suppose some here just wish it never came over"

    No, I don't think that's the real problem. I think the problem is that people had some fixed notion in their head of what a current "GTO" is and the Holden wasn't it. Maybe if they had just called it what it LOOKED like to the U.S. market (a really good looking Grand Prix Coupe), there wouldn't be this problem.

    Actually, to be honest, I don't know WHY there seems to be such animosity towards the GTO. I myself sometimes go on a little rant against the car but in truth it is more against some of the (previous) posters ranting against the Mustang for what seems (to me anyway) to be silly issues. So then I'd go off about some minor little thing on the GTO. None of that (on either side) was very constructive; just misc. grenades thrown from the opposing trenches. It gets old.

    They are both good cars. It's just that they will each appeal to a slightly different type of buyer and I think it's unfortunate when people seem to think that just because THEY don't like one, that anyone who does must be some kind of an idiot.
  • sputterguysputterguy Posts: 383
    Yeah, I saw them. I agree they look similar. But bare with me, I'm having fun with this. I'm planning on a picture with them facing each other. I've seen a picture like that before. I think it was the comparison with the CLK55. Anyway, I wouldn't have brought it up if it weren't for the cavalier comparison.

    Substance over style. That is very well put. Thank you.
  • rorrrorr Posts: 3,630
    No problem. Some of us prefer style over substance but just don't like admitting it. :blush:

    Of course, with a Mustang you would get style AND substance!! :P
  • stang22stang22 Posts: 36
    Cavalier,grand am,whatever you want to call it,---ITS NOT A REAL GTO LOOK,otherwise you wouldn't say it looks like whatever!!!My whole point is if you want to call it anything else,maybe a mondero gt,I would understand totally!! But not a gto,the name gto deserves more!!!!! I really like the name gto-that's why I want to see gm go to the public and get THE LOOK the name GTO deserves!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :)
  • sputterguysputterguy Posts: 383
    I agree with that analysis. And I'm glad they did. It's just a shame they cheapened it a little, ie. the HVAC controls. There haven't been any problems but I don't think they did a bang up job switching from right hand drive to left hand. They could have taken a little more time and then given us some options like the LS1 or the LS2, hood scoops or no hood scoops. I don't think anyone would opt for the spoiler. A little quality goes a long way. Maybe the quality of the GTO will rub off on some other GM offerings.
  • sputterguysputterguy Posts: 383
    I agree. If it wasn't called a GTO there wouldn't be any discussion. I wouldn't mind it being called a Grand Prix. Heck, then I would have two Grand Prix's and I like them both. What they did to the Grand Prix when they finally upgraded it doesn't impress me at all. In fact, as I've said before I wish they would have put the LS1 or LS2 into the Grand Prix and reverse engineered it into RWD.

    The GTO and Mustang are good cars. It's good to have a little 'friendly' rivalry though, just to keep it interesting.
  • sputterguysputterguy Posts: 383
    But it is a real GTO. Like it or not. It says so right there on the side and rear: GTO. Deal with it.
  • stang22stang22 Posts: 36
    No really, your the one who has to deal with it,because you bought it,and I wish you many good years of service in it!!! To me,I have to much respect for the gto name,to have done what happened!! The design could have been sooo much more,but as long as your happy with it,that's all that counts!!!! peace!! :)
  • brushbanditbrushbandit Posts: 33
    Stang22, You go on and on about what the original GTO was and how GM should have copyed it, yet you don't understand yourself what the original GTO was. The original GTO (the first muscle car) was a rather mundane 2 door family car, the Tempest I believe, that they dropped a big powerful V-8 into. Essentially that's what the new GTO is. The GTO wasn't a pony car and the GTO didn't compete with the Mustang. The Camaro and Firebird were GM's pony cars. The GTO was the equivalent to the SS396 Chevelle, Super Bee, R/T, Roadrunner, ETC. All pretty large, mundane 2 door cars with high performance engines. If thats not what the new GTO is I don't know what is. With one exception, the new GTO is far from Mundane.
  • SylviaSylvia Posts: 1,636
    The discussion is about the 2005 versions of the Mustang and GTO, let's not keep heading into the past in this discussion.
  • stang22stang22 Posts: 36
    Maybe the comparisons should be between the new gto and the new charger srt-8 then,being that they are more inline of what you are saying,because both went about it the same way(the new ones) and are more in the same class..Actually,in one respect your right, the Mustang GT is a pony car and is in a class of its own,literally,because the other gm pony cars have fallen by the waste side--and Mustang keeps going and selling with Classic styling and performance!! Selling more NOW than ever,since the original,BECAUSE ITS STYLING IS BASED ON THE ORIGINAL!!!That's my whole point!! See,here's the thing,while some of the things you have stated are true,here's the problem,when you go and strike Gold THE VERY FIRST TIME, and create the most popular muscle cars of the past(whatever your favorite years of the 60's muscle car models you loved,and everybody has a favorite),especially us baby-boomers who remember them sooo well,and the muscle car Names and STYLES have been now established(through clubs and meets,and racing,etc.),whether it be gto.Mustangs,Cuda,Roadrunners,camaro,firebird,chargers,etc,and we ARE living in a time where Reto-Muscle is a Huge hit(among all generations because the NAME AND STYLE HAS BEEN ESTABLISHED FOR DECADES)--example--Mustang GT,its the cars we remembered when that Gold was struck the very FIRST time and the name is established as one of the coolest muscle car looks tried and trued over the decades.Now here is the payoff--You take the TRIED AND TRUED ESTABLISHED NAMES AND STYLES,that everybody loved in the day,and ask the public for their input of what their wants and desires are for a Brand New Retro Cool Muscle car of your favorite brand,that the company wants to bring back to life!! I AM TALKING A VERY HUGE SUCCESS WOULD TAKE PLACE IN EVERY RETRO-MUSCLE CAR THAT WAS CREATED THAT THE COMPANIES WOULD ASK THE PEOPLE FOR THEIR INPUT ON,because WE the public want what the Styling had that mad us Go Wild,when we first remembered them,when that gold was stuck and the name was built around that styling!!!! Unfortunately,the downfall of trying to Strike Gold LIKE the First Time,and the name has been already establlished around that Style and Performance of the ones WE LOVE MOST,it is and always will be almost impossible to do,especially if its a new style that doesn't resemble the ones we loved!!That's been proven time and time again,whether they were gto's,mustangs,camaros,whatever!! You'll sell some,but you won't have record sales!!! And that's what the new gto,charger will suffer from!! While, what they did with the MustangGT was a huge instant success across the board,because they asked the loyal fan base what they wanted in a new Mustang muscle car!!! Lesson over,SALES SPEAKS FOR ITSELF,because customers got what they requested,HERE'S THE IMPORTANT PART,BECAUSE THEY WERE ASKED FOR THEIR INPUT---GAME OVER---HUGE INSTANT SUCCESS!!! People who disagree(even though its your right to disagree),will understand when your sales numbers slip and the company stops making them again, THEN,MAYBE,you'll understand,but by that time its toooo late!!!!!! Its just sad,because I really like the gto name as well as many other muscle cars,and they will always meet their same fate,because of this really unfortunate mistake!! Successful Marketing 101---INCLUDE LOYAL CUSTOMER FAN BASE INPUT!!! :) :)
  • sputterguysputterguy Posts: 383
    I am dealing with it. Whenever I sit in that comfortable leather interior. And then when I fire it up and feel that reassuring rumble. You betcha.
  • sputterguysputterguy Posts: 383
    You need to get something straight. The '05 Mustang isn't an instant success. It's a 41 year old car. It's at least the seventh generation. The '64 was an instant success. I know, I bought a '65. A GT 2+2, deluxe interior. Oh yeah. Anyway, the Mustang has a large and loyal following. So you really need to look at how many Mustangs were sold last year. Then if more were sold this year, it would be a success, if less were sold then I would say it wasn't such a success, and certainly not an instant success.
  • 442man442man Posts: 210
    Consumer Reports just tested the V6 Mustang Convertible against other Convertibles. Did ok.

    We found the V8 powered Mustang GT with a manual transmission to be FAST and FUN, but in V6 guise with an automatic transmission oru convertible isn't as Exciting. The engine is COARSE and NOISY. Handling is secure but borders on mundane. The interior feels CHEAP. Much of the interior is covered in thin, hard plastic that has a cheap feel and look. But then at the same time they say the chrome highlights looks good. More american car bias as usual from CR. They said the body is very rigid and good front seats ec Yet they praise the Toyota Solara Convertible and rank it above the Mustang, but say it's body quivers and shakes? Go figure? I would rather have the more rigid body.
  • ls6fanls6fan Posts: 2
    an '05 GTO last night and placed an order for a Cyclone Grey one
    on the spot. The thing kicks [non-permissible content removed] and has a very refined chassis
    to boot. I will be retiring a '99 Z28 that has 160k on it with next to
    no problems (p.s. pump just went - first problem). Incredibly solid
    and sound vehicle with an apropriate degree of subtlety with which
    I have been trashing everything that has been stupid enough to try to
    take me on over the last six years.

    Ordered the goat w/o the hood scoops, but added the 18" wheels.
    Can't wait to get my hands on it and spend the summer wringing it
    out on the roads of upstate NY.

    As for the mustang's appearance, I've seen a couple dozen on the
    roads and I'm bored already - looks too much like too many old
    rustbuckets. Give me the subtlety of the goat anyday, at least
    until they decide to market a Judge model.

    (isn't that what you're obligated to do around here?)
  • sputterguysputterguy Posts: 383
    Auto or manual? What did the wheels cost if you don't mind me asking?

    The only part of cancelling the zeta model that bothers me is there won't be a platform for the LS7. That would have been the logical choice and what better to call it than the....Judge. Oh well.

    But wait, someone is buying 28,000,000,000 shares of GM stock. Could there be light at the end of the tunnel?
  • ls6fanls6fan Posts: 2
    $450 upcharge
  • sensaisensai Posts: 129
    Speed TV is supposed to host some sort of event June 12th where the GTO and the GXP race a bunch of other cars. I have heard mentions of a 330, G35, and Mustang GT, although I cannot find anything confirmed. Can't wait to see the other cars get whipped :)
  • sputterguysputterguy Posts: 383
    Thanks. What a great deal.
  • sputterguysputterguy Posts: 383
    That's what I've been waiting for. A real race between these cars.
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 10,140
    '04 Mustang sales =~140,000 untis. 1/3 of those were of the V8 variety (or ~46,000).

    '05 Mustang sales = ~190,000 units. Over 1/3 of those will be of the GT variety (or ~63,000+). Those numbers would have been higher and were limited only by capacity to produce them.

    While an understatement, I'd say it's been a success.
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  • 442man442man Posts: 210
    I just picked up a '05 Impulse Blue with the Bermuda Blue interior last week. 17" wheels, hood scoopes, 4 spd automatic. Nice car. It was either that or Black with Red interior. Cyclone Grey is nice too.
This discussion has been closed.