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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread
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I'm not saying that the CR test is perfect. Far from it. But at least they tried to test every car on the same roads with similar driving techniques.
You're hearing a lot of noise about a stastically small number of cases. Time will tell."
Hate to use you as an example butt... This is a prime example of perception and forgivness by brand stigma. Toyota can keep having problems for years and there will still be those who just won't admit issues. Ask yourself, if this were anyone but Toyota or Honda would you react the same? I would bet not...
Welcome to the middle of the pack.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Having owned both a 3.0 Duratec in an Escape and now a 3.0 in the Fusion. They are very different engines. With the VVT in the Fusion is does spin up rather nicely when pushed. :shades:
My wife is averaging 28mpg with 70% highway and 30% suburban driving.* On straight highway, the trip meter bumps 31mpg, and it's always spot on accurate. I have 6000 miles on the car. I'm finding out by talking to many other Sonata owners that driving habits are the culprit.
*I average 26mpg on the same drive. I thought I was a good driver.
Okay, so this works for you. But, I think there are reasons why most (all?) hybrids require one to buy an expensive optioned up trim level. One big reason is they likely realize that many people overpay for gas mileage (as long as gas is $3+ per gallon, anyway). Folks will get rid of a perfectly good vehicle that is payed off and take on car payments, just to spend less on gas. Can't afford the gas, but somehow the car payments come out of a different pocket, I guess.
There is a lot of irrationality with regard to the cost of gasoline.
If I could get a car I wanted (which would be one with very few options) and for an extra $1000 or $1500 have it get 35 mpg instead of 25 mpg, it would probably make financial sense. But if I have to move up to a trim level that has a bunch of stuff I do not want then...no. I think there are people who will spend $6000 more than they otherwise would in order to save, perhaps, 1/2 that amount on gas over the next 10 years.
City driving can be
- crawling out of Manhattan in rush hour;
- stuck on one of a myriad of expressways in LA
- rolling from stop sign to stop sign in your neighborhood
- rolling slowly in moving traffic through a heavy commercial area like a suburban mall
If it's handled properly then all is forgiven. I have a recall on my Prius. So what. They will fix it during the next oil change. It's never had any effect on me and I'll probably never hear of it again. It's cost me nothing and no inconvenience whatsoever.
Now the two Chrysler tranny's I had to replace in the late 80's at $2500+ each putting me into a rental for two weeks; and the 4 times we had to have our Olds 88 towed out of our driveway when my wife couldn't get the kids to school; and the 7 times in one summer I had my brand new $32000 Chrysler LHS in the shop because it wouldn't hold a charge on the new AC refrigerant - in 95 degree temperatures. Now those are costly inconveniences.
I am certain that there are owners out there that are not happy with their Camry's. The ones that had the snap ring issues seem very very pleased by the way the matter was handled. Those that have 'hesitation' issues are not out any money. The vehicles may not perform as they would like but it's not leaving them by the side of the road or making the vehicle dead in the driveway. It's a performance issue. It may in fact be a normal distribution of perceived 'acceptance' where some are extraordinarily pleased, some are adamantly displeased and the greatest percentage in the middle
a. dont care
b. see no problem
c. sense a difference in performance but work through it.
With over 150,000 '07's on the road now the issue may be a very very small percentage of total ownership who don't appreciate the Camry's 'performance'. Quality issue? Not unless something else arises heretofore unknown, it's a 'performance' issue.
let's see what they replace them with.
toyota is in the same boat with the camry. most people that buy a camry are risk averse. they don't care about 0-60. it's a to b with no stress.
me, i'm willing to put up with some aggravation, if i like the vehicle.
I think that you may be putting the cart before the horse. Many ( most ) skeptics bring up this argument of paying for a premium trim just to get better fuel economy.
It's normally the other way around. Just as in my case I eliminated all compact vehicles first due to size and ride comfort, then chose the vehicle with the best features and best fuel economy.
If a buyer has pegged himself/herself as a $30,000 vehicle buyer and wants the best bang for the buck in features, ride, and fuel economy / environmental concerns the TCH is a tremendous value. Many were going to spend $25,000-$30,000 or more for whatever vehicle they chose. It just so happened that Toyota offered a very very fuel efficient vehicle in that price range with the features this demographic segment wants.
These buyers are not $17000-vehicle buyers who suddenly wake up one day and say 'Let's overspend our auto budget by 75% and save $500 a year in gas'. This irrationality just doesn't exist. The US buying public is far smarter than that.
I will go back to the previous statement. Buying a 4-5 y.o. Certified Civic or Corolla is a much better decision for minimizing total transportation costs.
The problems with the Accord auto transmissions were on the 6th gen (98-02) V6 only. Honda extended the warranty on the transmissions to 100,000 miles. Of course 100,000 miles is not a lot when talking about a Honda. It is more than some companies would have done. I hang around on Honda websites, and haven't heard of any problems with the 7th gen (03-06) Accord V6 trannys, since the recalls were done. That's the difference between Honda and many other car companies. They stand by their cars. If they see a recurring problem they will good-will the repair. My 03 V6 has no transmission problems, or any other problems. It's nice to know, if you do have problems, Honda will work with you. It's all about repeat customers.
GM's inability to provide good services during warranty period and poor response to customer service calls were some of the many reasons I did not buy another Chevy.
And let's not forget other MPG enemies, like drive-up windows at fast food places or banks. Normally I go in to the bank. Week before last, I was in a hurry and there were only two cars in the drive-up, so I got in the line. Well, the bank was short staffed, the temp was over 90, and I waited 15 minutes to get to the window (and then another couple minutes for the teller to come back to the drive-up window to take my deposit. My auto/AC was on full blast. How much gas did I burn while moving about 40 feet in 20 minutes? It certainly had an adverse affect on my MPG.
Most of us can improve our MPG by avoiding drive-up windows, no matter what type of car we drive.
Being a junk food addict, that's my sole reason for buying my hybrid. I can order, wait in line and get my food at the window all while gliding on EV mode :P
Actually, if you look at the Camry Hybrid forums you'll see there is a shortage of loaded models. About the only thing available are the "stripped" versions and people are waiting in line for the models with Navigation, leather and sunroofs.
I was referring to the hybrid only being available in the higher trim levels. I was referring to "optioned up" in the sense that the higher trim level is normally an optional thing to pay for. You can't go out and buy the $20,000 version and get a hybrid for an extra $1000-1500.
But, I see your point that this would imply that the buyers are looking for more, not less on these cars.
Not true:
http://www.carcomplaints.com/Honda/Accord/2003/recalls.shtml
Also if you do a Google search on "2003 Accord transmission problems" you will see links to discussion groups that focus on transmission problems in the current-gen Accord.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
In each instance, I was warned by various people about problems associated for those cars. I figured they were isolated.
I was wrong. They weren't isolated, and every single one of those cars with the exception of my first Malibu has or had major issues. I've looked at what is going on with the Camry and realized that for the volume of car, the actual number of complaints is not as high as it was for the cars I bought.
Anyway, the amount of problems with my group of GM vehicles was staggering. Sure, it COULD be that I'm unlucky, but in reality I doubt that's the case. Virtually every single Intrigue owner on edmunds reported problems with their ISS, sure enough, my '02 had it replaced 3 times in 45k. Most Malibu Maxx owners have complained about the brakes, sure enough, my car is on its 3rd set of rotors...at 21k (and after being resurfaced 5 times).
So, I'm willing to put a little more stock in Toyota and Honda at this point. If my car has its own set of problems, I won't hesitate to report them.
Frankly, I probably should have given up on GM before I did...my wife's Alero Couple lost its steering system at 21k miles, but it was just out of warranty. Entire unit needed to replaced. GM took zero responsibilty and ended up offering us $300 off of the $2200 price to have it fixed. What a way to build loyalty. Finally, a few months ago, I was driving down the highway at 70 mph on my Intrigue when it totally died. Just flat out went dead--steering, power, everything. I managed to get it to the side of the road without getting killed, and it restarted. Brought it to the dealer--they did $1800 worth of warranty work, then took it for a spin--and it died on them. They did another $1100 in warranty work and proclaimed it fixed. I took it home and the ISS acted up again.
Then I found out we're having a baby. That was it for me. Welcome to Toyota. I can't risk it or deal with it anymore.
Including myself, I personally know 8 people with a GM 1/2 ton vehicle with GM's POS 4l60e transmission. Out of the 8, 4 have required a rebuild before 70k miles.
Oh, the ISS, you'd think GM would have gotten something as simple as a steering shaft correct, but that damn thing seems to be a problem in everything from an Impala to Suburban.
True, but weather i.e. the wind, at least here in Kansas is always a factor. A 20-30mph south wind is common in these parts, which in my Suburban means my fuel economy is either 14mpg or 20mpg depending if I'm going with or against the wind.
True, but if you look at the overall design of the Camry hybrid you'll see it's not just an add on option. It's an integral design that just happens to have a similar body style as a standard ICE version.
Yes Camry does have a $20,000 (cash price) stripped Camry so in that sense you can't get a TCH for $20,000 + say $3000 for the hybrid system. However there does seem to be a lot of the <$26,000 models around and if purchased soon they would be $23,400 after the tax cred. Comare that to a stripped Camry and it's like getting the base camry and only paying $3000 extra for the hybrid. However it's only as close to stripped as you can get because the extras (traction control / skid control / 440w stereo and keyless start are all standard and worth about $2000). I could live without the keyless option but even if I wanted a stripped Camry I would still want those other features and at that point there really is not much difference.
Yes, my case was different because I essentially got my $30,589 LOADED TCH for less than $24,000 after tax credits and not everybody has that opportunity. I consider this a bargan as it's only $6000 more than my daughters Corrola S and $5000 more than my son's Scion TC, with niether of them having leather, skid control, 440w stereo, keyless start,etc .
You can in the Honda Civic. Compared with a top of the line Civic EX with Navi 5AT that costs $20,760, a Civic Hybrid is $22,150; and adding Navi makes the car $23,650.
You can do it, but you'll sacrifice navigation to meet that $1,500 price difference.
http://www.carcomplaints.com/Honda/Accord/2003/recalls.shtml
Also if you do a Google search on "2003 Accord transmission problems" you will see links to discussion groups that focus on transmission problems in the current-gen Accord
Backy, did you read my entire post? I did mention the recall on 03 model Accords transmissions. That is all your link said. The recall fix has obviously worked. There was one guy on honda-tech.com who had transmission problems. This idiot would rev his engine in neutral, then drop it in Drive. He deserves all the transmission problems he gets. Turns out he was trying to destroy the auto trans, so he could convince his parents to let him do a manual tranny swap on the car they bought for him. It's pretty amazing how spoiled some rich kids can be.
By the way, I did Google 2003 Accord transmission problems. Didn't find very much. Just the same information on the recalls.
That's no surprise. JD Power is a joke. They make it a point to give awards to cars that can't win awards from anyone else.
No kidding.
The Buick Century has not been built since late 2004 and the last Regal was before that, I believe.
Just like CR does things?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Not true:
http://www.carcomplaints.com/Honda/Accord/2003/recalls.shtml
Also if you do a Google search on "2003 Accord transmission problems" you will see links to discussion groups that focus on transmission problems in the current-gen Accord."
I can hear that metal armor cracking already.. ouch...
That will make you feel all warm and fuzzy...
That will make you feel all warm and fuzzy...
Tell you what, I have. It's makes me laugh, what some people will find to complain about.
One guy complains that his Accord door will not stay open, if he parks his car "on an incline". No kidding. If you gave some people $500, they would complain that it was in 100 dollar bills, when they would have preferred 20s. If they had my father's Malibu, now that would be something to complain about.
Hey, maybe that's why Ford and Chevy keep changing the names of their cars. So if you Google "Fusion problems", you will not come up with as much as say "Taurus problems" would. If you really want to see pages and pages of complaints, google Malibu problems. WOW
Hmm. I bit and did what you asked us all to do. The results are below.
Google search phrase - Total results returned
honda accord problems - 3,230,000 :surprise:
chevy malibu problems - 664,000
chevrolet malibu problems - 408,000
What's up with that?
Here's some more for comparison.
ford fusion problems - 2,180,000
toyota camry problems - 1,660,000
ford taurus problems - 1,170,000
Um, the Accord is sold many other places in the world under the same name, and has also been on sale longer in the US than the Malibu (the Malibu nameplate had a long hiatus - Accord has been around for 31 years now that the 2007s are out. There are no "Malibu's" overseas like there are Accords, instead, there are Opel's, etc...
What amazes me most is that the Fusion has nearly double the problems listed than does the Taurus, while the Taurus definitely has a lot more models on the road. Maybe all the Taurus customers fell asleep at the wheel?
That is strange; may want to try again and look a few links down the page. There's many hits, and the one I was specifically referring to is to a discussion forum, so I can't post the link here.
That is disproven by the JD Power results, at least as far as individual vehicles. Note that many of the vehicles that had the best scores were older, proven designs--e.g. Century, Sable, Monte Carlo, and Grand Marquis. Not many (any?) first-year designs in the awards list.
Also, Lexus topped the list... again.
"GM, which has made big strides in quality, must also further improve its products and boost their resale values. The company still spends close to $600 per vehicle under warranty, versus about $300 at Toyota/Lexus and a low $100 at Honda/Acura. Warranty costs are a product of defects and recalls. These, along with GM's relatively high sales to commercial fleets, which turn over vehicles quickly, depress resale values. A basic Buick LaCrosse or Toyota Camry both sell for around $22,000. But, according to Edmonds.com, taking into account everything from gas to repairs, and most especially predicted resale value, the Camry will set its owner back $34,000 over five years, versus $40,000 for the Buick."
I just ordered a 2007 Camry since I loved the ride comfort in Camry better than the Honda. I was not aware of the transmission issues till after I ordered the car. Now I find that Hondas have fewer problems! sigh!
I've not googled much, mostly I Yahoo. I do know that if I were to yahoo "Toyota Problems" a lot of the posts would read: I've never had problems with any my Toyota. So the number of hits you get back don't mean much
What would this number equate to per Fusion. Considering how many Fusions are actually on the road (Something like 5-6 problems per Fusion). Outstanding.
These numbers mean nothing to me, but you posted them, so they must mean something to you.
Not meaning to sound pious here, but no, I really don't have to wonder. I have seen numerous stories about Toyota recalls lately; 2004-2005 Sienna minivans have a hatch that can fall on your head... Highlander SUVs were recalled, it goes on and on. I've seen all of these on TV news at 5 or 6 PM in the evening and (either local affiliates or national broadcasts). They ARE in the news.
Maybe our local affiliates here in Birmingham cover the recalls more thoroughly than others... it's a possibility.