Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

scape2

In Japan, Honda is not that big of a deal. I once had a Japanese engineer tell me Honda in Japan is 4th in Japanese brand sales at one point. I believe the Order was.

1. Toyota
2. Nissan
3. Subaru
4. Honda

giantkiller

Yes they have a share of Taiwan market but its not big. Toyota is still the biggest Asian carmaker in the Far East except South Korea. Its also the case in South East Asia except Malaysia. I had live and worked in Singapore , Hongkong and Saudi Arabia.

scape2

Someone mentioned Subaru Legacy at one point in here, now I cannot find the post.

Once again, another great vehicle that gets overlooked by the flood of never ending media. The media that takes the easy road and the road to most sales for the stories they write, because if they did vote another vehicle as being better than either a Toyota Camry or Honda Accord.. Sales could faulter..

To the person asking about the Legacy.. If you like it and it fits your needs/wants.. Buy it by all means!! It would be nice to see a different sedan on the road. :shades:

thesniper

Now it's the media... clear sign of desperation. Go, check the latest news on the inside line... more lies about your beloved Ford.

thegraduate

"All you have to do is check Edmunds, KBB or NADA and you will see they do hold their compariative values"

Tell this to the guy who has had his 2002 Camry parked on the street for sale now for going on 4 weeks!!..

That doesn't mean a whole lot not knowing how much he's asking for it or what kind of shape it is in (has it been wrecked before? mileage? wear/tear?)

wolverinejoe80

no. hyundai is huge almost everywhere. that's why they are #5 best seller in the world. only place that hyundai isn't 'big' is probably japan. everywhere you go you see hyundais on the road. hyundai still has a bad name in london(i used to live in london) but you still see lots of them on the road. and the new santa fe is such a huge hit right now and hyundai became SUV specialist.

also, i went to indonesia 4 years ago and i saw tons of elantras. i believe it was top 3 best seller at that time.

driverdm

backy, give this one up. In the stats, Hyundai and Kia are not big in Europe. Try Ford, VW, Renault, est. The Europeans are much more demanding than the US customer and severly loyal to the home town favorites. VW Golf and Ford Focus (Euro verison) are big as well as the Twingo. They have like four different Gold based vehicles. You may see things, that doesn't make them reality for an entire country.

thesniper

"All you have to do is check Edmunds, KBB or NADA and you will see they do hold their compariative values"

Tell this to the guy who has had his 2002 Camry parked on the street for sale now for going on 4 weeks!!.

Are you saying that Edmunds, KBB and NADA are useless and that guy who couldn't sell his Camry should be used as reference with regards to the values of Hondas and Toyotas?

Looks like your Fusion is causing you a lot of confusions.

ontop

i went to indonesia 4 years ago and i saw tons of elantras. i believe it was top 3 best seller at that time.

So what! We're to decide now that we don't want that Accord now because there's tons of elantras in Indonesia? Now there's how I base my decision on which car to buy - what Indonesians are buying. They eat snakes for dinner.

I don't think anyone is disputing Hyundai is a big company. That doesn't mean people that don't find them appealing (other than the chaep pricing) will buy them. Especially in Japan, where thousands of years old animosity (being nice) with Korea 'hampers' sales.

backy

The PRC is not Taiwan. You haven't been around much, have you?

Next time you are in the PRC, look around. You'll see that indeed Hyundai is #4 in sales in that country. If #4 is not "big" to you, then I guess DCX, Honda, and Nissan aren't "big" in the U.S. since they aren't in the top 3.

backy

I didn't say Hyundai was big in every country in Europe. I have personally seen Hyundais all over England. I can't say about other European countries. Although last year Hyundai sold about 350,000 cars in Europe--not a small number.

scape2

What I am saying.. resale is only as good as what a person really gets in the real world... If Camry is such a great reseller and you claim people get top dollar, then why has this one been sitting for 4 weeks? I looked at the note on the window and it says never been in accident, non-smoker, great shape, runs good... ect..

backy

Maybe because the asking price is too high? Some people don't price their cars realistically. There can be all kinds of reasons why a car hasn't sold. Maybe the miles are high. Maybe it has a stick shift--not very popular in mid-sized family cars. Maybe it's a black car in a hot climate. Who knows.

When I advertised my '01 Elantra for sale earlier this year, I intentionally priced it about $1000 above a realistic price to see what would happen (I was in no hurry to sell it). I actually got some calls on the car at the inflated price, including one guy who really wanted it until he realized it had a stick shift. I dropped the price $500 and got even more calls, no firm offers though. Then I bought a van for my wife and needed the money, so I offered it for just over the private party value per Edmunds.com, and it went immediately.

drajkuma

India for one. They're crawling with hyundais like cockroaches.

drajkuma

And you know what? Honda made an enry in there but it is very rare that you see one running around

elroy5

I think sales numbers are much less important than the "financial condition" of the company. GM is #1 in sales (right now), but I would not say GM is in the best financial shape. If a company is in financial trouble, it makes them more likely to skimp on parts and materials, and cut corners in other areas.

What cars sell well in other countries means very little IMO. The "American" versions of some of these cars are not even sold in other countries. The car Honda sells in other countries is not called an Accord. It's called the Aspire (or something similar), and is smaller (more like the TSX sold here). And how many of us are going car shopping in Europe or Asia?

backy

The "American" versions of some of these cars are not even sold in other countries.

Quite true. For instance, in many other countries including Europe, what we call "mid-sized sedans" are considered luxury cars. Most cars sold overseas are smaller than mid-sized sedans, and hatchbacks are more popular in many countries overseas than in the U.S. So a Sonata for example will have equipment that is not offered in the U.S., e.g. nav system, backup sensors, and (especially in Europe) diesel engines. V6s are pretty rare overseas, with gas at $5-6 a gallon.

giantkiller

I stand corrected. I was thinking about ROC. China's biggest carmaker is GM and VW. They're way ahead of Honda , Hyundai and Toyota whcih follows them in that order.
I consider big as market domination. There is no single country on earth aside from South Korea where Hyundai/Kia dominates the market.

ergsum

http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2006/06/08/010402.html

backy

Big = "market domination"? Well, if that's what you meant by it. That puts Hyundai in a better position than companies like Ford, Honda, Nissan, and Mazda, which do not dominate the auto market of ANY country, and in a similar situation to GM, which doesn't dominate any market except the U.S.--and it's slipping there, as we know. GM may lead in the PRC, but it has a share of only about 11%--hardly a dominant position.

Anyway, I'm not quite sure what Hyundai's market strength in its home country has to do with this discussion of mid-sized cars.

truethat

India
Hyundai is No.2 carmaker after Maruti

Russia
Hyundai is No.1 ahead of Toyota and Ford

Those are pretty dominating performances, don't you think?

Other (smaller) countries with Hyundai as No.1 market share
Egypt, Jordan, Israel, Algeria, South Africa

Let's face it, you're wrong on this one.

giantkiller

The whole premise of this argument was wcw proposition that Hyundai-Kia should get better treatment here in US because they're "big" elsewhere. Your argument that theyre big in China because they control more or less 4% of China's market can be applied also to the US because the combined Huyindai-Kia market share here is about 4.5%.
Following your argument, we can say Hyundai-Kia is also big in the USA and the impression that theyre not getting the respect they deserve here should be consider as nonsense.

giantkiller

My mistake. I'm aware that they're pretty strong in India mainly because they prefer smaller cars such as the Santro. This has been the case for almost a decade. Toyota can't crack the Indian market. Toyota, Ford and GM were late into the Russian market. Hyundai wont be able to hold that lead next year. You can count on it.

backy

I'm not "arguing" anything. I was only trying to correct your misconception that Hyundai is not "big" in any country except South Korea. We've seen that is not the case.

The only reason IMO that Hyundai doesn't get more respect in the U.S. is because of their reputation for poor quality cars, based on the Excel etc. That kind of reputation takes a long time for people to forget. If sales volume determined level of respect, there are many brands that would not be respected in the U.S., including BMW, Mercedes, Volvo, Mazda, and Rolls-Royce. Cars like the Sonata are changing the perception of buyers to Hyundai. I have been following Hyundai for about 15 years, and it's amazing how opinions have changed towards them in just the past few years.

wvgasguy

Orient beach was the most beautiful spot on the island

Pinel Island on the north side was worth the visit. We also took two day side trips and stayed at Saba and St Barths. Just a tad nicer than Nags Head.

wvgasguy

I've been reading this thread and I can see there are at least 3 people that really car just how big Hyundai is in the world. Passionately so I might add. Don't really understand why. Other than the new Sonata I would be embarrased to be seen in one.

goodegg

Who cares who's #1 in these other markets? Their economies and realities are totally different than ours. I think what's real is that gas prices are going up, and until Americans decide to drive more fuel efficient cars, gas prices and political strife will be in the headlines.

Cars like the Camry Hybrid appear to be well positioned.

elroy5

Some companies want sales volume. The obvious would be Toyota, GM, Ford, Hyundai. I think these companies would all like to be #1 in sales. A company's philosophy has a lot to do with sales volume. If a company wants volume, they build affordable, economical cars, that the general public will buy. Companies like Rolls-royce, BMW, Porsche, and Ferrari are not concerned with volume, they just want to build the best cars they are capable of building. Sure, every car company would like to sell as many cars as they can. But they should never change their philosophy to gain volume.

bobad

Don't really understand why. Other than the new Sonata I would be embarrased to be seen in one.

You really do need to put on a disguise and go to a Hyundai dealer. Not only is the Sonata nice, but the Azera and the SUV's are great cars too.

jlemoine

The only people complaining about Hyundais quality are people that don't own them!!! Certainly no one can point to any reviews or reports because they all report Hyundias quality is as good or higher than most other manufacturers. Then again I guess if I was driving around in a Honda or Toyota sub-compact and saw I could have bought a fully loaded Hyundia for thousands less I'd be pretty mad myself. I just had to make the decison myself, a Toyota Corolla econabox with a 3 year warranty or a loaded Sonata with a 10 year warranty for less money. Well I guess the decision was kinda easy afterall!

truethat

You're right, i couldn't care less about who holds #1 title anywhere. I was just responding to specific comment that hyundai is not dominating any market "on earth" other than S Korea.

truethat

Your claims are becoming more and more speculative.

First it was "There is no single country on earth aside from South Korea where Hyundai/Kia dominates the market."

Then, speculations like
"Toyota can't crack the Indian market"
or
"Hyundai won't be able to hold that lead next year"

I'm not so sure that Toyota won't be able to crack the Indian market or that Hyundai will lose their position in the Russian market. Hyundai is pretty new to both markets, too.

Who knows what would happen between now and this time next
year, or the year after that? Maybe Toyota could bring smaller cars from its daihatsu line to India and become incredibly successful. Maybe Hyundai sales in Russia will hold up against new competitions. What if GM or Ford goes belly up? what will that do to markets around the world?

It's all speculation any way, and no you can't count on anything in this kind of volatile environment.

Anyways, besides all the fact checks,
I agree that it's good for everyone that competition is getting fierce. AND it sure is getting fierce everywhere.

elroy5

One problem that is becoming apparent with Hyundai, is their poor fuel mileage. With higher and higher gas prices, this will become a bigger factor in people's decision on which car to buy.

I'm starting to think about my next car being a hybrid. I predict the 4cyl Accord hybrid will be a big hit when it comes out (probably soon).

jlemoine

The Hybrids look good on paper but in reality without tax credits all your doing in redirecting any gas savings to the car companies instead, Actual savings when I looked at it simply weren't there in my mind. Most dealers in my neck of the woods are selling them at a premium or with rediculous levels of options. I wish it was true but you just go from being gouged by the oil companies to being gouuged by the car companies. Of coarse it is the politically correct thing to drive today if you want to be stylish.

elroy5

Car review magazines have been saying that you would have to keep a hybrid for a long time, and rack up some miles, for a hybrid to pay for itself. But if gas prices continue to rise, the time and miles it will take to make up the price difference will become shorter and shorter. Plus the added incentive of using less fuel (conserving energy, less emissions) will make hybrids more attractive.

bhmr59

I'd wait a few years before buying a hybrid. Like not buying a model make-over in the first year, although that isn't always true, i.e. '06 Sonata.

A couple of factors to weigh, premium price for hybrid (even after tax credit, which I heard is reducing in Sept) and the eventual replacement of the batteries. I don't know the life of the batteries or their replacement cost. But if they are supposed to be good for 8 yrs, what do you think the resale value would be on a 6 year old model? How much will it cost to replace the batteries; $500, $1,000, $2,000 or more? If at the high end, who would want to buy a 6 year old car that would require thousands of $ to keep running in a couple of years? This isn't like a warranty running out in 3 or 10 years. It's a maintence item like brake pads wearing out. Or, if the original buyer plans to keep the car for 10 or more years, does he really want to spend big bucks replacing batteries on a car that old?

Even with today's high fuel costs, most things I've read say that a hybrid will not save most people money over a 6 year or so period.

If you decide to go the hybrid route, good luck to you.

elroy5

I had my last car for 12 years and 140,000 miles. I think the money saved on gas in that span would be substantial. I would also feel a little better knowing I'm saving energy, producing less emissions, and doing my small part in reducing the dependance on foreign oil.

mfletou1

The WARRANTY on the hybrid is 8/100k, but how long they last is actually not known. Toyota has sold previous gen Priusus in Japan that are running at 150k on their original batteries. To this point, essentially, batteries are actually not dying. I'm not all that concerned about it--until I see batteries actually dying at 100k, there's no reason to be. I've been told that behind the scenes, Toyota has run them in tests and they essentially don't die. We'll see.

As for the price advantage, in the case of the Camry, its essentially the same as paying for the V6. The tax credit on Toyotas does go down to $1300 in September, but not on any other brand.

But what you and others don't realize is that Camry Hybrid comes equipped at close to the XLE level. It would cost thousands to build an LE 4 cyl into a hybrid. So you really aren't just paying that much extra. It would actually cost more to get a V6 equipped the same way.

Quite possibly the single most ridiculous thing EVER posted in this forum is the guy who is trying use his neighbor's Camry for sale on his street as an example or resale not being all that great on Toyota's.

Seriously, sir, are you for real? Is your neighbor aggressively advertising the car? Has he taken out a classified ad? Used AutoTrader? Ebay? Tried to sell it to a dealer? Traded it?

I mean, not even the most staunch Toyota enthusiast would claim that a Toyota could sell itself by sitting on a street! Good Lord. You've got years of data backing up a strong resale record against a car sitting on a street we know nothing about.

Puh-lease.

elroy5

Quite possibly the single most ridiculous thing EVER posted in this forum is the guy who is trying use his neighbor's Camry for sale on his street as an example or resale not being all that great on Toyota's.

That's "Bashing" at it's most desperate, and lowest level. The other car companies have been bashing the Camry and Accord in commercials for at least 15 years now. It hasn't worked yet, and I don't see it working now either. One company says they have more "standard" features, the other claims the Camry and Accord are boring. Will they ever figure out that this approach doesn't work? They should talk about the merits of their own cars, instead of bashing the competition.

backy

Not sure what you mean by "poor fuel mileage." WRT this discussion, the Sonata is very competitive in fuel economy with all ICE competitors, including Accord and Camry. Toyota has the Camry Hybrid of course, and Honda the slow-selling V6 Accord Hybrid. But don't look for an I4 Accord Hybrid anytime soon. Honda has made no mention of such a car in their plans, but they have announced a low-end hybrid, slotted under the Civic, for 2008 or 2009. Hyundai's first hybrid, the Accent, is due out before that. The Altima hybrid is supposed to be out next year also. Nothing said yet re a Sonata hybrid.

bobad

you would have to keep a hybrid for a long time, and rack up some miles, for a hybrid to pay for itself.

Exactly! At $3 per gallon, they won't pay you back financially. At $5-6 per gallon, they wll start to pay off eventually.

Even at $3, I would much rather be gouged by the car companies than the oil companies. It's not really a political or environmental gesture. I guess it's because I feel that manufacturing needs my support more than oil.

bobad

They should talk about the merits of their own cars, instead of bashing the competition.

Well said. We would all do well to follow that advice.

m1miata

Alas they will never sound like a beautiful V8 engine. Gone will be the days of that deep down rumble of say a Mustang. Replaced by the dull silence of hybrid tech car. How sad it will be. May as well take the bus. I imagine half the people now-a-days couldn't use a stick shift to save their life.

Now back to economics. Why not just make cars which get 40MPG on the freeways? Not too hard to do, since Honda does it. Actually, they had the Civic which got 44 MPG with a lean burn engine. Guess it was too close to the hybrids gas mileage, and cheaper considering initial cost of the car. The HX was around $14K, I think, at one time.
-Loren

kwonc71

It's been 8 months since I bought LX Sonata. My car now has 9,700 miles on it. Very comfortable on a long trip, and has excellent acceleration for $19,000 car. Cold A/C and nice stereo made me happy during those hot summer day driving. New Camry was not bad looking , but I still think Sonata has the best look among family sedans. Have not had a single problem other than a rattle on a cold day while its running rough surface. Since I listen music loud, and heard same rattle on my friend's brand new Lexus on the same section of that HWY, it does not bothers me. Getting 24 MPG even with my crazy driving too. Only problem is the color. I wish I could get Pearl White Insted of Green. Oh! well, I will keep this car for long time and give it to my son. I hope Hyundai will make a true sports sedan on Pearl White by then.

kwonc71

Can you guys believe me if I say " Germans have to wait over a month to get Sorentos and Tucsons because they can't get enough of those in stock"? Isn't it something, when you consider that Germans are creators of BMW, Audi and Mercedes?

elroy5

Who cares? Are you going to Germany to get deal on a Kia? I'm sure most Germans can't afford a BMW, Audi, or Mercedes. These companies don't make economy cars, and probably never will.

bobad

These companies don't make economy cars, and probably never will.

Sad but true, considering the Germans practically invented the economy car ~70 years ago.

kdshapiro

"Who cares? Are you going to Germany to get deal on a Kia? I'm sure most Germans can't afford a BMW, Audi, or Mercedes. These companies don't make economy cars, and probably never will."

Not true. For example, BMW does make non-luxury (read:affordable) models for the world models outside of N.A. , their luxury models are available world-wide. The #1 sought after car in Germany, Toyota. The #1 sought after car in Japan, BMW. Go figure.

jeffyscott

Exactly! At $3 per gallon, they won't pay you back financially. At $5-6 per gallon, they wll start to pay off eventually.

And if gas goes to $2 per gallon you will lose even more by overpaying for hybrid...so what? If you know what the price is going to be, you should making a killing in the oil futures market instead of wasting your time here .

$5 per gallon would mean the price of gas would go up by about $2 per gallon. The price of oil would need to about double from where it is now for that to happen (42 gallons per barrel X $2 per gallon = $84 per barrell increase in price of oil). This is a pretty extreme position to hang your hat on for demonstrating that hybrids supposedly make financial sense.

Even at $3, I would much rather be gouged by the car companies than the oil companies.

Well you are not being "gouged" in either case, you are paying the market price. But why one would rather pay more money to Toyota rather than less money to Exxon, escapes me.

venus537

But why one would rather pay more money to Toyota rather than less money to Exxon, escapes me.

1. Exxon is a oil company. Where do they get the oil?

2. Exxon had a $10 billion profit in the 2nd quarter.

Extrapolating on those two points would stir a hornet's nest but you should be able to figure out where that poster was coming from right or wrong.