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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread
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Comments
Great question and one that will become very important IMO in the near future. Gasser? Hybrid? E85? DinoDiesel? Diesel/Hybrid? BioDiesel?
Lets assume that in the very near future all vehicles have all the safety equipment standard including Stability Ctrl and Traction with a few enhancements possibly. All do well in standardized crash tests.
If fuel is $5/gal what will be your choice of engine?
I guess that shows that the average car buyer doesn't research such things on Edmunds. That fits well with what I have already noticed; that consumers can take 2-3 years to catch on and start to change their buying habits.
That's how you decide which car to buy? Ew.
I'd say its more like 8.5 out of 10
Gasoline alternatives
Can't you say the same for most Honda buyers now? Or Toyota.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
GM (and the other American car companies) used to have total control of the SUV and light truck market. Toyota and Honda are now taking a sizeable chunk of those sales.
GM is down 22%, Ford is down 35%, and Chrysler is down 37%. :sick:
Toyota is up 11.7% and Honda is up 6%.
Nissan is down 19.5%. :P
Go to ABCnews.com under "money".
I like its style (in and out), IIHS GOLD rating, 175 Hp, reliability, AWD, and $2,000 rebate going on right now!
Real world sort of depends on how you drive the car. A person that "drives like a granny" may be a "race car" driver to another. Conversly a person who believes the gas pedal has two positions, on or off, may be a mild mannered driver to another.
The EPA estimates are still the best source of comparison, since they all supposedly drive the car the same way.
Maybe so, but Toyota's image has been tarnished recently by transmission problems on the '07 Camry and they are being investigated in Japan for trying to hide known steering defects to avoid issuing a recall. Maybe Toyota is growing too big too fast in their zeal to become #1. They can easily lose customers and market share if they allow their quality standards to slip too far from what customers expect from them or if there is proof that Toyota intentionally tried to hide known safety defects in their vehicles. No manufacturer is perfect... not even Toyota. :surprise:
I disagree with that, while EPA test is consistent...it is unrealistic. I think I would call CR test a more realistic comparison...the problem there is they don't test every single model.
Jetta is a good example...while EPA numbers are lower than some similar weight cars with similar engines (in terms of power), CR numbers are comparable to those same cars. It seems to me that just about every ~3000 pound 4 or 5 cylinder car with 150-170 HP gets 23-24 mpg in CR mixed driving test. So IMO, there is not a lot of real world difference in gas mileage.
Of course a hybrid or diesel would get better mileage. The hybrids typically under-perform their EPA ratings by much more than conventional engines in CR tests. Hybrids also cost as much or more up-front than they will typically save in gas. So if you look at the overall cost of driving, my guess is diesel would be the winner. But there are very few cars with a diesel option.
In general, lower EPA mileage estimates translate into lower observered mileage. To understand what the actual mileage is, you really need to find a driver who drives the same as you, and whose daily traffic patterns are similiar to yours.
My car in general gets within EPA estimates, but if I drive it hard and am stuck in a lot of traffic, I do worse. If I drive it easy and make very good headway with little traffic, I do much better, to the tune of 5mpg or more.
Where does that fit in with real world estimates and how do you really gauge it. That's why the EPA estimates, even though the EPA themselves admit their standards are out of date, are still the best source of estimated gas mileage.
Most of the public has no idea what are the typical negative effects of these specific conditions. The EPA test is sort of a fantasy world snapshot of perfect driving conditions. It is possible to drive this way and many do - most do not admittedly.
50-51 mpg - warm, clear weather; @ 60 mph 85% Hwy / 40 mph 15% City; dry surface and flat terrain; one driver and no cargo; tires slightly over-inflated.
There you go! Stated another way, the EPA test constructs examples of best and worst driving conditions, defining a rough range of MPG to expect. The EPA ratings are far from perfect, but the average driver is even farther from perfect. For example, my wife always gets 2mpg better than me in the same car. Yet, there are better drivers than she, and worse drivers than me.
He also didn't mention that Hyundai sales went from poor to good, accounting for the increase over that time period. There is no doubt Hyundai is back. But their appeal seems to be forced upon us by the mega Hyundai marketing blitz that's kinda sickening.
Sickening to Accord and Camry owners maybe, but I think they're great commercials. And how is the Hyundai commercials forced upon us any more than Accord and Camry commercials?
Hyundai's have been on sale in the USA for 12 years or so. Where was Honda and Toyota sales at the 12 year mark? It's time to re-think everything.
This can swing both ways..
I agree with you. I think Toyota is growing too fast, and quality will suffer. But I do think they will become #1, by doing the same thing GM did. Which is offering a wide (and ever expanding) variety of automobiles to choose from. If what Toyota wants, is to be #1, they are going about it the right way.
I don't agree with Toyota's philosophy (more is better) but it is working for them.
This is the reason I chose NOT to buy a bland, boring, everyone has one, Accord or Camry. I wanted different.. Choice is good, different is good.. :shades:
So is being different more important than quality and reliability? Not in my book. There will always be choices. The question is, are they better? Or just different.
You can have both. Quality/reliability and "different" are in no way mutually exclusive. In fact, they go hand-in-hand more often than not.
Due to my job, I do a substantial amount of worldwide travel, and Hyundai is BIG in other countries. They would not have been successful globally selling poor quality and unreliable vehicles. I think many Hyundai doubters still relate to the old Pony and Excel; unfortunately, they're only a quarter of a century behind the times.
Let's face it, competition is good . . . it improves every new model that comes from Japan or Korea.
Blanket statements work both ways.
Furthermore, for all this talk about Toyota's increasing problems, supposedly at least, they just posted another stunningly good quarter. What does that tell you? There's absolutely no signs of weakness there. Its wishful thinking to think otherwise.
AND, more importantly, unlike, say GM's approach to market share, Toyota is NOT heavily discounting. Sure, some vehicles have some deals, but you are not seeing thousands of dollars of rebates on every car sold. They just don't need to do that.
As I've said on here, I've bought nothing but GM cars with the exception of helping my dad buy a Dodge and my aunt buy a Ford. I've spent a lot of time at a lot of American dealers, much of it in the last 5-6 years or so.
I finally set foot in a Honda and a Toyota dealer this year. I bought a Toyota, of course. The experience was stunning--on a Saturday afternoon, the dealership I bought from was SO crowded there was not even a desk to sit on to do a deal. There were at least 30 different transactions going on on the sales floor. There were people standing there WAITING for a sales rep. The car I had just test driven (granted a hot model Camry Hybrid) literally had 2 groups of people standing there behind me trying to buy it as I did my deal.
It was eye opening. I've never seen traffic like that at an American car dealer. And I've been to a LOT of dealers. In a way, I felt sad about the whole thing--I never wanted to buy Japanese.
But you know what? There is no American Camry Hybrid--a luxurious, good looking, spacious, quick, fuel efficient sedan. I've gone for "different" and was proud to do it in the past. I got burned over and over and over again. There comes a point when enough is enough. I have a pregnant wife, I just can't afford to be spending my time trying to get my GM cars fixed any more. I just can't. I'm sick of it.
And I wasn't the only one at the Toyota dealership that day.
Corolla's by a good margin
Hyundai's - several models
Daihatsu's.
Saw one Camry, one Accord and two Sonata's
All you have to do is check Edmunds, KBB or NADA and you will see they do hold their compariative values.
I'll admit that they finally have their act together with the Sonata. It's the first car that not only does not look like it was assembled from the parts bin of several different manufacturers, but it is actuallly an attractive well thought out design with a lot of features for the dollars. I like it. However two of my friends have a new one and when I asked my one friend about it he started cussing. Seems like he's not well pleased with the milage he's getting with the V6.
My first different car was a 1975 laguna Chevelle with the slopped front end, kept it 6 months, it was a dog and with the 400cid engine averaged 11.5 mpg. My next different car was the new 1978 Dodge magnum, with the fender flares and tilt headlight covers. It was so different I thought it was cool, then after the rear end went out and I had electrical problems I realized it was actually so different that it was ugly. I kept it 6 months. Another different car was my 2001 Audi TT. Cute, and after driving it a while I decided no 50 year old man wants to be driving a "cute" car so I traded it for a "manly" 350Z. Lastly my last different car was a winner. An Infiniti FX45. Powerful, great handling and possibly so ugly to some that it was appealing. I loved it. However at 16.3 mpg I finally decided to get out of the car purchasing rat race and get a bland 2007 Camry Hybrid.
I now smugly drive along under the speed limit getting an AVERAGE of 38.6 mpg. You have to be smug, because that comes from knowing something that others don't. It's not arrogance, that's what the Lexus and MB owners have, it's not ignorance, because that's what the Hunmmer owners have. It's the confidence in a decision that you've done the right thing, financially, environmentally and patriotically (less gas, less support of terrorist).
Camry, the best-selling car in America four years running and for eight of the past nine years redefines global standards for comfort, performance and design. The base MSRP for the 2007 Camry sedan ranges from $18,270 for the CE grade with a four-cylinder engine and six-speed manual transmission to $27,820 for the premium XLE grade with a V6 engine and five-speed automatic transmission. Camry Hybrid pricing remains unchanged at a base MSRP of $25,900. Overall, the Camry sedan combined base MSRP increases by $250, or 1.2 percent. Full federal hybrid tax credit will be available for purchases completed through September 2006. The approved credit amount for Camry Hybrid is $2,600.
The price adjustment for the 2007 Camry will take effect with vehicles produced on, or after August 28 for U.S. built models. For Camry models sourced from Japan, the new pricing is effective with vessels arriving on, or after September 2.
six speed manual?
V6 with a five speed automatic Transmission?
One of the reasons is there are so few dealerships, considering their market share. My area has as many VW or Mazda dealerships (VW and MAzda have about a 3% market share each) as it does Toyota or Honda. Ford and GM have far more dealerships than Toyota or Honda. So Honda or Toyota dealerships are far more likely to be a mega-dealers.
I don't know that having fewer dealerships is an advantage for the buyer.
I disagree. The only country where Hyundai is big is in South Korea.
I have seen Hyundais all over England. Mainly the smaller models, some of which are not sold in the U.S. I haven't been to continental Europe lately (except one day in Amsterdam) so I don't know about that.
Let me be clear. Hyundais and Kias are only big in South Korea and nowhere else.
name me a country in Asia aside from SK where Hyundai and Kias are big?
I agree. Competition is good. But only because it will keep the price on my next Honda lower. So all of you should buy something else (anything else). I would really appreciate it. GO HYUNDAI!!!:)
Quality.. is all perception. Beings we have all been bombarded by the media that Honda/Toyota can do nothing wrong, nor will anyone ever be as good.. I know there are vehicles out there better and just as good as Honda/Toyota. I own one.
Reliablity.. I have now owned 4 "domestic" vehicles over the last 10-15 years. None gave me any problems. I heard the never ending drum from both the Honda group and the Toyota group of "They are junk" "They are going to fall apart" stories.. All served me well.
Perception, pure perception. Look at todays paper about Ford and how they have a recall for fire issues, sales down in North America.. blah, blah, blah... Gee, wonder why Toyota never made the paper about the sludge issue, the 07 Camry falling on its face for its debut? The first year of the Odessy was a disaster, The fires in the CRV?? I can go on and on here. Kind of like how the Escape was plastered all over the media its first year and dubbed an unreliable vehicle? Yet, when you do the research its actually very reliable..
Think out of the norm, think out of the box.. :shades:
I have read that they are popular in Indonesia but haven't been there myself.
Which countries in Asia have you visited?
FYI, the Hyundai/Kia Automotive Group is the 5th largest in the world, bigger than Nissan or Honda.
Tell this to the guy who has had his 2002 Camry parked on the street for sale now for going on 4 weeks@!!..