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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread
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So your hybrid MSRP was $27,500 with the sunroof option only. By my calculation it was exactly $27,420. Invoice here is at $24,642. So with the tax incentive of $2,600, your total for the car $24,000, $642 under invoice, right? Total savings off MSRP, before tax incentive, was $900. Is tax incentive a fixed number for everyone?
Edmunds TMV is an average of total sales, not exactly what people are buying at. Some are under and some are over. It's an average of all.
*(MSRP/invoice)
Here's exactly what the breakdown was, now that I have it in front of me: MSRP $27698 Invoice $25297 Delivered Price $26797.
The tax credit has not yet been applied, of course, but will be $2600, for a total of 24197.
The tax incentive is a fixed number. Right now, its $2600, that figure drops to $1300 on September 1. Its based on the number of sales a manufacturer has (Toyota is the only company to reach the threshold). It is a fixed number for everybody, as long as you qualify.
Its obviously impossible to exactly match up trim levels since certain cars have standard features that the others don't. I was just trying to get fairly close. And obviously fuel savings vary simply by how much you drive.
I wouldn't claim that the hybrid technology pays for itself for everyone, but it comes extremely close with the current tax incentive. The Camry Hybrid is close to XLE trim, and has a few exclusive items (like VDIM, LCD rear lights, and blue tint headlamps).
You are confusing the merger of Daimler-Benz with Chrysler which occurred maybe 6-8 years ago.
Any incentives Chrysler has apply to Dodge as well.
You will get employee pricing plus whatever rebates are in effect, though I found that before the new incentive program, the deals could be even sweeter in June on some models, as the rebates were much larger on some of their products before the employee pricing program was introduced beginning July 1.
For example, we bought a 2006 Grand Caravan that MSRP'd at $26640 end of June. We got this for employee price also, even though we are not employees (dealer was really hungry). Plus we got rebates of $4000 and an additional $750 employee loyalty rebate. So the the van went out the door to us for about $7100 off MSRP.
In July, the rebates dropped, so it would have been difficult to match the deal. Some of these programs amoujt to smoke and mirrors, as my dealer stated on the end of June when we closed the deal, and he was right.
So I haven't looked, but I would assume the edmunds invoice is right or close to it. I'm also sure that my dealer's invoice was correct--see posts in the "Prices Paid" forums for Toyota and others---Fitzgerald Automotive is pretty much the "gold standard" in dealerships and www.fitzmall.com is used by people all over the country to get 'real world' pricing. A few us that have bought Camry Hybrid's from them have been blow away--they are $900 under everybody else in the DC Metro area (these cars are going for MSRP, in some cases more) and they are "no haggle" so you walk in and that's the price. Zero pressure. They sell Hyundai's too, by the way, for all you Sonataphiles--same thing. You can price Sonata's on the same site.
What kind of extra fees were added on to the transaction?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
What I wish it had.. stability control and a locking fuel door.
That's it.
Actually, if you go on their website (www.fitzmall) and search, you can see how they operate and look at pricing. They don't have any Hybrids in MD right now, just one at their PA dealershipo which is fully loaded and selling for MSRP. The MD dealer location charges $900 under.
If you check the "prices paid forum" or do a search on www.greenhybrid.com, you'll find others who have had similar experiences. People have flown in and picked up their car at the airport, with a sales rep there to orient them and sign papers.
I had a unique situation with trying to get a Clean Fuel Virginia plate by a certain deadline, and they went over and above to be helpful, including issuing me a title when I purchased rather than waiting for my check to clear as is standard practice. And they are honest to the point that I got a check for $8.60 in the mail from them yesterday because they overcharged me for the temp plates I had purchased.
Its also the type of place where you can go, drive the car, kick around the tires, ask questions, and then simply leave and think about it. Their price is the price, and the salesman are paid for every car sold, not on a straight commission. The finance people are salaried and not on commission, so neither have an incentive to upsell you.
I should also add that they gave me more for my trade than the Honda dealer and Carmax.
The price on the sticker is THE PRICE. No dickering. The Camry Hybrids are selling at MSRP right now... I'm told because of the demand.
I've dealt with the Fitzmall staff at both Gaithersburg and Chambersburg. They have all been nice to me. "mfletou1" is correct that they are NOT commission. Their salesmen DO get a bonus based on the post-sales questionaire that you fill out. The better you rate the salesman, the better the bonus he/she gets from their boss, Mr. Fitzgerald.
I just lucked out--they had done a dealer transfer from a dealership in Lynchburg and Fitz got a Barcelona Red with a sunroof. I had been checking their inventory daily, and on the day I went to buy an Accord Hybrid, saw that they had gotten the red one. We stopped in, drove it, saw the crowd that had gathered to buy it if we didn't, and decided to take the plunge.
Everybody else was at MSRP + trying to screw with you.
Just drove 2007 Sonata. The interior cloth fabric is much improved, no more "mouse fur" (or did that go away last year???). Still, its not the car for me for a variety of reasons...seat cushion is too short, no telescoping wheel (unless you go to the top trim level), and I prefer the handling and appearance of the Mazda6.
I never hear of trouble with un-lockable fuel doors these days though...perhaps pranksters have moved on?
Whoever did that got nothing. I was already riding on fumes! :P
if someone wanted the gas in the tank, they could pop the locked filler door in about 1 second with a tire iron.
otoh, maybe they just look for an easier target.
http://www.carspace.com/scape2
Not really.... I've heard stories of thieves drilling holes into gas tanks. If they REALLY want to steal your gas, they'll find a way to get it. The question is, how much damage do you want done to your car trying to stop them? Locking gas caps provide a false sense of security at best.
Honda now has 3 v6 engines. The 3l, 3.2, 3.5 and the all new 3.8! in fact honda introduced a new 4l v8 in the Rl A-spec. The v8 may power the next MDX and current RL. Expect the TL to move up to 3.5 or 3.8 and accord to get 3.2 or 3.5. The 2.4l CTDI will also be on the accord so don't expect a hybrid...
Honda should be smart and make a hybrid diesel. It has been proven that diesel engines get the best MPG on the highway and hybrids in the city. Add the high torque from the diesel and extra boost from the electricity and you get a great car for the city and highway!!
The next accord is likey to use the preludes ATTS (Automatic Torque Transfer System) that made way for SH-AWD(Super handling all wheel drive) to make it a very sporty sedan. If the styling of it is far from the civic, it will sell!! Shave off some weight, reduce drag, and improve the air intake system and better MPG and HP can be had. Make AC standard on DX and offer EX features on LX and we get a great sedan.
Almost forgot the ↓ the $$$thing.... :sick:
-Cj :shades:
That won't happen. It's not like the American cars of old where most anything could be ordered as an option regardless of the trim line. Trim line, at least with the Asian cars (and started many years ago by Honda, btw) is how the manufacturers get the buyer to buy a more expensive car. Often the buyer will get features he doesn't care about, but the get the desired features he gets extra stuff on the trim line upgrade.
Well said.
I notice that the Camry lists stability control as an option on most options, but this is moot since the dealers in California only get the stability control on heavily optioned V6 models. No, you cannot special order it from the factory.
The only feature the Sonata lacks that I want is an AUX audio input. The new 2007 Fusion will have AUX, but no stability control. Accord has AUX on no models and stability control only on expensive V6 models.
I suppose there are ways to wire an AUX input aftermarket on a Sonata, but you can't add aftermarket stability control on the other cars.
Yes, a 2 door Fusion is on its way. This since the present Fusion/Milan are selling briskly. The 2 door will of course compete with the Accord/Camry 2door. The 3.5 V6 is also going to be available per Motor Trend...
However, if you read under thier review of the Fusion, they do give it a 4 star. But they comment on the lack of "power".. Even though it is only tenths of a second slower than cars with 20 or more HP!!????.. Bias reporting at its best... :mad:
Yet another Jealous Honda or Toyota owner?? Style my man.. pure style...go ahead take another look
http://www.carspace.com/scape2
Thanks!
Frontside windows only right? Because it looks like on the internet site I looked at it says NO tint is legal on the vehicle. This can't be true, because there are cars/trucks that come with tint from the factory.. :surprise:
i guess someone got a little cranky after reading all those camcord problems and decided to try and take out their frustration on you.
your garage makes me sick, it's so clean.
signed jealous messy garage owner.
there, now i feel better.
Well, I don't know that it's really that biased. It's not that the Fusion is underpowered, but, in all actuality, it is one of the least-powerful mainstream/midsize cars currently on-sale. 7.4 seconds to 60 for a Fusion...not bad at all. That's about what a 4-cylinder Accord 5MT did in 2003 (Car and Driver, 2003 Accord EX 5MT). Perfectly acceptable (I drive an Auto Accord and find it has plenty of power). Now though, other carmakers are stepping up their game. "Value" players like the Sonata can make a 6.6 second run to 60MPH with 234 hp, the Accord V-6 has been running 6.6 sec to 60MPH since it was released in 2003 (with the new 6MT Accord pulling a sub-6sec number...not real relevant though since few others offer a V6 and Manual combo). I imagine the new Camry should pull a 0-60 in the low 6s also (I think I have seen one test of 6.1 sec, but can't confirm, so that point is moot).
7.4 seconds isn't slow, its just that the others are faster. Here are power numbers for the top models of midsizers. I didn't stack the numbers, but the Fusion had the lowest horsepower of them all. I didn't post Passat (5.9 sec), since it carried a pricetag of $38,265. That's not mainstream midsize, IMO!
Car Type: hp rating
Acceleration time 0-60 MPH
Fusion: 221hp
7.4sec
Sonata: 234hp
6.6 sec
(NEW)Sebring: 235hp
unknown
Malibu/G6: 240hp
6.9 sec (Malibu Maxx wagon) 6.2 (G6 MT)
Accord: 244hp
6.6 sec(AT) 5.9 (MT)
Legacy: 250hp
5.3 sec (MT)
Altima: 260hp
Not found in this issue
Camry: 268hp
Not found in this issue
*All data and numbers from Car and Driver "Road Test Digest" from the May 2006 issue
It's stuck at the bottom of the pack, so lack of power is fair if you are considering the horsepower of its competitors. It's more than enough for me (I have a car with 166hp!) though. Truth be told, these cars will all accelerate safely when driven as intended. In fact, they're pretty entertaining, considering the economy they deliver.
there is a whole lot more to a car the 0-60 by some magazine, as i'm sure you know.
i don't expect a V8 RL until its next redesign. i did hear that the 07 RL will get the 3.8 allowing the TL to move up to the 3.5. it follows that the accord could get the 3.5.
Heck, my lowly (by current standards) 170 HP has plenty of power for merging into traffic or pulling out of a side street. So, for a range of 7.4 to 5.3 sec, 0 to 60 I wouldn't say the Fusion was under powered.
I'd be more concerned about highway acceleration, changing lanes, from say 50 to 70. That seems more real world to me. And my 170 HP Sonata does quite well in that regard.
Maybe the models you list are faster, but it doesn't matter to me as long as the acceleration is adequate. None of these cars seem under-powered.
scape2 has a point about MT's comment that the fusion is underpowered. As far as that making MT bias, don't you know, they have it in for the domestic makes just like everyone else.
this brings me back to another point. back in 1989 you could buy a 200 hp taurus that could perform about a 6.5 0-60 as per the same magazines as quoted earlier.
at the time, there was not a big market for them, but for some of us it is a case of 'been there, done that almost 20 years ago'.
221 hp, underpowered, oooo-kkkk. :confuse:
that was the yamaha v6 with 5 speed manual correct?
i really don't know about a honda v8 coming anytime soon. i heard honda execs in the states strongly favor the v8 for the next RL, MDX and ridgeline. but the CEO back in japan wants to develop a v10 for the new nsx. probably not a good idea to have a v10 for just one car with honda's limited resources.
I think the Accord will get the 3.2 from the TL. 270hp (current TL hp) should be enough for the Accord to top the competition in performance and fuel mileage.
I think there is market for smaller V6s that will give a smoother, more refined and quieter driving experience than you can get with a four cylinder, but better fuel economy than is possible with the new V6s that have more power for no reason other than to be able to say they have more power than the competing car.
Maybe 2.5 liter V6 and 6 speed automatic with about 180hp and mileage figures of 25/35.
selling 'fits' is good in the short run, but honda corp needs to sell more acuras, mid-size or other.