Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

driverdm

With the demand for navigation, especially the passion expressed in forums, you'd think people can't go to Mapquest as easily as they can Edmunds. :P

kdhspyder

Here you will appreciate this from the european Ins Inst.

http://www.theautochannel.com/link.html?http://www.euroncap.com/content/safety_r- - atings/introduction.php

The recommendation is that Europeans should never buy a vehicle that doesn't have Stability Control. Click Recommendation then click the links.

driverdm

Stability control will help you out in a swerving accident situation by applying brakes to individual wheels to correct the swerve. It compensates for over steering and under steering. I have been in a couple situations where me and the Mazda6 (named Kecia) have had to swerve to avoid an accident and been fine doing so. The Mazda6 dances around the road at a touch of the wheel. ESC doesn't move my buying decision. I am more worried about skidding into something on these New England roads in the winter or being hit by some fool working his navigation screen or readiing while driving. I can see why someone would want it, it just doesn't move the needle for me.

tenpin288

I know some studies have been posted, if not here someplace in Town Hall, about the benefits of ESC in accident avoidance. I think the IIHS did some work on that.

Here's a few links about ESC for you:

NHTSA

NHTSA ESC Research

IIHS Report(pdf)

baggs32

I have been in a couple situations where me and the Mazda6 (named Kecia) have had to swerve to avoid an accident and been fine doing so. The Mazda6 dances around the road at a touch of the wheel. ESC doesn't move my buying decision.

Amen. I'm not one who will add ESC as an option to a car (most of them anyway) because I don't feel it's worth it in one regardless of what the studies show. Does my SUV have it? You bet! Buy my Mazda6 does not and it's superb handling and braking more than compensate for my and other's errors.

I'd really be annoyed if I added it and it intruded too much ruining the driving experience. Hear that Toyota?! :P

bobad

I would be very surprised if the Milan/Fusion has a better resale value than Sonata. In fact, I would be astounded. "Foreign" cars have better resale value than "domestic". A 5 year-old Sonata could have a lot of warranty left, the Milan/Fusion will have none. I can't even imagine it. You'll have to show me more than half-baked theories and projections.

bobad

ESC is not intrusive at all. It doesn't even activate unless you skid. If you like to autocross, simply turn ESC off. ESC can be a life saver even for hot-shot macho drivers. If you think about it, every serious accident is totally unexpected. The NHSTA statistics are very revealing, surprised even me. The data shows that ESC can save hundreds of lives and injuries annually. Avoided accidents aren't even listed, and could be very high. I wouldn't be surprised if insurance rates go down on vehicles with ESC. ESC may even be mandatory just like seat belts some day.

backy

Actually it is very unlikely a Sonata will have any warranty left, in a resale situation, after 5 years. Unless a transferrable extended warranty was purchased.

backy

I think the "intrusive" note was regarding some test reports on the new Camry (C/D?) that complained the VSC was too intrusive. Probably too "intrusive" for these auto mag editors who run up and down mountain passes, but I would expect not too intrusive for the vast majority of the target market of the Camry.

bobad

Actually it is very unlikely a Sonata will have any warranty left, in a resale situation, after 5 years. Unless a transferrable extended warranty was purchased.

It's even less likely I would sell a car with 5 years left on the warranty!

alpha01

Yesterday, my Hyundai Sonata that I've had for 10 days (a rental from Hertz with just over 1200 miles on the odo), decided that Reverse and Park were no longer appropriate options. The gear shift is stuck in Neutral, with the option to move to drive, but that's.

It almost seems as though something is wrong with the brake interlock; the brake lights are activated all the time, regardless of pressure on the brakes. Whatever the case, I had to taxi to work and will work out the issue with Hertz later tonight. (The key cannot be removed from the ignition, either.)

This saddens me- its the fourth Sonata I've had since January and fifth Hyundai (I had a jazzy Azera two calendar weeks ago). All of them served very well, save this recent Sonata.

Any thoughts, or experience like this one?
~alpha

backy

Don't be too sad... it's a rental car, and it can be fixed.

I know some trannies have a "limp home" mode that puts it into 2nd gear--had that happen once on a Grand Caravan when a sensor went out. A problem with the brake interlock sounds right, since the key cannot be removed.

bobad

Alpha1, it sounds like it went into "safe mode". It's probably something very simple, but it could be complete computer failure?

driverdm

"I would be very surprised if the Milan/Fusion has a better resale value than Sonata. I would be astounded. "Foreign" cars have better resale value than "domestic". "

Resale values are the product of a couple factors which has been proven by numerous articles with Ford, Toyota, Honda, VW, and GM (too name a few) stating that it is the product of fleet sales and incentives that have the most affect on resale values. Also included in that is demand on used vehicles. Whether a car is domestic r foreign has nothing really to do with it. What has happened to make it seem that way is that foreign cars usually have less incentive, less fleet sales, and higher demand than domestics. The Sonata has had far higher fleet sales and incentives than the Fusion. In fact, I would dare say that the year old Fusion resale is higher than the year old Sonata right now because of the high incentives. If you bought your new Sonata when it came out last year it was $20K, now the same car could be had last month for $17K. The used car retail has to be under $17K for the car you paid $20K for or you'd just buy a new one. The Fusion doesn't have those issues and right now, demand is very close to supply. It had $1K rebate when it came out and it has $1K rebate now.

It's not as much theories and projections as it is how the used car market works. If you can't believe in Ford and GM, then believe in VW and Honda who have all said the same thing.

driverdm

Too piggy back off of backy. Not just the Camry review faults Toyota's VSC but any review of any Lexus product has that as a weakness. There are many people who test drove both the BMW and the IS and felt the difference.

I don't know if ESC only comes on when you are skidding. Doesn't it also come on in heavy cornering?

Me and Kecia danced around a Tahoe this morning, even in the rain. I think ESC is a great feature but it just doesn't move the needle for me. Yes, the insurance institute's findings are great, but liek I said before there is all types of new technology that is great on safety in tests. Like the brakes that brake for you if they detect an eminant accident, or the pedals that move, or several other new safety technology. It just doesn't move the needle for me anymore. Side air bags, now that is something that could move the needle. Like I said, I fear more someone running into me then me swerving into an accident.

backy

People who buy a brand-new model, whether it be a Sonata or Camry or whatever, at near full price should expect to take a bath when they sell it. That is what they paid to be the first on their block with the latest-and-greatest.

I just laughed to myself when I heard about some dealers selling the all-new Sonata and then the new Azera for list price or more. And some folks bought at that price! The wiser buyers waited.

alpha01

I am sad though, b/c its an enjoyable car to drive and ride in (not saying its sporty, but it is enjoyable), and its a MAJOR inconvience. Even if it is in "limp-home" mode, the issue was only discovered (by my colleague, I actually wasnt driving it) upon parking in our corporate apartment garage... head in... against a concrete wall. No reverse leaves very few options except a tow truck... I just dont have time for the pain of coordinating Hertz's efforts!

:P

But yea, glad its not mine.

kdhspyder

I don't know if ESC only comes on when you are skidding. Doesn't it also come on in heavy cornering?

No, unless you lose control. The professional drivers can live on the edge of 'loss of control' but not your everyday driver with family in the car.

bobad

driverdm, That's a whole lot of words to explain a simple thing like resale value. I don't think the average used car buyer would have any idea about what you are talking about. If I were a used car salesman or appraiser, I would take all of your wisdom into consideration. But I only need to sell 1 car every 10 years, and it's not that hard to get the price you want. If a car is clean, looks nice, drives nice, and has a solid reputation, it will fetch a fair price. The last car I sold was 11 years old, and worth practically nothing according to "conventional wisdom". I got a very good price for it because the owner was pleased that it was a "1 owner car and well taken care of", ran perfectly, and looked very nice. I have even been bugged by people for 2-3 years asking me to "let me know when you want to sell that car". Oops! That's a lot of words. Sorry! :blush:

baggs32

No, unless you lose control. The professional drivers can live on the edge of 'loss of control' but not your everyday driver with family in the car.

That's not entirely true. Some systems have been noted as coming on too early and ruining some fun. Even the system in our '06 Explorer has been harped on about that but it's an SUV, what do they expect?

Someone else said you can always turn it off. Well that's not always true either. Some systems still remain on even when you supposedly deactivated them. Toyota comes to mind again IIRC.

Maybe it's because of where and how I drive, I just don't see the need for ESC in most cars. Side air bags and curtains, ABS, door beams, I'll gladly pay for.

alpha01

C/D's Short Take on the TCH. I think overall observed MPG of 33 is pretty decent, given their affinity to driving hard.

Stability control, ABS, airbags/curtains... all standard on the TCH.

http://www.caranddriver.com/shortroadtests/11035/short-take-review-2007-toyota-c- amry-hybrid.html

~alpha

cxc

Hyundai Azera Wins AutoPacific 2006 Vehicle Satisfaction Award for Large Cars -- Also Top-Ranked Car: "The satisfaction results for the all-new Hyundai Azera prove that Hyundai is serious about selling top class products. In its first year on the market, Azera achieves not only a class win, but is the highest scoring passenger car ahead of vaunted Premium Luxury Cars like the Lexus LS, Jaguar XJ and Mercedes S-Class. The fact that these cars are twice the price of an Azera is just icing on the cake."

Azera is a better deal than either Accord V6 or Camry V6.

badgerfan

And Mercury Milan wins top mid sized car in the same AutoPacific 2006 Vehicle Satisfaction.

Azera might compete in the top end of this class on a price basis, but it is considered a large car, not a mid size.

thegraduate

Azera is a better deal than either Accord V6 or Camry V6.

To you, anyway. Some people value economy and acceleration over size, and are willing to pay for it. (22MPG vs 19MPG and 0-60 about a sec. quicker in the Camry). This isn't my particular view, but I'm playing devil's advocate.

steve333

That means nothing. All it means is that people who buy Hyundais need to convince everyone that they aren't fools. Yeh, my cars the greatest, love those Hyundais. Give me a break.

By the way, you want to know how good a car is, ask a mechanic. My mechanic says Hyundai's are crap and he had one on his lift and showed me a part of the steering system that had to be replaced. He said it was junk. he also noted that the customer refused to bring it to Hyndai to have it replaced so they came to him and paid him even though it was under warranty.

What car did he recommend? The Chevy Impala!

bobad

Ask a mechanic? Are you saying mechanics are smarter than the average person? Or are you saying mechanics are less biased than the average person? As an X-mechanic, I have known dozens, and a lot of them became mechanics because they weren't exactly, how can I say it politely... college material? Most young mechanics I knew had 1 favorite badge, and the rest were crap. The Azera may not be the legend that Lexus is, but it certainly isn't "crap".

backy

Interesting... a survey of thousands of owners means nothing, but the opinion of one mechanic means a lot. And his idea of the best car in this class is the Chevy Impala. Okee-doke.

cxc

Yes, people value cars differently:

2007 BMW 530i - 19/27 mpg; 0-60 mph 6.7s
2007 Camry V6 - 22/31 mpg; 0-60 mph 6.5s

jimmy81

And you'll have the usual people on this thread (the you're not allowed to say anything disparaging against Hyundais - you must like and accept them!) tell you how silly you are and your opinion should be discounted.

I don't think Hyundais are crap, but I'd never buy one. But I like the Impala, but would never buy one either. No brainer - buy Hondas.

explorerx4

which one wins the ugly contest?