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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread



  • hraohrao Posts: 78
    Avalon shows dent in Toyota quality
    Avalon shows dent in Toyota quality
    Fixes sought for 'problematic vehicle'
    Alan Seider has owned 11 Toyotas since 1982, but his 2006 Avalon likely will be his last. He says quality glitches have bedeviled his Toyota sedan, which he has driven less than 6,000 miles since he bought it last July. His dealer could not solve the car's problems. story
  • choe13choe13 Posts: 348
    Kdhspyder i'm sorry bro, your the only person in this forum that may feel that way.

    The azera is almost as good as mercedez design in terms of exterior lines
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    These all seem very sound and it confirms that Ford's core midsized retail market is about 15-20K units monthly. For them this seems like a good sustainable balance in order to make the vehicle profitable.

    Here's a question. The fleets?

    GM says it cut back dramatically this past month on fleet sales. Ford is planning to drop the T/S in the Fall, 15K units monthly. So where do the fleets go to get their units? I guess they will just have to bite the bullet and pay more to get a F/M/Z rather than steal a Taurus.
  • choe13choe13 Posts: 348
    I own a protoge mp3 and i bought it because it is amazing.

    What was mazda before that?? pretty much mediocre. People bought the cars cuz of the sporty appeal and design but not much else. The Protoge and miatas were the cars that saved the companies name(with some help with ford of course) And now the mazda 3 and 6 are respected cars.

    So hyundai has the sonata, tucson and azera to do the job the protoge had to, it will be a similiar mazda story

    Mazda 3 is def a winner(better than civic, corolla) but the mazda 6 needs a better engine and better interior tightness and quality for its class. its almost their though

    I rather buy a Sonata, Mazda 6 than a hondayota any day. I can't trust cars with shady braking, something the mazda 6 and sonata have no problems with
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    I think you posted this in the wrong forum. This is not the Hyundai forum.

    There might be 3 of you in total who are in love with the Azera looks but since it's all subjective your opinions mean nothing ... nor does mine.
  • choe13choe13 Posts: 348
    Fleet sales are a brilliant way to get your first year cars advertised don't you think?? Just ask alpha01 who was a hyunai anti fan and a accord man and now can't believe how good the sonata and azera(more so) are. His rental i'll bet you would entice him if he were to buy a new mid size car to get a sonatazera now. (alpha01 i know you are amazed by the azera and hyundais capabilities if you are reading this)

    There is no point of bashing fleet sales, and caring about how much profits each companies make(thats not the consumer has to care about). The f150 is prob one of the greatest pickups made, and it is prob big time favorites of hertz an d budget etc. It doesn't mean its a bad pickup, actually one of the best. Your fleet theory is not legit with that
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    I can't trust cars with shady braking, something the mazda 6 and sonata have no problems with

    Agreed.. I can't buy cars with shady long term reliability therefore all the Hyundais are out until 2012 or so.

    Same logic.
  • kwonc71kwonc71 Posts: 245
    Its funny you gave me a hard time about me speaking broken English last time. I also seen your other post that complains others not spell right. Its about time you get the lesson.

    BTW, a sentence should start with capital letter.
    "yeah, i get lazy and dont spell check sometimes." is incorrect.
  • choe13choe13 Posts: 348
    how about your toyotas short term reliability these days?

    your comebacks have no substance , just like your car of choice toyota sorry to say my friend. Ask them to make some basic decent brakes , it will save your life one day
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160

    This is the amateurs strategy. See GM and ask them if it works. What it does is it gives everyone who rents a vehicle that 100 other people have gotten sick in it, smoked in it, had sex in it, bumped it into garages and parking curbs; abused the engines and brakes and dials and switches.

    THIS is what Hyundai wants new prospective buyers to see? Are you nuts? Again look at GM and Ford. Look at the Taurus especially. Fleet sales ruined what was the No 1 car in N America in the late 80's/90's.

    But as I said it's the amateurs strategy. It's just been proven to be worthless as a primary means to move units.
  • choe13choe13 Posts: 348
    If i was in a trashed mercedez benz or acura tl as a rental car, i dont' care if it has drink spilled etc, scratches whatever, as a driver i know its a good car even with all that crap dumb drivers do to rental cars. The taurus however even if u wax it a million times, armor all the interior, put some nice freshner, it still can't save its mediocre self. It was just a big car, decent highway car AND thats it

    Maybe hyundai wants to let consumer know how durable their cars can be. Like i said the exposure has been been a positive outcome. Hyundai knows once u step inside, it will be a shocker
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    You'll need to be clearer. Nothing made sense in your statement.

    But as I said you have your opinion and I have mine and both have no value whatsoever. The market does speak though. It seems that more people hold my worthless opinion than yours.

    OH, I guess you omitted to notice that the Sonata's sales went down this month ( OUCH !! ) while the 4 Honda Toyota vehicles were up? Ahhh the market speaks again.

    In 5-6 years you can come back and likely then your vehicles will be on an even par. They might even reach 50% of a Corolla's sales by then.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    I also seen your other post

    It's "I have...", or, in contraction form, "I've seen your other post..."

    And you are dogging me over a letter?

    Forgive me, I didn't realize one lower case letter made sentences hard to read. I'm not the only one having issues understanding you (judging from what kdhspyder has said). It's not personal. If it was personal, I wouldn't respond at all because it would be deleted in no time anyway.

    Back to the cars, shall we?

    Sorry...I wasn't trying to be snotty about it when i corrected you weeks ago, it was a clarity issue, and still is for me when I try reading what you write. I guess it's a personal fault of a broadcasting major.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Things are getting entirely too heated in here.

    We are supposed to be comparing the features and attributes of the vehicles under discussion. Somehow this discussion has devolved into personal sniping, insults, attacks, and other inappropriate posts which are not helpful to those trying to make a purchasing decision.

    With apologies to the few who have not contributed to this melee, and there are a few of you, we're going to take a time out now.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    All rested up and cooled off, we'll try this again. We just need to refrain from the personal comments and the taking (and giving) offense when opinions differ.

    It's not that hard ... all we have to do is turn the temperature down on the posts and stick to the cars, avoiding any personal comments. Let's give it a try, okay?
  • mf15mf15 Posts: 158
    Great this is one of my favorite discussions, glad to see it back on-line. That being said I am looking forward to the 07 Altima. I love driving my son's 05 3.5 SE but I would like him to trade it for an 07 with all of the safety features that could not be easily found on an Altima with manual trans. I think I will like the 07 enough to perhaps buy one myself. It might be a bigger car than I really need, a TSX would be nice but I may want more power than the TSX provides. Old Mike
  • tinatinatinatina Posts: 388
    I concur. Hopefully the Toyota groupies and the Hyundia groupies can have a cease fire and stop with the monthly sales, politics, etc. :) Lets get to talking about the new Altima, next generation Accord, revisions to the Sonata for 2007, and the Avalon, etc.

    This is my favorite thread at Edmunds, so please don't close it.
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,229
    You don't have to lease to have this benefit. In fact, owning gives you more flexibility at trade/sale time. If you get a decent deal on the car you buy, and it traditionally holds its value (Honda, BMW etc.), at trade time you'll do OK, and you can get that other vehicle.....and not be held to the lessor's timetable (like the 24'th or 36'th month) as to when to change your ride.

    I'm well aware of that. However that method forces you to choose from a small group of vehicles which ruins all of the fun. :) I'm not looking to be frugal or make the "smart choice". I'm a big fan of the whole driving experience and need to be able to choose from the whole.

    Look at the cars being compared in this thread. Some hold their value very well, some moderately well, and some just tank after a few years. I have to say, I'm not a big fan of the two at the top and therefore I'll continue to lease.
  • seniorjoseseniorjose Posts: 277
    I didn't see anything wrong with the cloth in the Accord EX. In fact, I have yet to hear anyone complain about the quality of the cloth in the Accord. I have seen 10-13 year old Accords with 200,000 miles without a rip or tear in the seat.

    Quality failures on Hyundai interiors are showing up. The 06 Sonata leather seats seem to be "scaling", discoloring and losing their color treatment already. See the Hyundai forum. This is a decades old problem with poor leather preparation. This should not be hard to fix once some leather quality experts are hired by Hyundai...evidently their suppliers are not experienced in the prepping of quality leather products...not a major problem. It might be better if current Sonata purchasers stick to the cloth seats for the time being. But, then that is the reason for the long warranty in the first place.
  • njeraldnjerald Posts: 688
    Just one person mentioned this!!!
  • seniorjoseseniorjose Posts: 277
    "Fleet sales are a brilliant way to get your first year cars advertised don't you think??"

    GM announced this week that they will no longer sharply discount sales of their fleet autos, they expect that costs of the autos bought for rental car agencies will rise sharply...BLOOMBERG TV NEWS. I wonder if Ford will follow suit!
  • seniorjoseseniorjose Posts: 277
    Did anyone notice that the Honda Accord has 38 pages listed for their 2003-2006 complaints and Hyundai was already up to 58 pages of Maintenance and Repair complaints...hmmm, now to check out Toyota Camry, Mazda 6, and Altima....interesting!
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,906
    You are comparing apples and oranges--the Sonata "Problems and Solutions" discussion (which dates back to August 2001 and has about 1100 posts) and the Accord "Repair and Maintenance" discussion, which cover different topics. The comparable topic for the Accord is "Honda Accord Quality Control Issues", which has over 3000 posts in the same timeframe (since August 2001).

    Yes, that is very interesting.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    We've been around this block before. Numbers of posts in any given discussion do not indicate anything that is statistically significant. You can't assume every post represents a problem, you can't assume that one person hasn't made 50 or 100 posts about one single problem and most importantly, you can't assume that the numbers of people posting in any of our discussions represents a statistically accurate segment of the car-owning population. In fact, my money is on the fact that in no way do we represent a statistically accurate segment for a number of reasons - not all car-owners post on the internet, for one thing, unhappy people are more likely to find a place to vent than are happy ones, for another.

    In any case, we're not going there.

    We're going to compare the features and attributes of the vehicles in this segment, we're not going to compare numbers of posts. :-)
  • gefiltegefilte Posts: 21
    after reading countless forums on the attributes of midsize sedans. i finally spent a few grand more and got myself a 06 accord se. couldnt be happier.i guess there is some underlying reason why this vehicle costs significantly more than the sonata, for instance.its not about air bag count but about real world driving and ownership experience :D ;)
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,906
    And also a lot about brand equity. But that is a verboten topic.

    Hope you enjoy your new Accord for many years!
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    "And also a lot about brand equity. But that is a verboten topic."

    Thank goodness for "brand equity" and consumers that have memories lasting longer than the latest fad in kids clothes.

    The first time I saw a Hyundai is when a business associate bought an Excel in the early 90's. He was an attorney and could afford anything, but being from NY and single, he preferred subways and taxis and only drove the car on weekends. Even under minimal use, that Excel began to self destruct in about 3 years. The paint on the hood and roof began to peel. Numerous mechanical problems surfaced. My associate, a corporate attorney, contacted a law school buddy in private practice and they filed and won a class action suit for several hundred thousand dollars. Others followed.

    Nearly two decades earlier, back in 1977, I had almost purchased a Honda Civic CCVC as my first car. (Went with a Datsun instead). I still remember how tiny and spartan those early Civics were, but they were pretty well built for their time and instead of inspiring lawsuits, inspired an entire generation to take Honda quality seriously, especially as an alternative to low quality Ford and GM products.

    Hyundai seems to be trying hard to reverse their image. And perhaps someday they will succeed. But I think the long term success of Honda is well deserved and, if there wasn't such a thing as "brand equity" no one would be incentivized to strive for excellence from day one. Hyundai entered the US market with junk - and whatever challenges they now face with respect to image are very well deserved. You are certainly free to turn a blind eye to the past, but given Hyundai's recent corporate transgressions, I'm not so sure they have evolved from it.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Posts: 21,308
    >Nearly two decades earlier, back in 1977, I had almost purchased a Honda Civic CCVC as my first car. (Went with a Datsun instead). I still remember how tiny and spartan those early Civics were, but they were pretty well built for their time and instead of inspiring lawsuits, inspired an entire generation to take Honda quality seriously, especially as an alternative to low quality Ford and GM products.

    I disagree about the inspiration method of the small, little economical cars of that era. They were called econoboxes because they were economical to buy (minimal complications-no power steering power brakes power windows?), and they got great gas mileage making them economical as daily drivers. The Honda CVCC required premium fuel. A friend had one in Charleston when I would visit. It died if you drove through standing rainwater on roads after the daily rain storms. Wouldn't restart for hours. It had some other foibles that was a typical problem of many cars of the era so I won't try to recall them. He dumped it for a pickup truck, IIRC.

    The small cars of the 80s were just that. Small for 4 people or at least two comfortably. SMall wheels and tires for saving original cost. No PS PB PW etc. A basic car. And they got good mileage with the 4 cyl manual trans. That based the reputation. Then they started adding features and increasing the size to move into the larger car market.

    2015 Cruze 2LT, 2014 Malibu 2LT, 2008 Cobalt 2LT

  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,906
    Have you owned or even driven a recent Hyundai, especially the Sonata or Azera? They are as far from those Excels as one could possibly imagine. While Hyundai has been laser-focused on quality the past six years, it's been companies like Toyota and Honda that have struggled with major quality issues in their mid-sized cars. So you can stay stuck in the past if you want; others are keeping up with what is happening in today's automotive world and are taking advantage of current realities to get excellent cars like the Sonata for much less money than the HonYotas.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    1) Your story from the past doesn't quite add up.
    2) You are in the miniority as far as not accepting the fact Hyundai has far evolved from the past.
    3) Try moving away from ignorance and appreciate good competitions.
    4) Let's get back on topic and talk about cars before the mods lock this up for good.
This discussion has been closed.