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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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  • mfletou1mfletou1 Member Posts: 508
    Has nothing to do with how fast a car is.

    My Malibu Maxx has a 3.5L 200 HP V6. Its 1.1L bigger than the Accord engine. The Accord is at least as quick, if not quicker. So's my Camry.

    Looking at the numbers (test results), it looks to me like an Accord 4 cyl can run with a Fusion V6. That's really all that matters in that particular debate.

    By the way, just to follow my point, if I were to take the bowtie off my Malibu Maxx and replace it with a Cadillac badge, something would feel very, very wrong.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    How about the transmission?

    Now that you mention it, some cars such as the Honda Fit Sport with AT do have transmission controls on the steering wheel. From reports I've read they work pretty slick. So that feature may come sooner than you think to mid-sized sedans.
  • badgerfanbadgerfan Member Posts: 1,565
    If you want to believe Edmunds V-6 sedans (automatic transmissions all) comparisons:

    0-30 Fusion 2.9 sec, Accord 3.1
    0-45 Fusion 5.0 sec, Accord 5.1
    0-60 Fusion 7.7 sec, Accord 7.6
    0-75 Fusion 11.2 sec, Accord 10.9
    1/4 mile Fusion 15.7 sec at 90 mph
    1/4 mile Accord 15.6 sec at 91.4 mph

    Basically I call that a wash. Fusion slightly better off the line, Accord slightly better at higher speed.

    In any event, no way will the 4 banger Accord hang with the V-6 Fusion. If it does, then no one should be buying a V-6 Accord as they are getting nothing for their money!
  • badgerfanbadgerfan Member Posts: 1,565
    Shut this discussion down by posting some facts, for a change? :D
  • luvmbootyluvmbooty Member Posts: 271
    In my opinion, I would buy a Five hundred over the Fusion. Your getting 8 more feet passenger volume and 5 more feet of trunk. 17 inch tires instead of 16. Painted alloy wheels instead of steel. Fusion has 18 more ponies under the hood but the Five hundred has better torque 207@4500, Fusion 205@4800.

    ABS comes standard for Five Hundred. Crash test scores are perfect for Five Hundred.

    Bothe are getting the $1,000 cash back. I think you could buy a Five Hundred for $1,000 or less more than the Fusion.
  • badgerfanbadgerfan Member Posts: 1,565
    Five Hundred is much bigger, so really is not a midsize vehicle. Same can be said for Impala, to a lesser degree as it's interior and trunk space don't match up.

    Want to muddy the waters even more? We just bought a new Grand Caravan SE with Stow and Go option and with another $2k preferred equipment package for only $19555. Over $7k off MSRP. EPA mileage 19 city 26 highway. It won't blow your socks off acceleration wise, but with the seats folded down you could nearly stick one of these midsizers inside it!

    I hang around this discussion some though, as the minivan is primarily my wife's car. The next purchase will likely be a midsize sedan, though a few years down the road.
  • mfletou1mfletou1 Member Posts: 508
    Here are the numbers I was using, from MSN Autos:

    http://autos.msn.com/research/vip/Spec_Glance.aspx?year=2006&make=Honda&model=Ac- cord&trimid=-1

    Honda Accord sedan - I4 2.4L (166 hp) 5A + ABS 7.91 16.22 90.80

    Honda Accord sedan EX - V6 3.0L (244 hp) 5A + ABS 7.80 15.88 93.70

    http://autos.msn.com/research/vip/Spec_Glance.aspx?year=2006&make=Ford&model=Fus- ion&trimid=-1

    Ford Fusion SEL V6 - 3.0L DOHC (221 hp) 6A + ABS 7.47 15.78 92.30

    Ford Fusion SEL - I4 2.3L (160 hp) 5A + ABS 9.36 17.27 82.50

    http://autos.msn.com/research/vip/Spec_Glance.aspx?year=2007&make=Toyota&model=C- amry&trimid=-1

    Toyota Camry XLE - V6 3.5L (268 hp) 6A + ABS 6.70 15.05 98.80 140

    So you see they had the Accord 4 cyl just about a half second slower than the Fusion. Which to ME, means that the Accord 4 cyl will run with the Fusion.

    You are correct--pure 0-60 acceleration is not a reason to buy Accord V6. That's how good the Accord 4 cyl. is. Once you get up to higher speed, or talk about passing power, the Accord V6 shows itself to be quicker, but its not a huge difference 0-60.

    So make sure you are paying attention when you drag race your Fusion against an Accord 4 cyl--a half second isn't much time for the Accord to make up on you!
  • badgerfanbadgerfan Member Posts: 1,565
    Well, Edmunds for I-4 Honda Accord automatic had it at 0-60 in 9.5 seconds, 1/4 mile in 16.8 seconds, at 82.8 MPH.

    I believe the MSN information is overoptimistic for the 4 cylinder Accord automatic. Typos can and do creep into some of this data.
  • autoboy16autoboy16 Member Posts: 992
    The fusion's 0-60 is right but its EXTREMELY BUZZY AND LOUD getting there. Fit and finish goes to the accord. Passat and Camry are ruling the 0-60 for now though :P ...
  • mfletou1mfletou1 Member Posts: 508
    The MSN data is actually from Consumer Reports. I HIGHLY doubt Consumer Reports data is overrun with typos--in all three tested areas, no less!.

    I've found major discrepancies between Edmunds and others. There's no chance their Camry Hybrid numbers are correct, I think most of us who own that car would agree. R&T and C&D have it much quicker than Edmunds (over a 2 second differential).
  • cxccxc Member Posts: 122
    Agreed. Do not get fooled by HP. The average torque determines how fast you get from 0 – 60 mph. Fact is fact.

    BMW 330: 255HP6600 rpm, 220 ft-lbs2750 rpm, average torque= 0.080 ft-lbs/rpm (5.7s)
    Sonata :235 HP6000rpm, 226 ft-lbs3500 rpm, average torque=0.065 ft-lbs/rpm (7.3s)
    Camry: 268 HP6200 rpm, 248 ft-lbs4700 rpm, average torque = 0.053 ft-lbs/rpm (6.7s)
    Ford Fusion 221HP6250 205 ft-lbs4800rpm, average torque = 0.043 ft-lbs/rpm (7.5s)
    Accord: 244HP6224rpm, 211 ft-lbs5000 rpm, average torque = 0.041 ft-lbs/rpm (7.8s)
    Accord: 166HP5800rpm, 166 ft-lbs4000rpm, average torque = 0.040 ft-lbs/rpm (7.9s)

    Accord V6 is not really much better than Accord I4 unless you get the engine to very high rpm over 5000 rpm, which most people never do.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    What is the average torque rating?

    Is it the 220/2750 giving 0.080?

    What's really needed is the graph of the torque across the rpm as the horizontal axis. You'll see the difference. It's available for GM motors. I don't see one listed, however.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • njeraldnjerald Member Posts: 689
    The average torque determines how fast you get from 0 – 60 mph. Fact is fact.

    What a ridiculous statement! Must be Elbonian engineering!

    Vehicle weight (HP/weight ratio), transmission and final gear ratios, tires and traction are as important or more important than pure engine torque.
  • badgerfanbadgerfan Member Posts: 1,565
    CXC's information proves absolutely nothing. You could have a theoretical engine that produces really high torque at one particular engine speed and then drops off a cliff on both higher and lower speeds. It would perform horribly. Fact is unless one has complete engine torque-speed curves, then knows exactly how the transmission shifts under wide open throttle from a dead stop,knows what the transmission speeds are, knows all the friction factors in the drivetrain and drag, etc, etc, you are not going to be able to predict performance.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Not gonna doubt that, and you'll notice I stayed out of the argument there. Although, if we are being technical, a 2003 EX Accord 5MT ran 0-60 in 7.5 seconds...right there with the Fusion. The average driver would be quicker in the Ford (and by average I mean the 99% of the buying public who doesn't smoke clutches trying to launch the best acceleration numbers!) :)

    160 horsepower is plenty sufficient to move in today's 80MPH world. If I can do it in my old 1996 130 hp Accord, and I haven't been squashed or burned up my automatic tranny yet, I think 160 hp is just icing on the cake.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    Average torque is a good indicator, but only 1 of several indicators that determine which car wins at 0-60. Curb weight, overall torque, final drive ratio, tires, suspension, and 1st to 2nd gear ratio spread can be just as important.
  • jimmy81jimmy81 Member Posts: 170
    The Fit has paddle shifters, nothing more than that. So does a Ferrari for that matter.

    I rarely use the steering wheel controls on my car either. You have to take your eyes off the road to use those as well, so that argument is kinda lame. Definitely a gimmick. So are paddle shifters.
  • 1997montez341997montez34 Member Posts: 202
    I own a 2003 Accord LX 4cyliner auto. I have driven it 68,000 miles since I bought it new, so I have a good feel for what this car will do. I test drove a Fusion SE V6. There is no way the 4 cylinder Accord matches the V6 Fusion. The Fusion is no rocket, but is certainly a lot stronger thana 4 cyl Accord, just as I would expect it to be.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    Let's put to rest this nonsense about an Accord I4 being able to keep up with a Accord V6.

    0 to 60 (Fastest published time):

    Camry V6 auto: 6.1s (R&T)
    Accord V6 auto: 6.6s (C&D)
    Sonata V6 auto: 6.6s (C&D)
    Fusion V6 auto: 7.4s (C&D)
    Accord I4 manual: 7.5s (R&T)
    Accord I4 auto: 7.9s (MSN/CR)

    Please update if you have a faster published result for any of the above.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I rarely use the steering wheel controls on my car either. You have to take your eyes off the road to use those as well, so that argument is kinda lame. Definitely a gimmick.

    I'd have to disagree, at least with the controls in my Accord. I've had the car for less than 9,000 miles, and I know exactly which rocker switch/button my finger is on just by feeling. It is nice to me FOR THAT REASON that you don't have to take eyes off the road OR hands off of the wheel. If you look closely, you will see the ridges on the buttons/switches. Each has a different pattern (one has a single ridge=volume/cruise while other has several raised dots, like braille="cancel" and "CHannel"), one that is easy to discern, making quick learning of the wheel controls.

    It would make me feel better to see commuters using such buttons, because it means they don't have to drive with their knee because a cell phone is in the other and the volume is too loud to hear the phone conversation! They can use the one good hand and keep it on the wheel while turning the volume down.

    image

    It's easy to me. Outside (farthest from hub) buttons are most commonly used...Volume (left) and Accelerate/Decelerate (right). Inwards is channel changing rocker (left) and "cancel" for the cruise.

    I don't have NAV, so I don't have the voice-activation buttons shown in the picture, so I can't comment on those realistically.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    I can't believe this hasn't been posted yet. :confuse: Several posts back it was asked if Ford will go "head2head" with Hyundai's warranty. Well, it's not quite as good as Hyundai's but it's better than the others now.

    Ready for that Fusion yet m1miata? ;)

    New Ford warranty for 2007 and beyond.
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    Let's put to rest this nonsense about an Accord I4 being able to keep up with a Accord V6.

    You took the words right outta my mouth.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    I'm with ya grad on the steering wheel buttons. I use them all the time in my Mazda6 and never have to look away from the road to control any audio function. I don't know if the Accord has a "Mode" button like the 6 but I love that one! It cycles through the FM/AM and CD modes. The only thing missing is a disc change button (you can change the tracks on the current disk) but I don't use that one all that often. The "Mute" button is handy too. Especially in drive-thru windows.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Actually, if your 6 is like the 3 I ride in occasionally, the steering wheel controls are almost identical, with the exception of the lack of a "mute" button for Honda. I think I'll live though! :)

    image

    image

    VERY similar designs. It works, though, so there's nothing wrong with that.
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    It would make me feel better to see commuters using such buttons, because it means they don't have to drive with their knee because a cell phone is in the other

    That's why you need a Hands Free Link for a bluetooth phone found in a TL, and soon to be found in probably every car in this comparo.

    Now that's a great feature. The steering wheel controls for audio and HVAC are gimmicky to me. The audio controls are 6" from my right hand when I drive. Yea I gotta take my eyes off the road for 1 sec. sometimes, but I guess I'm a wild man or something, living on the edge.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    The steering wheel controls for audio and HVAC are gimmicky to me. The audio controls are 6" from my right hand when I drive. Yea I gotta take my eyes off the road for 1 sec. sometimes, but I guess I'm a wild man or something, living on the edge.

    Climate control I don't need on the wheel (rarely adjusted by me), but I've seen some bad things happen in 1 sec looks off the road. I once hit an 18-wheeler tire on I-59 as I looked over my shoulder to change lanes. It ended up doing some damage to my car, and it was technically my fault for looking away from the road. Luckily, that was in my old 96...that poor thing has seen a lot over the years!
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Wow- all those buttons, you're ready for Formula1 racing. :D

    What on earth do people have to talk about so much these days. I see people in car, in restaurants, bathrooms, on the street, heck maybe in their showers (don't personally know), all using cell phones. I take it they are slaves to this little device. If radiation from phones is harmful, hospital should be full in around tens years time.

    I would personally like to see people driving their cars and not chatting so much on phones. Turning down the radio while in town so they can hear what is going on around them is important, yet rarely done. I take it cars are now rolling homes, as I see people brushing their teeth, eating, and drinking. I will leave the back seat action out of this conversation. Actually, you see about everything going on, but driving.

    As for radio controls on the steering wheel, I guess it is interesting, and it may be of value to those in need of changing channels and CDs a lot. I don't have a CD player, but did get a MP3 player, so I got continuous music, when needed on longer trips.

    Cruise control on the steering wheel makes perfect sense. Haven't had cruise for a number on years though. Traffic is pretty tight most of the time anyway. Right foot is my only cruise at this time.
    -Loren
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Go with buick...we all need buttons on every rim of the wheel! The only other car I've seen that comes close to this is the Acura RL (new model)

    2005 Buick Lesabre
    image

    Acura RL
    image
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    You have to look to left and right, in the car, and out, to keep sharp, and eyes working. There is no way you would want to have a fixation on the road while driving. It is good for the eyes to look close, then far now and then. And you will not get into a trance by staring dead ahead. Actually, it is possible to simply pile into the back of a truck if you go into la-la land while staring at the end too long.

    Looking over the shoulder is what they say to always do. I am not so sure, as in your case, it is always best. If the mirrors are properly adjusted for the blind spots, and the center mirror is giving you the read to the back, it should cover all bases. When going on to a freeway however, the angle of approach is such that a couple of looks over shoulder makes perfect sense, along with the mirrors. I look to the right as well, for an out if needed.
    -Loren
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Yes, i was on a curved (lightly) portion of interstate moving with afternoon traffic (probably 70-80MPH - a 70MPH zone), and I ALWAYS look over my shoulder, and still do, when changing lanes. That was just an anomoly that kinda pushed my point about looking off of the road briefly. :)
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Hey-hey, it is looking better. Bold Moves there Ford. Well not bold, but OK, a move in the right direction! Looks like the second best warranty around now. Will make the Fusion/Milan and the FiveHunderd or CrownVic better choices. Crown Vic, is usually one of those great used car buys anyway.

    Yeah, I think if within a couple thousand of the Sonata, the Fusion may sell well. Sonata will still have longer warranty and stability control ( I keep hands on steering wheel for control + foot on gas ;) ) I can see those liking the Ford style more, and for whatever reason, possibly paying a grand or two more.

    Side note: Chrysler is down to 3 yr. warranty. GM starts at 3 yr, but they have 4yr, and well (your warranty may vary depending on car chosen)
    -Loren
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Doesn't the RL have a hand brake. Tell me it is not a foot emergency brake - please! That LeSabre, by the way, has a nice clean look about it. Hate the floor brakes though. Dang release cable broke on my Olds 98 one day. But then again, what didn't break on GM cars in the 80's :blush:

    Looks like the tach, while not really needed, on the LeSabre, may be easier to read than on the New Stangs. Retro instruments - yuk. I think they take some things from the past, make them look racier, while becoming impossible to use. And this fake aluminum is out of hand - please, end the madness!
    -Loren
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    This is off-topic, but your comment about cell phones is such a hot button with me, I can't help it. :blush:

    I was in a very upscale restaurant (read quite expensive!) about 6 months ago. We had a glorious dinner and all in all it was just an over-the-top evening. As we were leaving, I spotted a couple whose dinner was plated in front of them. They both had those ear-wrap-around phone things and they BOTH were talking to others on the danged phone!!

    Wow. Why even come to the restaurant with each other. Better yet, if you're going to jab at your very delicious and expensive dinner while you are distracting yourself with some unseen person in your ear, why not go to McDonalds??
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I would've responded to your post sooner, but I was on the phone...:)
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    Yes. They should have had the courtesy to just text message back and forth with the other people. That way they have time in between to converse with their dinner companion. Just Kidding.

    I thought you were going to say the phones rang during dinner. That's my pet peeve. I glare and stare when that happens other than Wendy's type places.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    New format, eh?
  • ontopontop Member Posts: 279
    It's one thing to be on the phone DURING DINNER! But I'd bet ya those people made sure everyone in the restaurant also heard every word of their conversation.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    It's one thing to be on the phone DURING DINNER! But I'd bet ya those people made sure everyone in the restaurant also heard every word of their conversation.

    Well of course! Otherwise, one caller couldn't hear over the other one!
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    The only significant way the new Ford/Mercury warranty is better than HonYota's is in the roadside assistance. And the new Ford warranty is still waaaay behind Hyundai's, Kia's, and Mitsubishi's warranties: two fewer years of comprehensive coverage, and five fewer years of powertrain coverage.

    But it's an improvement. Maybe it will force GM and DC to improve their warranties.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,602
    I drive in heavy traffic and I don't like to take my eyes off the road.

    Surely you must take your eyes off the road to check your gauges (including speedometer) and mirrors. It doesn't take me any longer to glance at the radio or climate controll up/down buttons than it takes to check my mirors or gauges.

    The steering wheel controls are a minor convenience. If someone knows which button is which, that same person probably knows the layout of the buttons on the dashboard. In fact, people may have to take their eyes off the road in order to push the desired button on the steering wheel.

    But if the traffic/driving conditions are so severe, maybe the driver shouldn't be too concerned about the radio station or a couple degrees difference on the climate control.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Check out the times for the Accord EX V6 for 03 (msn auto). Less hp, yet quicker times. 0-60...6.84, 1/4 mile...15.34. Must be the transmission gearing. The 03 actually had less hp (240 old method) than the 06 (244 new method).
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,723
    my explorer has 8 buttons on the steering wheel. i like the buttons for the radio station presets. it has 6 presets.
    i put my favorite station on '1' and the kids on '4'. tap it 3 times and you can get to either.
    audio volume can be changed without anyone knowing.
    i like that i can change the temperature and fan speed without looking.
    the cruise is nice. tap up or down to change speed by 1 mph.
    i like all those buttons. :)
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,602
    Could be many things: gearing (as you said), weight, individual cars, who drove the car, etc. Heck, with a lot of cars a 260 pound driver vs a 150 pound driver can make a noticable difference.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,602
    I'm glad you like it and that it's useful to you. What I was saying is that extra steering wheel controls are not a safey feature. I was on the highway today and wanted to increase my cruise control speed. I had to look at the wheel for however short a time to accelerate. I could have changed radio stations or adjusted climate temp on the dash in just as short of a time.

    The steering wheel controls are a minor convenience (more valuable to some that others) but not a safety feature.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    I think the 06 Accord did gain some weight with the new rear end.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    I agree about the steering wheel controls. I use certain ones and others are moot. But others might make use of the other buttons which I don't, like changing FM to AM or scanning presets. I drive two similar cars, one with buttons and other without. So I usually get used to certain buttons on longer trip. Otherwise I change the radio the old-fashioned, quick way.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • luvmbootyluvmbooty Member Posts: 271
    Consumer Reports tested 0-60 and real world mpgs.

    VW Passat 3.6 overall mpg:22* 0-60: 6.8 sec.
    Honda Accord EX V6 overall mpg:23, 0-60: 7.4 sec.
    Hyundai Sonata GLS V6 overall mpg:21, 0-60: 7.5 sec.
    VW Passat 2.0T overall mpg:24* 0-60: 7.7 sec.
    Ford Fusion SEL V6 overall mpg:20, 0-60: 8.0 sec.
    Honda Accord EX 4-cyl overall mpg:24, 0-60: 9.0 sec.
    Toyota Prius overall mpg:44, 0-60: 10.5 sec.
    Honda Civic EX (manual trany) overall mpg:31, 0-60: 8.6 sec.

    *Uses Premium gasoline!
  • tallman1tallman1 Member Posts: 1,874
    I do like the buttons on the steering wheel but I find it easier to use the dash. Maybe it is because I drive a manual and my right hand is near the gear shift and so reaching up a few inches is no big deal. My left hand is near the top of the steering wheel so I have to move it down to use the radio controls.

    Heck, I have the voice-activated controls on my Accord so I don't have to press any buttons at all... fan speed, AC, radio, CD, Navi, etc. but I still find it easier to use the controls on the dash.
  • mfletou1mfletou1 Member Posts: 508
    Can I make an addition?

    Toyota Camry Hybrid cvt: 7.3s (R/T)
  • luvmbootyluvmbooty Member Posts: 271
    I thought it would be interesting to throw in invoice prices of top trims fully loaded (Navi Inc). No Navis available for Sonata or Fusion.

    VW Paasat 3.6: $35,696
    VW Passat 2.0T: $28,597
    Honda Accord EX V6: $26,935
    Toyota Prius: $26,206
    Honda Accord EX 4cyl: $24,803
    Ford Fusion SEL V6: $24,161
    Hyundai Sonata LX: $23,065
    Honda Civic EX: $19,532
This discussion has been closed.