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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread
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It's good that Honda & Toyota have competition. Otherwise, they would be charging MRSP or above as Honda did in the 1980's. Honda dealers are probably better to deal with than Toyota dealers.
If you haven't read the story Confessions of a Car Salesman on the Edmund's site (under the tips & advice tab) you should do so. It's a hoot. If the one high pressure dealership he is talking about isn't Toyota I'll give up beer for a week (that's worse than eating one's hat).
I haven't but I did read a similar story in a Car and Driver (or Motor Trend, not sure). Amazing!
Meanwhile, I'm sitting across from him, feeling sorry for the poor guy and trying not to laugh as he's explaining the antics at the dealership, including ringing an bell and announcing over the loud speaker that "Joe" from anytown just bought a Toyota. All the salesmen, even those with customers, stopped what they were doing to stand up and applaude "Joe" for buying his new car.
I mean, come on. If you want to claim that you can't get an Accord for that, than fine, but unless you actually try I have no clue how you would know--and I don't care where you live.
I didn't even BUY an Accord, so its not like I'm trying to pimp for my car here, its just that I can't stand know it all comments from people who don't know it all. You can get a totally loaded (everything but nav) Accord for under $24k, and if you can't, than you shouldn't be buying a car, a house, or anything else without parental supervision, and I don't care if you live in Seattle or Port St. Lucie.
Now, scape, I never said that an Accord 4 cyl is a FASTER car than say an Fusion SEL. I just said that according to CR and many others, its a BETTER car. In other words, the Accord/Camry 4 cyls are superior overall products to their V6 counterparts, with the probably exception of the Sonata.
Now, in reality, Car and Driver had your Fusion at 7.4 to 60. It had my Camry Hybrid (4 cyl) at 7.7. So, yeah, you're going to beat me...but the difference is going to be less than it took you read THIS word.
As for dealers...there are good and bad dealers selling every make and model. It may well be Toyota dealers are worse, I don't know. My purchase from a nationally renowed dealership was fantastic. They sell just about everything. I had an excellent purchase at the same dealership on a Dodge for my dad, and my last Chevrolet experience was excellent also.
I do find Toyota's distribution system bizarre and not customer oriented. Doesn't really affect the product and what you pay for it if you know what you are doing, though. Honda couldn't be simpler--trim levels = options. Pick which one you want.
I agree, not a fortune, but still a good chunk of change. That's exactly $7400 more than I paid for my well-equipped V6.
No need to apologize. I knew where you were coming from but others might not and I just wanted to make sure that the issue was clear on "the record".
Bobad--a better comparison though would be the Accord LX V6, which is running at least $2500 less than the EX. The EX has leather, heated seats, sunroof, etc--its the top of the line, minus Nav. There's no way you got all that on the Sonata for that price, is there?
I understand that yoru Sonata is still probably $4500 or so less than the comparably priced Accord, though, so your point stands. Its cheaper. Nobody is denying that. Its a good value. Nobody is denying that, either, as far as I can tell.
A lot of people just think its not as good, its not neccesarily as reliable, and it won't hold its value. I think #1 has objectively been proven time and time again by various publications, and #2 and #3 the jury is still out on. Its still way too new of a model to be able to tell what long term reliability will be. We know that previous gen Sonatas do not hold value well, but we don't know much about this one. As many say, they do not care, which is fine for them. But as I say, sooner or later, everybody changes cars, and depreciation will come into play whether you sell it with 110k or 50.
Surprise! :surprise: The Accord in its 4cyl form (either manual or automatic) is no match for a Fusion SEL V6! Why is it that you cannot believe this? The 4cyl in the Accord is rated at 160HP the V6 in the Fusion is rated at 221HP?? This is a 61HP difference.. Heck, I have found two auto sites on the net that actually rate the Fusion as .3 seconds the other .2 seconds quicker than the Accord 0-60!!??. Granted these are Automatic Accord V6's, not the manual V6 Accords.
Oh! Is that all? Only my mortgage payments for 8 months instead of 14 months? Well that's different!
All kidding aside, I do think the Accord is a slightly better car, and I would rather have one than my Sonata. But not for $4500 more. To me, it isn't quite there. I want to keep my Sonata for 10 years, until the warranty runs out. If I bought the Accord, I would probably have to keep it for 13 years or so, which is 10 years AFTER the warranty expires.
Funny, they dealt with us (my car coming in around invoice, at $21,000 + destination, sticker is $23,800)they are dealing with EVERY poster in the prices paid forum, but that doesn't matter apparently. You ignored this fact in the CRV forum, so I don't know why you'd listen to me now. Oh, and the dealership we purchased from negotiated our trade-in seperately, for which we got the Bluebook trade in "excellent" amount +$500 (our 2000 Odyssey was in really good shape).
I'm not claiming that an Accord is like a closeout-priced Ford or a screaming feature-per-dollar value like Hyundai, but what I AM saying about the Accords, being thousands off of MSRP, is true. You can ignore it if you like, but knocking my credibility in the process, I could do without. I'm not sure why this issue has to be disputed so much when the facts are plain and clear, and anyone who has bought an Accord recently or has just read the prices-paid forum for the Accord would know.
By the way, your facts are a little old. Honda upped their horsepower in Accords, not by much, but no 2006 Honda produces 160 horsepower.
The new numbers are 166 and 244 based on the new SAE Horsepower test standards. Honda and Toyota are two of the first companies that started going by the new regulation, which will be manditory soon (hence Sonata's hp number dropping slightly).
Becareful about conversions. UK mpg figures are normally figured on Imperial Gallons.
1) Sonata - A quiet ride and great build quality. Rode great and handled bumps quietly and rattle free. Best Exterior style. Interior is OK. Great safety features standard and the 2006 GLS came with Alloy wheels.
2) 2006 Camry - Very quiet ride and build quality. Didn't like style of either exterior or interior as they were the worst of the 3. Terrible standard features such as no Alloy Wheels or side curtain airbags. Was still my second choice because of the quietness.
3) 2006 Accord - Too noisy and too harsh on the bumps. Not what I was looking for. Did have the best interior of the 3 and I have no doubt it has a great build quality. I was just looking for a quiet car instead of a sports/family car hybrid.
So, on a different note, I think I read that SAB would be standard on Fusions in 2007, but that ABS would still just be optional? Is that right, or am I mistaken?
Diesel auto's getting 35-45 mpg all day.
A new Prius with FE in the 70-80's.
Small diesel trucks from Thailand.
Diesel Odyssey and MDX from Honda.
Flex fuel and biofuel fighting to replace dino fuel.
Huge V8 rigs getting 25-35 mpg all day long.
A dual mode Tundra hybrid.
I totally agree, although it may be a little longer.
Something's gotta change. The whole model from previous years is obsolete. So what happened with Honda and Toyota 20 years ago being compared to what Hyundai's going through now is kinda silly. The field will change radically. It just has to.
Just like 9/11 changed so many things, so will high oil prices and the pervasive concern for the environment. How do we justify buying major amounts of oil from people that hate us?
The mid-size segment will always be with us, but the days of high HPs and low MPGs are numbered. And they should be. As the world turns.
I would, however, be interested in a midsize sedan hybrid that gets 50-60 mpg, real world.
No, the hybrid is not a manual in the Camry. Its a CVT.
I appreciate the host's desire to move on...but there's really not much to argue anyway--facts are facts. And the facts are that Accords are selling for thousands under MSRP.
Just saying.
I think there are disagreement on this because of local pricing variability. Obviously some dealers make deep cuts, while others don't. When I bought my Sonata, the Accord V6 was $6K more, firm. My Hyundai dealer didn't make me choose the Sonata. The Honda dealer did.
Does GM have a HEAD2HEAD with Sonata? Is it the G6, LaCrosse or the Impala? Once again, add safety items, other content, and a warranty and the price is no longer in range of the Sonata. People will pay a premium for Honda and Toyota, or say a BMW, but a GM??? There is yet another problem they have. Wagoner has so many problems to contend with. Maybe he needs Dr. Z?
-Loren
As can be seen by the sudden surge in interest in vehicles will all kinds of gadgety and electronic interfaces the vehicles themselves are almost becoming secondary to the features.
Now to further confuse the situation change the power system from what has been in place for over 100 yrs to any one of a variety of systems:
Gassers - antiquated but comfortable
Hybrids - High tech, cost (?)
Diesels - Low tech ( now ) high efficiency, big upside
Hybrid Diesels - ???
Flexfuel - High tech but of questionable benefit
E85 - new buzz but of very questionable benefit
Biofuel - Low tech but very PC and beneficial
OK now compare a Flex-fuel Fusion ( nice alliteration ) to a Gasser Camry to a Diesel Accord.
Or would you prefer to compare a hybrid diesel Camry to a diesel Sonata to an E85 Impala.
Then throw in different levels of gadgetry and performance.
The permutations and combinations increase 10 fold possibly.
But you're right, the next 2-3 years will be interesting, fuel-wise!
The Accord discount phenomenon is a recent thing...last month or two. I think its really a product of what we are talking about here + a new Camry. Honda dealers told me they were losing people to the 07 Camry just because it was a newer product, and the sales figures bear that out.
But they have to be losing at least some people to cheaper alternatives, too.
But my message is really just a simple one: unless you've shopped an Accord in literally the past few weeks, you probably don't have an accurate view of what those cars are actually selling for. I know this because I myself didn't and I ended up being quite surprised. Then I did my research, talked to dealers, and realized my perception was wrong and all over the country they were cheaper than they were say, 3 or 6 months ago.
That's it. For better or for worse. It probably does not change a lot of people's perception of values, and that is fine. But I just don't see why we have to have a huge argument about it, because its a truth. As I said, I didn't even buy one.
I would say the G6 and Malibu are the sonatas most direct competiton from GM. The malibu isnt that expensive at all, but it does have less power than the Sonata and it lacks stability control. I think a loaded Malibu is right around $25k. The Impala and Lacrosse are definitely too expensive to be compared with the sonata.
Huh? An Impala can be had for low 20s.
Plus the guy buying the Impala would probably give up his left one before buying a Korean vehicle.
I bet a sonata hybrid will be out next summer to be in that field.
The Camry hybrid is already getting over the mpg listed by the EPA. Hopefully honda learns their lesson makes an Economic hybrid (I4 hybrid with 44+city and 39highway for under $30k :mad: Heck under $26k) instead of a performance hybrid. Toyota did the same performance hybrid thing 4 times (Highlander Hybrid, Rx400h, Gs450h, Ls600h) and I wonder if that will be fixed or remain the same. Are they selling well or are they getting the accord's criticism? Ok so the Ls600h isn't out yet but this message is for future intent.
They do get the same criticism as the Accord but IMO it's not warranted - except for the HH. All the rest are performance oriented and do exactly what they are intended to do. A Lexus buyer can get V8 power with the fuel economy of a 4c. That's pretty strong. The Rx400h gets about 25 mpg combined which is what the new 4c RAV gets. :surprise:
The HH is selling well but not strongly like the Prius and Camry but it's stuck in an aging model soon to be replaced and it too gets V8 power with the fuel economy of a RAV4.
But... if there is a new HH soon and it has the same power system as this new TCH ( 2.4L + HSD ) it could get V6 power ( 190 hp ) and the fuel economy of a Corolla! THAT's strong.
Back to midsized sedans.
Nearterm guesstimate:
All vehicle makers make diesels in one market or another. By 2010 all will have at least one ultra efficient model out. Diesel technology is not limited to any one maker.
Toyota will have HSD technology spreading throughout all it's segments.
Honda will have it's IMA hybrid technology in it's smaller vehicles and diesel in its larger ones.
As far as discounts on the Accord, they are available. So, there are no needs to attack others - just check out the dedicated pricing thread. They do exist and I bought my vehicle in early June. Perhaps try other dealerships I got my SE-4 auto for nearly $4,000 off of the Total Vehicle Price, which was $22,225 (I got some extra features thrown in - including wheel locks, 1 year roadside assistance, door guards, and wheel guards). I figured for the price, features, awesome fuel economy and power like a V-6 , outstanding resale value, it was the best vehicle for me. OTD was $20K - which is meaningless since taxes/fees vary.
Harshly said, but probably true.
http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/list/top10/116038/article.html
Now this is entirely personal and varies greatly. I could have lived with it, certainly--it was no worse than the Alero I owned. But the Camry just had more room for me, even though I know the numbers aren't really showing that. The knee angle was better, and there is plenty of clearance between the steering wheel and knee. Plus, the shifter was in a better spot for me to rest my right hand on. As an added bonus, the cupholders are to the right of that, as opposed to behind it, so when you have a drink there, you can still rest your hand/arm on it. That actually is important to me since my wife likes to put her morning tea in teh cupholder and I like to rest my wrist.
Camry wheel scopes too, btw.
I figured, but I didn't know for sure.
Interior layout/design is definitely a matter of personal fitment. My torso/leg layout may be entirely different from yours, even though I'm taller. Also, keep in mind that my other car is a smaller 1996 Accord sedan, so I guess I'm used to coziness. My new car feels large by comparison, and suits me fine.
I really disliked previous Camry interiors--particularly the last generation--but the new 07 is much different and aesethically pleasing as well as ergonomically perfect. One little thing the Camry has the Accord didn't is temperature controls on the steering wheel, so everything is at your fingertips. Otherwise, the Accord "feels" like an Acura and my Camry like a Lexus.
What else do you want on the steering wheel? The mirror adjustments? How about the transmission? Or the power outlets?
My TL has audio controls on the steerring wheel and I find I rarely use them. The audio controls on the dash are just a few inches away from where my hand rests anyway. I push the Auto button on the HVAC system, and I'm done. Pretty easy. Car makers are getting a little carried away, altho the Fusion's HVAC controls on the wheel make up for their silly placement down low on the dash in front of the shifter.
And how does an Accord 'feel' like an Acura?
The new numbers are 166 and 244 based on the new SAE Horsepower test standards. Honda and Toyota are two of the first companies that started going by the new regulation, which will be manditory soon (hence Sonata's hp number dropping slightly). "
Before this turns into a stuped argument over my Dad is bigger than your Dad... My simple point here is that those who claim a 4cyl Accord (either in manual or automaic) can best a V6 Fusion are leading you down a wrong path. Yes, the Fusion is one of the "lowest" HP rated vehicles in this class. But it is no slouch either. You claim a "4cyl" engine. Well lets look at engine size.. 3.0 liter to a 2.4 liter? .6 liters difference?? Do you know how big .6 liters is?? If I were in this room claiming the V6 Fusion can stomp a V6 Accord, I would be laughed at and look like a plain fool. I know a v6 Accord will best a V6 Fusion. This is why I make sure the Accord doesn't have dual exhaust and the v6 badge before I play...
I use them all the time...I drive in heavy traffic and I don't like to take my eyes off the road..its a little more distracting to reach over by feel than it is to simply touch the button on the steering wheel. I tool put it on auto move, but apparently unlike you, I change my mind how cool/hot I want it depending on how I'm doing. Sometimes, when I get in the car, I want it at 67, then when I get cool, I want it at 70. So now instead of taking my eyes off the road (again) to fiddle with the auto control, I simply tap the button on the steering wheel, and the car automatically re-sets the temp.
I thought the Accord felt like an Acura in terms of quality of materials--I couldn't detect a difference in the kind of plastic used in the Accord compared to the TL or TSX. Put it this way--if you changed the H bad to an Acura Logo, and you changed the Toyota logo to an L logo, neither car would seem out of place.