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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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Comments

  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    The poster's getting a Wrangler - we can move on now :)
  • venus537venus537 Member Posts: 1,443
    If someone buys Brand A, is that going to impress someone? And if it does, so what?

    i don't understand what this statement has to do with anything i wrote or with the price of tea in china for that matter. or what your argument is with me.

    in the poster’s opinion, the sonata was more satisfying than the malibu. it follows that the poster was weighing whether the extra cost of the sonata was worth it. hence, what the malibu had in its favor was the lower price.
  • w9cww9cw Member Posts: 888
    FWIW, I just got a quote, less TTL of course, on a new 2006 Sonata GLS V6 w/o sunroof for $15,700. This underscores the value one can get with a 2006 Sonata.
  • venus537venus537 Member Posts: 1,443
    oh no, you may have open a whole can of worms with your CR comments. those are fighting words to most domestic enthusiasts.

    This is from James Healey of USA Today on his May 12 chat:

    "...If the Japanese brands are putting something in the water of all CR readers and survey-responders, maybe you could have a case. But I know those folks and their methods and only use them as a reference point because I do know those things. In fact, I think many at CR's auto-test unit drive American cars, showing no personal animosity toward Detroit (but also perhaps making one wonder why they don't take their own advice)."
  • venus537venus537 Member Posts: 1,443
    That sounds like one sweet deal. Can you negotiate for me?
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    and you are absolutely certain that all the 'owners' reporting actually do own these vehicles. If you've read some of the reveiws ( I've read them all ) there are obviously trolls lurking in those reviews. Itwould be easy to drop the Sonata down to the 'high 7.0's' with a little concerted effort by several people.

    For every perfect 10 by an owner who loves the Sonata a troll only has to give it a 5.0...... average 7.5. It's hardly a scientific evaluation.

    Now throw out the top 10% and the bottom 10% of all the reviews like I did here once and the number is more likely to be accurate with public opinion.

    Just for kicks.. taking out the top 10 ( all 10's ) and the bottom 10 ( mostly 5's ) the middle 80% is at 9.2 rating.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,602
    Elroy, you're twisting words, again. I said I bought my Sonata based on what I got with the car for the price I paid. Besides all the typical power features, such as locks, windows and heated outside mirrors, I got special alloy wheels, heated seats, automatic climate control and homelink rar view mirror with auto dimming; plus the Hyundai warranty. Maybe, after serious negotiating, I could have gotten a 4 cyl, manual shift Accord with far less creature comforts for about the same price.

    I also said the Malibu may serve the poster's need and desired features at a lower price than other cars (including the Sonata). I was not putting down any of the cars under discussion.

    Maybe Elroy loves CR. I don't and said that this is because of what I felt was a bias 30 or so years ago, before Honda & Toyota became players. There's no anti-Camcord implication in that statement. Maybe a certain "consumer advocate's" association at the time helped develop my dislike for CR. ;) If you love CR, I have not problem with that. I just choose to ignore it (like certain newspapers) and get my information from other sources.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    I would not base my total decision to buy a certain car on Consumer Reports reviews. But CR gives me an idea (what to look for) when I do a test drive (good points and shortcomings to look for).

    Example: When I was shopping around for a new car in 91. I test drove a Grand Prix (based on looks and sportyness). Then I decided to buy a Consumer Reports mag. to see what they considered to be a good car. The 92 Accord was called "A class act" by CR, the Grand Prix was rated below average. Since I had already herd good things about the Accord from a friend who owned an older Accord, I decided to try one out. I was very pleasantly surprised. The Accord looked like a smaller car than the Grand Prix (from the outside) but when you sat inside each car, the Accord was more comfortable. I bought the Accord, and never regretted it, for 12 wonderful years. The few 92 Grand Prix that are still left on the road, look and sound like they are on their last leg (almost extinct). I'm sure glad Consumer Reports, and a helpful friend, suggested the Accord to me. In my opinion, they helped me make the right decision.

    Maybe they (CR) keep picking the Accord, because it keeps proving them right, time after time.
  • mfletou1mfletou1 Member Posts: 508
    We tend to dwell on CR. I hardly think CR should be anyone's only source. I personally read auto magazines such as Car and Driver for enjoyment, and I value their opinion. It just so happens, though, that their ratings (as well as Motor Trend, Road and Track, and Automobile), tend to jive pretty closely with what CR finds. The Accord, for instance, is consisently highly rated by C&D, the Sonata is dropped a bit, the Malibu a bit more. That's just the way it is.

    I think if a wide variety of sources come up with the same conclusions, you can pretty much rely on it. Most of the time, that's what happened---rare is the situation where Car and Driver hates a car that CR loves.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Consumer Report has a proven bias? So they are taking the data from surveys and changing it? Is that what you are saying? You have absolutely NO proof of that whatsoever!

    Good luck betting against a car not having the defects or problem areas listed in the survey. You can beat the odds, but that is a tougher row to hoe.

    There is nothing fine about the interior, BTW.

    Agree that the Impala has a decent interior. Exterior looks like a pregnant Accord = not bad, smooth - nothing that stands out as American in looks though.
    -Loren
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Actually, complaining about your car let's off a little steam. Lots of people do that!
    :mad:

    :shades: Loren
  • booyahcramerbooyahcramer Member Posts: 172
    Let's ?
  • autoboy16autoboy16 Member Posts: 992
    You were smart and purchased the good year. The 1990-1993 accord was great after 1991 so 1992 and 1993 were the years to have (and still are!!).

    :P Actually, this is hondas 30th anniversary so honda was around 30 years ago. Toyota, err....

    -Cj :)
  • pirate8pirate8 Member Posts: 9
    woow!! u guys went all ballistic. anyway i dont know. anyway decided to become a jeepster. going with the wrangler.
    thanks.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Um, huh? No one went "all ballistic" at all. At first we were trying to help you as you asked, and then you posted that you had settled on the Wrangler. At that point, regular programming resumed.

    Enjoy your Jeep!
  • luvmbootyluvmbooty Member Posts: 271
    Going to see a Ford dealer today. Thought I could use the info during negotiations. Imparticularly Fusion and 500. Thanks!
  • autoboy16autoboy16 Member Posts: 992
    Also check mercury, for the milan and Montego Premier sedans. The two tone leather is (almost) to die for! :P

    -Cj :shades:
  • autoboy16autoboy16 Member Posts: 992
    The Good News
    Ok! In my mind, its official. The Sonata is a good sedan. I decided to be amongst the few who accept it. Its price isn't what grabbed my attention. It was its surprising good looks(exterior). Unfortunatly, the interior needs some work...

    The Bad News
    Since Geely is coming I foind out that they plan on bringing over a camry size sedan (its a link. click it please) and how Geely doesn't like toyota. All of that is said in the paragraph before "What this means to you"

    If the sonata had a hard time fitting in, imagine how we'll feel about a whole new company with dirt cheap cars :cry: .

    What this means to you: Alpha Romeo is coming back but they aren't the only company to come. Smart, Chery, Geely, and plenty more will be here soon!!

    btw i haven't heard anything about the new Optima except for its v6 being a waste of gas and money by only making around 10-35 more hp than its 4cyl...

    -Cj :P
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Hyundai has been here for 20 years and still faces acceptance problems. I wonder how long it will take Geely to be accepted as a viable alternative by a large number of buyers in the U.S.? I know I would not be itching to buy a car with no track record, from a dealer network with no track record, from a company with no U.S. operational track record. Low price alone would not be enough to reel me in.
  • ontopontop Member Posts: 279
    The Sonata is a good sedan. I decided to be amongst the few who accept it. Its price isn't what grabbed my attention. It was its surprising good looks(exterior).

    Wow. Good looks for the Sonata? I can accept that the car is mechically a good vehicle, and the pricing is awesome.

    But good looks? The Sonata reminds me of a girl with a nice body..... but with paper bag looks.
  • ace35ace35 Member Posts: 131
    btw i haven't heard anything about the new Optima except for its v6 being a waste of gas and money by only making around 10-35 more hp than its 4cyl...

    Ive driven the 4cyl verison, which is actually a pleasant surprise. Highs Tight build quality, refined and powerful 4cyl, smooth and transparent 5pd auto, pleasant interior design w/excellent material usage.

    Lows Rough suspension tuning on LX 4 cyl,cheap tires on LX 4cyl, seats could use add'l bolstering.

    Although this vehicle was a rental that i was using, i was very impressed, i did some add'l research and found out you can get an EX model with dual powered front seats w/multi level heaters, auto climate control, rear sunshade, electrochromatic rearview mirror w/compass and homelink, electro gauges, and all of the audio controls on the sterring wheel. A 4cyl EX can be had for around 23k, but with incentives i was given a quote for $19k. A screaming value, and if i were ready to buy today, i would proably choose the optima or a Sonata V6.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    But good looks? The Sonata reminds me of a girl with a nice body..... but with paper bag looks.

    Never buy a beautiful car. It will never be happy with 1 owner, and will run around on you. :D

    All seriousness aside, your bias is showing. I've gotten far more compliments on my 06 Sonata than any other vehicles I have owned. So you are in the minority. Beautiful? No! Butt-ugly? Not by a long shot!
  • autoboy16autoboy16 Member Posts: 992
    well i didn't like it because i always saw the same 3 colors; An ugly purple, a strange silver, and light light light blue like the color of the "emo(j/k)" cars. But i saw this bluish greenish color it looked ok!! I'll put this link to it since the photo is copyrighted.

    It actually grabbed my attention. An then on the Sonata 2006+ forum, they had a picture of the interior with an on-board computer system on page, I post her link to the pictures here

    Hyundai has been here 20 years?? I guess since the vehicles had little eye candy, they didn't stand out to me. The 2007 santa fe also looks good. I just hope the 3rd row isn't like the one on the Highlander(top) image

    or 2007 Mitsubishi Outlander(shown bottom) image
    If that was going to be the case, :mad: they should have left the Montero... Toyota's are acceptable but the 07 outlanders are beyond poor. A 3rd row should be available in the Endeavor not outlander. If given a choice and had to pick, which one would you put a child in? Hopefully highlander. :D

    -Cj :shades:
  • ontopontop Member Posts: 279
    your bias is showing

    Bias?

    I don't like the looks of the front of the Sonata. The rear's OK. That ad for the Sonata - the Hyundai challenge one - really makes the car look awkward.

    Many others have expressed the same thing. Cars need to look good IMO. They present an image. And yes - you are what you drive. Go ahead and drive a Hyundai. Noone will confuse you with someone with an eye for style. Just for someone with an eye on their wallet (not always a bad thing bro). To each his own.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    From what I can can gather, the Sonata's styling has received general positives. It may be a bit generic and derivative, but the majority do not say that it is ugly (except ontop of course).

    The Accord, on the other hand, while receiving universal praise for the overall car itself, hasn't received much praise for its styling. Quite a few have commented on its "awkwardness".

    The Camry styling has been polarizing. Some really like it, some really don't.

    -------------------

    "Noone will confuse you with someone with an eye for style."

    Speak for yourself. You don't like the Sonata and that is fine. You don't speak for everyone else. Many people find the Sonata stylish, including myself, an Accord owner.

    -------------------

    "Just for someone with an eye on their wallet."

    Yet another immature dig at Sonata owners. Have you ever considered that Sonata owners actually buy it because they like the car itself, regardless of the value proposition?

    I got some news for you. No one gives "props" to anyone for driving a Sonata, but no one gives "props" to anyone for driving a Camry or Accord either. To the general public, all of these cars lemmings -- they are vehicles that they see in droves every day. The general public couldn't care less whether it's a Camry, Sonata, or Accord. ;)
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    I know some Honda folks keep saying Honda Accords are not really that expensive.. In Saturdays ads... Ford Fusion SE I4 automatic.. $17888... Honda Accord LX Automati $19,777.. I believe these are both comparably equipped.. Both dealers were offering multiples to choose from..
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    It would be important to know when comparing prices on these cars if the Fusion had the optional side bags and ABS (which together cost about $1400 and are standard on the Accord--unless the Fusion was a '07 and then the side bags would be there for sure), and whether the Fusion had any extras such as alloys (which don't come on the Accord LX).
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    I don't think ontop is saying its ugly - just that there is no pizazz to the Sonata. I too think the style, or lack of it, is a definite downside to an otherwise solid car. As a Honda lover, I was disappointed in the Honda restyle for 06. Enough to pass on it when I replaced my 02 Accord recently. And I passed on a Sonata because of it's looks. Yea - I like a stylish car. So do a lot of people.

    And the price of the car is it's major selling point. Priced like an Accord, they'd sell half as many.

    Everyone here doesn't have to like the Sonata.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    I know the Sebring is not an official car in the title of this thread (yet) but I found the e-mail I received (quoted below) from DCX quite interesting. Do they not have a clue yet? FWIW they did include a big old picture of the new Sebring and it is identical to the one posted here a while back. Thanks Chrysler but I'll pass. I'd even take an Accord over that hideous thing. :P

    Note their idea of "world class fuel economy". 31 MPG highway with the 2.4L I4? That's it? Don't most, if not all, of the other cars compared in this thread beat that handily? :confuse: Some of the V6s even beat it IIRC! Not good for this day and age Dr. Z.

    "As a Chrysler insider you know that for us, inspiration comes standard. That's why we want you to be among the first to learn about the all-new 2007 Chrysler Sebring. Sign up for updates now and you'll receive exclusive details and special offers for the sedan that is poised to inspire.

    Strikingly beautiful design, cutting-edge technology, world-class fuel economy,* and exhilarating performance combine to make Sebring a rewarding driving experience every time you get behind the wheel.

    From the sculpted hood to the 18-inch available chrome wheels, Sebring's exterior evokes excitement. Inside, innovative technology like the MyGIG™ Multimedia Infotainment System with SIRIUS® Satellite Radio and a 20GB hard-drive makes it easy to enjoy your favorite music and photos on the road.

    Sebring's 2.4-liter World Engine with dual variable valve timing (VVT) was designed for exceptional power, durability, and efficiency. A 2.7-liter V6 (available on Touring) offers flex fuel (E85) capability,† while a 3.5L (available on Limited) V6 delivers thrilling performance.

    And that's just the beginning. The Sebring is poised to revive your passion for driving. Sign up now, and get ready to change your perceptions.

    * EPA est. 23 city/31 highway mpg with the 2.4-Liter, DOHC, 16-Valve, VVT, SMPI I4 Engine.
    † When properly equipped. Not available in CA, NY, ME, MA and VT.
    SIRIUS is a registered trademark of SIRIUS Satellite Radio, Inc.
    "
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    That's pretty interesting how DCX's marketeers have expressed "worst in class" as "world class" for the I4 fuel economy. But that's what they get paid for I guess.
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    Oh boy. 18" wheels with a 4 cyl. engine. Ouch.

    And does the average consumer know how much 18" tires are to replace?
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    The general public couldn't care less whether it's a Camry, Sonata, or Accord.

    You mean folks won't think I look like a sophisticated international playboy driving my midsize family sedan? Aargh... I'm crushed. :cry:
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    If they don't care about the sucky fuel economy, they won't care about replacement cost for the 18" wheels. Hey... DCX's strategy makes sense after all! :)
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    * EPA est. 23 city/31 highway mpg with the 2.4-Liter, DOHC, 16-Valve, VVT, SMPI I4 Engine.

    Kinda sad that Chrysler of 2007 is just now catching up to Honda's economy of 1994. My 1996 Accord Automatic gets the same 23/31MPG that Chrysler's "world-class-economy" Chrysler gets.

    World-class must mean to Chrysler that it's better than something in the world, and not much else.
  • autoboy16autoboy16 Member Posts: 992
    :P you have better chances with a minivan :P
    _____________________________________________________________________________

    I saw the sebring thing too. Its 2.4l I4 offers a "stunning :surprise: " 172hp and 165 lb ft of torque. Its finally in the game. A 2.7l v6 is available for the touring and a 3.5l v6 is available for the limited. My v6 accord has a 2.7l v6 with 170hp and 165lb ft of torque. The engine size is similar to the sebrings and the hp figure is comparable to the 4 cylinder. Seems like the 4cyls have caught up with the old v6s... Is that good or bad? :confuse:

    ps the 3.5l v6 has 250 hp and 250 lb ft of torque. Hope fully the rear head rests that were MIA are finally in action :)

    -Cj :confuse:
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    It's good, if they have the power of the old V6s and the fuel economy of an I4. Which some cars like the Accord, Camry, and Sonata have. Or in the extreme, the Camry Hybrid has the power of a not-so-old V6 (the Camry's V6 from the prior generation) and the fuel economy of a small I4.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    "And I passed on a Sonata because of it's looks. Yea - I like a stylish car. So do a lot of people."

    Fine, you like a stylish car. So do I. But neither you, I nor ontop speak for the "people" when it comes to style. Personally, I find the 06 Accord generic, but less generic than the 02. In the end, I think all of these cars are more or less generic. Generic sells in this segment.

    "And the price of the car is it's major selling point. Priced like an Accord, they'd sell half as many."

    Price a GS300 like a E350, and Lexus would sell half as many. Does that mean that the price of the GS is its major selling point? Nope. Pricing is important for all cars.

    "Everyone here doesn't have to like the Sonata."

    Nope. And thank goodness. This forum (and the streets) would be a boring place if that were true. :surprise:
  • mfletou1mfletou1 Member Posts: 508
    For what its worth, I'm not a fan of Sonata styling either, from some angles...but from others, not so bad. I guess my biggest problem with it is lack of "precense." Its so anonymous...like a Malibu. The front end looks like an Elantra and that style grill and headlights were introduced on the Elantra.

    Accord is bland, yes, but still sleek with great details. I think Ford did a great job styling wise with Fusion and Milan--to my eyes, they are two of the most distinctive vehicles in this segment.

    Camry is a bit polarizing, I guess...but the thing is, at least in Barcelona Red, people really NOTICE it. I'm not used to it. I didn't care for the front end but its growing on me. It does, however, have a great [non-permissible content removed]! The overall look is just very aggressive looking compared to a Sonata. I can totally see where that would turn some people off which is why I'm never really going to argue about styling.
  • luvmbootyluvmbooty Member Posts: 271
    I tested the 05 500 SE 2WD, 2006 Chevy Malibu Maxx LT, and 2006 Sonata GLS V6. All these cars are considered large sedans and are can be priced under $20,000.

    Out of all three, my favorite was the Sonata. I thought the ride was the best. The seats were the most comfortable. Definitely had most power. I had wife and 2 kids in back seat (one kid in car seat). The 500 had most room, then Sonata, then the Maxx wife said she felt a little cramped. She's about 5'2" and 110 lbs. Neither Chevy or Ford (even with new warranty) can't beat Hyundai's. Wouldn't need extension for Sonata but the others...more cash out of my pocket and into theirs. Another thing I like about Sonata I like all safety features being standard. The other 2 I'd have to search for combo of desired options (like side curtain airbags) and desirable color. Why doesn't all manufacturers make curtain side airbags standard! Is their anyone who wouldn't want them?

    Personally I like Sonata's styling. Has anyone seen the 2006 Sonata with body kit? Go to www.factorywings.com/Detail.bok?no=2496. Sorry don't know how to do that link thing. :blush:
  • tallman1tallman1 Member Posts: 1,874
    ...and a 20GB hard-drive makes it easy to enjoy your favorite music and photos on the road.

    My personal favorite part of the message. Music I can understand but enjoying my favorite photos on the road??? :P
  • savagekei05savagekei05 Member Posts: 29
    I think it really depends on how much homework you have done and how you negotiate with them. Last August I got my 05 Honda Accord V6 EX w/ everything included and a spoiler OTD 24,500$ still around 2000$ below the invoice price.

    So it really depends on you negotiate skill.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    Music I can understand but enjoying my favorite photos on the road???

    I didn't even catch that one. Must have been so off the wall that I wasn't expecting it and ignored the photo part. Unreal!
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    And does the average consumer know how much 18" tires are to replace?

    I was shocked to see how much OEM replacement 17" tires are for my Mazda6 (Michelin Pilot MXM4). After tax and all of the other labor fees I'm looking at $200+ each (unless I get them from tirerack.com and find someone to mount them cheap). They are pretty worn down at only 13,300 miles and will most likely need replaced before the lease is up next March. Fortunately the lease states that I can replace them with other brands as long as the rating and sizes are identical.
  • ace35ace35 Member Posts: 131
    EPA est. 23 city/31 highway mpg with the 2.4-Liter, DOHC, 16-Valve, VVT, SMPI I4 Engine.

    Just a question, isnt this new 4cyl that Chrysler is using, the same engine that was co-developed with hyundai, and mitsu. If so, how is it that hyundai can squeeze 34 highway mpg out of the engine, while chrysler only manages 31mpg. Is it tuned differently? a heavier vehicle? Very dissapointing for an 07 4cyl vehicle.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I expect DCX has tuned the engine more for power than fuel economy.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    It means that I talk about cars and respond to others. If I disagree with something, I respond to it. You disagreed with some of things in my post, so you responded to it. I had no problems with that.

    Responding and quoting to specific areas in someone's post is nothing new and happens in forums. There's nothing antagonistic about it. Helps the original poster see what exactly the other person is responding to. Reduces the likelihood of people attributing things to that person that that person did not really say.

    When did I say your opinion doesn't count? I just don't agree with some of it. Doesn't mean that it doesn't count. Others may agree with you, and that's all good.

    I'm not really "concerned" about any particular thing. I talk about the Camry, the Accord, the Sonata, the Altima and the Fusion. I say my piece, I stick to cars, I stick to the forum rules.

    Just chill. These are cars we're talking about. No need to get all riled up and get personal about it. Let's get back to cars, whether it's in agreement or disagreement ;)
  • mfletou1mfletou1 Member Posts: 508
    Only thing I find puzzling is the room in the Malibu Maxx....the back seat is literally class leading. It has FOUR INCHES more rear legroom!

    Agreed on side airbags...I found one with them on our Maxx without much problem when I was buying, but if I couldn't I wouldn't have bought it.

    Source is consumer reports on interior room.
    2006 Malibu Maxx
    LT SS LTZ
    Standard Seating 5 5 5
    Optional Seating No data No data No data
    Front Headroom (in.) 39.40 39.40 39.40
    Rear Headroom (in.) 39.40 39.40 39.40
    Front Legroom (in.) 41.90 41.90 41.90
    Rear Legroom (in.) 41.00 41.00 41.00
    Front Shoulder Room (in.) 56.70 56.70 56.70
    Rear Shoulder Room (in.) 55.50 55.50 55.50
    Front Hip Room (in.) 53.50 53.50 53.50
    Rear Hip Room (in.) 52.40 52.40 52.40

    2006 Sonata
    Interior Dimensions
    GL GLS LX
    Standard Seating 5 5 5
    Optional Seating No data No data No data
    Front Headroom (in.) 40.10 40.10 40.10
    Rear Headroom (in.) 38.20 38.20 38.20
    Front Legroom (in.) 43.70 43.70 43.70
    Rear Legroom (in.) 37.40 37.40 37.40
    Front Shoulder Room (in.) 57.40 57.40 57.40
    Rear Shoulder Room (in.) 56.90 56.90 56.90
    Front Hip Room (in.) 55.50 55.50 55.50
    Rear Hip Room (in.) 55.30 55.30 55.30
  • howardmdhowardmd Member Posts: 6
    also looking at the sonata but I am interested in the 4 cyl. Do you also like the 4 cyl? I seem to only be finding good things about the 6 cyl.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Some personally-directed posts have been removed.

    (Note: I am talking to people who have had a post disappear this morning, not the poster just before me. :))
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    This may have already been posted, but I didn't see it...what transmissions will be used in the new Sebrings? Any manuals?
This discussion has been closed.