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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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  • exalteddragon1exalteddragon1 Member Posts: 729
    Are you saying that the Maxima will have a V8??????????
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    Nothing wrong with Sonata V6 fuel economy. It gets better mpg than the Accord V6 auto.
  • ace35ace35 Member Posts: 131
    The reason thy are still selling the maxima is the same reason why toyota sells the avalon. The maxima is based off an extened FWD version of the altima. The maxima isn't much bigger on the outside, but inside is where it shines.

    I think the camry and avalon have there territory better defined. I sure some buyers will go to buy a camry and walk away with a avalon or vice versa, but im sure most consumers for those vehicles either want one or the other. I just dont see that happenening with the altima & Max. The Max dosent really offer anything over the Altima, except a few inches, and in my opinion less style. The camry and Avalon look nothing alike either inside or out, they have different driving characteristics, and ultimately appeal to 2 different groups of consumers.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    There are a good number of sales to local rental agencies that are not fleet sales. The rental company just buys 3 or 4 or 6 vehicles from retail stock every 6 months or so. This is different than a corporate fleet buy in the thousands of vehicles.

    The sales to individual Toyota stores for their TRAC programs however are part of the fleet sales and as noted above there is a contract in place for these deliveries.
  • ontopontop Member Posts: 279
    Nothing wrong with Sonata V6 fuel economy. It gets better mpg than the Accord V6 auto.

    Wrong.

    The Sonata V6 gets 3-5 less mpg than the Accord's. The Accord is one of the few vehicles out there that gets MPGs at or higher than that asserted on the sticker. The TL's another one - gets 32mpg highway.
  • maxamillion1maxamillion1 Member Posts: 1,467
    The Maxima has many many more optional features that arent' available on the Altima. For instance, you can get the Elite pkg on the Max (4 seats with heated rear seats and power sunshade) you can get memory seats on the Maxima, power folding and auto dimming rear view outside mirrors, etc. etc. on the Maxima. You can't get most of this stuff on the Altima.

    Truth be told, the new Altima for 07 will be more powerful than the current Maxima, but no one complained when the Camry used to make more power than the Avalon.

    Maxima is a bit redundant and needs to be completely revamped and redone IMO. The car was lackluster since it was redesigned and even though the new interior and other features for 07 are nice, I don't expect the Maxima will gain anymore sales this year.

    Since Nissan is making the Altima the family sedan now, I think the Maxima should acutally be the smaller car, while still wearing the flagship name. Make the car about the size of an Acura TL this next time around and focus on styling, handling and sportiness, leave the family jargon to the Altima.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    "The Sonata V6 gets 3-5 less mpg than the Accord's. The Accord is one of the few vehicles out there that gets MPGs at or higher than that asserted on the sticker. The TL's another one - gets 32mpg highway."

    Shure mister... if you insist. ;) Hyundai must have paid off the EPA to assert its mpg on the sticker!

    FYI, my wife's Accord gets 30 mpg on the freeway, and about 15 mpg in the city, moderate driving. Average mpg, 50/50 hwy/city driving is about 22.5 mpg. This is about what CR got in its real world testing.

    Over in the Sonata real world mpg forum, this is around what most posters are getting. Some better, some less.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    What is your evidence?

    In C/D's comparo of the Accord EX V6, Camry XLE V6 (2006 Camry), Fusion SEL V6, and Sonata LX, all but the Fusion got 20 mpg in C/D's 300-mile trip. The Fusion got 21. Note that all those figures are below the overall EPA ratings.
  • w9cww9cw Member Posts: 888
    I seriously considered the Accord and Camry (granted, 2006 models), but bought a Hyundai. (NOTE: I actually came within seconds of signing the contract on a Camry XLE, but for the first time in my life literally walked out on an unbelievably arrogant salesperson). I could have bought any midsize sedan, including an Audi or Volvo, but am very happy with my decision. Perhaps if more consumers buy beneath their finanacial ability, based more on value for the dollar and less on perceived status, Hyundai's reputation will improve.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    We're talking about specific sedans here ...

    Some posts have been removed.
  • jimmy81jimmy81 Member Posts: 170
    Perhaps if more consumers buy beneath their finanacial ability, based more on value for the dollar and less on perceived status, Hyundai's reputation will improve.

    Maybe that's what you did, but others don't always look at the price as being the main factor when making their buying decision. The lower price of the Sonata is the only reason it seems most people (here) are buying the car, but most people have the money to pay for what they want, so they don't have to settle for a Hyundai. The CamCord prices are right where they need to be.
  • tenpin288tenpin288 Member Posts: 804
    The CamCord prices are right where they need to be.

    Actually, it's more like the prices are right where Toyota and Honda want them to be, not where the customer really needs them to be. ;)
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    I totally agree tinpin! Toyota and Honda don't sell their cars at outrageous prices because they must, but because they can! If I didn't know any better, I would think I am hearing people implying that higher prices are a GOOD thing. :confuse:
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    There is a positive thing about a higher price. I think many people have a perception that the more you pay for something, the higher its quality. And that is true in many cases. For example, a $25-30,000 Accord or Camry is a better car than a $10,000 Aveo. So by paying a lot more for a car like an Accord or Camry vs. a car like a Fusion or Malibu or Sonata, the Camcord buyer gets reinforcement that they have purchased a higher quality car.

    The really low prices on the Sonata may actually hinder people who have this perception of the linkage between price and quality from even looking at the car. They may think that it can't possibly be competitive with a Camcord, since it costs thousands less. Can a car be priced too low? Hmmm...
  • meateatermeateater Member Posts: 123
    For example, a $25-30,000 Accord or Camry is a better car than a $10,000 Aveo.

    They don't make a $30,000 Accord. And who says the Aveo isn't as good as a Camry? They both get you from A to B.

    Price isn't the only, or main, factor when people buy a car. Sure they want to be within ranges, but how many people walk into a dealership wanting to spend $25K, and walk out spending $35K? Lots.

    The pipe smokers with the newspaper under their arm walking into the dealership are shunned by the salespeople.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    Can a car be priced too low? Hmmm...

    Understood!

    Most people are natural skeptics, and that's a good thing. That's why it's so important for prospective car buyers to drive the Sonata. Personally, I'm a skeptic among skeptics. When I did my test drives, I expected the Sonata to be a nice car for the money based on my research. However, after driving the cars, the Sonata's value hit me like a ton of bricks. Sure, I liked A, C, and M6 a little better, but the Sonata's value was simply overwhelming. Unlike what some are implying, value is not strictly about money. It's what you get for your money. That can be said about $10K cars or $500K cars. Where do you stop? My wallet stopped at $16600, my car went far beyond that!
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    The Accord Hybrid is over $30k MSRP. The MSRP of the Accord EX V6 with nav is $29,850--which rounds up to $30k.
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    My V6 SEL Fusion is getting a sold 26MPG on average!! I now have about 2.5K miles on the vehicle and reset the computer at every fill. I am very, very happy with my Fusion and its performance, quality and MPG.. :shades:
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    " Perhaps if more consumers buy beneath their finanacial ability, based more on value for the dollar and less on perceived status, Hyundai's reputation will improve."

    I totally agree here with "perceived status". Visit other chat rooms, consumers are getting smarter by the day. They are realizing you don't have to pay the extra $$ for an Accord or Camry to get a great midsize sedan. Time, it is only a matter of time that this perception that everything Honda or Toyota is perfect will fade away. Toyota did have problems with the Camry, yet the media did not let the public know... The only place I heard of this was on the internet, in other chat rooms around the net. You have to kind of wonder why?
  • ace35ace35 Member Posts: 131
    those are pretty solid mpg #'s scape2, im glad to hear the fusion is doing great for you, i think this car is quite a looker in person, it really stands out, especially in bright colors in SEL trim.
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    "So by paying a lot more for a car like an Accord or Camry vs. a car like a Fusion or Malibu or Sonata, the Camcord buyer gets reinforcement that they have purchased a higher quality car. "

    Huh??? Reinformcement they purchased a higher quality car??? How about you just spent extra money for nothing, and could have used that extra money towards a nice vacation...?? Higher quality in your PERCEPTION. The Fusion is of no less "qualiity" than your Accord or Toyota. Its all in your "perception" It has been so beat into your head that nothing, nothing can touch an Accord/Camry in any way shape or form.. Sad, very sad.. Choice is nice.. I won't pay extra for a perceived quality advantage. I stopped paying extra about 10 years ago and havent' looked back. All my non Honda/Toyota products have performed fine. ;)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Higher quality in your PERCEPTION.

    Yes, that was the point I was trying to make. As I explained, there are people who link price to quality. Others, like you, can look past that.
  • ctalkctalk Member Posts: 646
    Yes, I know many people who make that "link".

    I am currently shopping for a new camera for my vacation. I asked for suggestions from my friends. Many of them suggested to buy the "high end" Sony camera which would cost me $150 more than the Canon camera that I was looking at. I asked them why? They told me, "The price is more expensive, they're in different classes. The Sony camera has more features and better image quality." But if you look closely at what features they have. They're very close . They just simply assumed that the higher price equaled more features and better quality. I started to look for reviews. The Canon happened to have better ones. They paid $150 more for an inferior camera.

    Like you said, paying a higher price gives some people a feeling of buying a quality product. When they start paying for a car that's low in price, in comparison to other products. They start to wonder why its lower priced.

    But, we can't assume all Camcord owner's buy their cars for this reason. I bought my car based on its merits. It had a great interior design, great seats, etc.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I totally agree here with "perceived status". Visit other chat rooms, consumers are getting smarter by the day. They are realizing you don't have to pay the extra $$ for an Accord or Camry to get a great midsize sedan.

    Gee, where have I heard this before? It sounds so familiar. Good thing I know better than to think status comes from a four-door grocery getter, or my college friends would eat me alive. I got my Accord because of the room, economy, the fact that nobody pays close to sticker (try $23,000 for V-6 models with Stability control, moonroof, 6-disc CD-Changer, 17" Alloys, etc...that price is straight from the prices paid forum...check it out)and most importantly to me, the interior quality and design. It's interior appealed to me most, and since that's the majority of what I'll look at over the life of the car, it's what I valued heavily.

    Not status. If I wanted status, I wouldn't have been shopping 4-door family-haulers.
  • ace35ace35 Member Posts: 131
    I was able to witness first hand a vehicle accident, where stability control would have been beneficial. I was driving down I 85 in N.C. we were getting buckets of rain past couple of days, then suddenly a blk chevy silverado, went speeding past me and the driver lost control, i didnt realize how much someone can oversteer a vehicle when in a situation like this, but he went from one side of the guard rail to the other. But strangely a jeep cherokee was behind him and when the driver slammed on brakes to avoid him, and at such a high rate of speed the cherokee, while twitching a little from side to side, came to hault safely. i could effectively see the ESC system doing its job. My point is to say i will "never" purchase a vehicle w/o stability control, i hope it never has to be used, but just witnessing what i saw is all i needed to seal the deal for stability control. Wow what an effective system.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "Unlike what some are implying, value is not strictly about money. It's what you get for your money."

    Not quite. It's about what you believe you get for the money. Your subjectivity about value is different than mine.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    You are correct in that quality and price are independent. But that doesn't make the lower price Sonata a better quality car than it's competitors. Quite the contrary, I believe you are getting good quality in a Sonata, but better quality in an Accord or Camry. Nothing will change my opinion of that, just like some believe Accord=Sonata + three grand.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    IMO the Accord and Camry are better than the Sonata in some ways, and the Sonata is better than the Accord and Camry in some ways. So the "quality" equation is decided in which of those "ways" is most important to YOU. For example, some people really like the interior of the Accord and really hate the interior of the Sonata. So even though the Accord costs thousands more, it doesn't matter because they couldn't live with the Sonata's interior. Others will pay thousands more for a Camry because of its reputation for reliability--it's worth that much to them.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    Not quite. It's about what you believe you get for the money. Your subjectivity about value is different than mine.

    So! Your measurements of interior volume, noise DB, braking distance, HP, safety features, etc. are different than mine? Maybe you're from France? :D
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    Accord=Sonata + three grand.

    Bad forumla. The real formula is "Sonata=98% of Accord-$6K +V6" :D
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    No, but I don't always pick the vehicle with the lowest interior noise, best radio or shortest stopping distance. In other words I don't buy a car based on vehicle metrics. To wit...nobody would ever buy a BMW if vehicle metrics were the only thing a consumer cared about.

    I ask myself questions such as: How do I like the leather, how do I feel in the seats, what do I think of the fit and finish of the car and much more. In other words, the Accord to me has the best fit and finish in this segment that would be worth paying more for, even if it loses to some other competitor metrics.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    In other words, the Accord to me has the best fit and finish in this segment that would be worth paying more for...

    We're in agreement on that point, as I have already indicated. The sticking point is how much more I would pay. I would pay $1K or $2K more tops, but not $6-$7K for sure.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Not quite. It's about what you believe you get for the money. Your subjectivity about value is different than mine.

    So! Your measurements of interior volume, noise DB, braking distance, HP, safety features, etc. are different than mine? Maybe you're from France?

    I don't think that's quite fair...All that was trying to be said was that, for example, while the Sonata may have the most interior room, I don't value interior room nearly as much as I do interior quality and design, so in essence, the Sonata is not as valuable to me. If you desire interior room as a main purchase point, and find the interior of the Sonata acceptable, or even beautiful, or you don't care what the interior looks like as long as its functional, then the Sonata will hold more value to you.

    THAT'S how it is subjective.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    If your budget is $22K, I can understand not paying $25K for a vehicle, you can't afford it. You are getting the vehicle that is best for you within your budget.

    If my budget is $27K, I would pick up the Honda v6 with leather for $25K (according to edmunds tmv). I believe I'm getting $3K worth of a better car in the absolute sense.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    I didn't know that V-6 Sonatas were going for $16,000 with Sunroof and 6-disc CD-Changer. That is quite a deal if you like the car. LX V6 Accords are going for $23,000 per the prices paid forum here at Edmunds.

    They're not. My GLS V6 doesn't have a 6 CD changer or sun roof. I wouldn't pay a penny for a 6 CD changer or sun roof. In fact, a car without such fragile accessories is more valuable to me. I wanted leather, but had to forego it because the leather package had auto climate control that was only warranted for 5 years. I intend to keep the car for 10.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Keep in mind that there are those of us who could pay $25-27k for a mid-sized sedan but simply choose not to. An alternative is to buy the least expensive car that meets the buyer's requirements, and use the rest of the money for something else. But if it takes a $25-27k car to meet your requirements, then all you can do is negotiate the lowest possible price for that car.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,602
    I don't understand what you mean by the word "metrics" as used in your message. Please define it. (Not trying to be smartass, just trying to understand.)
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    I believe I'm getting $3K worth of a better car in the absolute sense.

    Based on everything I know, I would go $2K more on a good day. But I can certainly understand the Accord being worth a $3K premium to others.

    It's a moot point anyway. For a reasonably similarly equipped Accord, the dealer wanted $6K more.
  • mfletou1mfletou1 Member Posts: 508
    Over and over here is what the "perception" is of what Camrys and Accord actually cost. Having been a non-Camcord buyer for a long time, I had an assumption as to what the transaction prices were that ended not being reality. I knew the deals I was getting buying American. I didn't know, however, that for LESS THAN a comparably equipped Impala, I could buy and Accord EX V6. Literally less. I was set to buy an EX V6 with leather, sunroof, heated seats, 244 hp, 6 airbags, etc etc for $23600. The Impala LT3 or LTZ is going for $24-25k. Now of course I didn't end buying an Accord, but you see my point. So where is the premium exactly?

    Again, even value is variable. Factoring in my tax credit, I paid $24k for a Camry Hybrid with a sunroof, bluetooth, a 440 watt sound system, and various other niceties. My car gets 34 mpg. More importantly, with my car, I'm going to be zooming along in the HOV lane while everybody else in their Sonatas and Malibus are stuck in traffic. To ME, that's extremely valuable. I have a 75 mile roundtrip commute to work. The gas savings WILL pay for the extra hybrid costs very quickly thanks for the big tax credit.

    So, in my life, the Camry Hybrid is a great value. If you don't have a long commute, if you don't want some of the features it has, it might not be for you.

    But look, if we were to equalize the price of all cars in the market--say every single one cost the same--what we find? I suspect the Accord and Camry would be the two best vehicles.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    I do think that the price gap may not be as large as one might think. Here are the cars, as similarly equipped to a fully loaded Sonata.

    2007 Camry XLE V6 (heated seats, smart key, VSC): MSRP: $29,640, Street price: $27,500

    2006 Accord EX V6 auto: MSRP: $27,850, Street price: $24,000

    2007 Sonata V6 Limited (sunroof, Infinity stereo): MSRP: $25,345, Street price: $22,500

    The street price of the 2007 Sonata is a bit misleading because it just came out. I would expect its street price to drop by an additional $2000 in the coming months.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    There's different ways to look at that. When Edmunds.com tested like-priced Accord, Camry, and Sonata, the Sonata came out on top. When CR tested mid-sized family cars and did not consider price in their rankings, the Accord EX V6 won narrowly over the Passat V6. The cars that cost over $27k outpointed the cars that cost less. Not surprising at all.

    Imagine what Hyundai, for example, could do with the Sonata if they were to charge $27k for a V6 with leather, like Honda does. Do you suppose that extra cash could pay for a better interior, fit and finish, more power etc.? Actually, we don't have to wonder. They have a car like that called the Azera that starts just under $25k. It outscored the Accord and Camry in CR's tests in acceleration, braking, rear-seat comfort, and interior fit and finish.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    May be fair to mention the street price of the 2006 Sonata LX, loaded, is well under $20k. That is what people are buying right now. I see lots of 2006 Sonatas on the lot of my local dealer, no 2007s yet.
  • mfletou1mfletou1 Member Posts: 508
    Right, but that is not the case for the Camry since it just came out. The Camry price will drop, that is a certainty.

    The Azera did well...but did it really outshine Camry/Accord with CR overall? No.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    If you look at the details of CR's review, you'll see the Azera did do as well as or better than the Accord and Camry in almost every aspect, except fuel economy. So "overall" it did very well against them. It is considered by CR to be an "Excellent" car, just like the Accord and Camry.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    The lowest priced car that meets my requirements is an Excel, but I choose not to ride around in one and instead pay a hefty premium of over $15K to ride around in something else. I could have taken that $15K and put a downpayment on a timeshare, but I didn't. I sunk it into a car. For Sonatas you could get two Excels, seems like a bargain to me.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    I knew the deals I was getting buying American. I didn't know, however, that for LESS THAN a comparably equipped Impala, I could buy and Accord EX V6. Literally less. I was set to buy an EX V6 with leather, sunroof, heated seats, 244 hp, 6 airbags, etc etc for $23600. The Impala LT3 or LTZ is going for $24-25k. Now of course I didn't end buying an Accord, but you see my point. So where is the premium exactly?

    Isn't the Impala considered a "large" car as opposed to the others being discussed here though?
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Actually for one Sonata you could get about 20 Excels. They haven't been sold new since '94, and I'll bet you could pick one up easily for under $1000.

    If an Excel meets your needs, you must have very minimal requirements in a car. It's a very small and, by today's standards, very crude car. I'm surprised you didn't buy something like a '95 Civic EX instead of a brand-new mid-sized car.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "If an Excel meets your needs"

    You must have missed the part in my post where I added, I choose not drive it. :) Yes, I do think the midsize I drive which is 2.5 times as expensive is 5 times better.
  • mfletou1mfletou1 Member Posts: 508
    Well, if you check out interior volume, its pretty close. The Impala doesn't have much of an advantage over Accord, Camry, Sonata, etc. In many cases the Impala is closer than the Malibu to these cars in terms of volume. And pricing.

    Yes, I did read the report that included the Azera. I recall it being favorably reviewed, but not more so than Accord and Camry. Similarly, it should be noted that CR rated the Sonata significantly lower than Accord and Camry, that was based not so much on features but on ride and handling. As I said, for many people its a small price ot pay. But its not neccesarily smarter than paying compartively a little bit more for something that is a higher quality.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    You meant 25 times more expensive, right?

    Any current mid-sized car is at least 5 times better than the ol' Excel. ;)
This discussion has been closed.