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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread
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he had a honda motorcycle
it had so many features etc etc
he said it was one of the best motorcycles he'd ever rode.
He told his friend, "If honda ever made a car it would be one of the best cars on the market" Then he waited fiteen or so years and they came out with the civic.
He bought one brand new and he drove it and sure enough, it was an amazing vehicle at the time. Now everytime theres a new body model he goes out and buys one.
Honda has a great team working for them and regaurdless of peoples individual point of views on the cars, most people who have owned one would agree that they are some of the best average consumer market cars out there.
Honda's standards are high. They don't make poor products. CR is not the only car review that places the Accord on top. Ever heard of Car and Driver's 10 best lists? I guess they are bias too. Are they all bias for Honda?
:shades:
Loren
he had a honda motorcycle
it had so many features etc etc
I said exactly the same thing when I was 18. I had 3 Honda's, and loved them. When I grew up, I learned it was not in my best interest to lock myself into 1 brand. I still think Honda's are great to this day, but I play the field.
It was subconcious, but my thought process was "c'mon, this is a great car, everybody rates it the best, I'm sure it will work out."
It wasn't till I drove it again and came down to having a purchase order being written up in front of me that I realized I had to leave all that out and think about what was best for ME.
Point being, certain cars with reputations start at an advantage, its human nature. I do believe that the Accord, for instance, has earned most of its accolades, but I also think it benefits from its reputation and that does count for something.
That is a really good example. I recently drove a Sonata for a week and found the placement of the center air vents to be nearly ideal. So it is important to take reviewer's comments with a grain of salt and see first-hand whether you agree or disagree, and whether the issue is even important to you.
I dont feel the 06 Sonata LX would have tested out differently than their Sonata GLS V6, since it was equipped with the 17 inch wheel package. If anything, testing the GLS V6 illustrates the value prop offered by the Sonata.
~alpha
If CR buys the most popular trims of each vehicle, but there is little difference between trim levels when it comes to ranking them, they should make that clear in their rankings. For instance, they rank cars by price. In the under-$25k category for sedans, if they were to rank cars regardless of trim level, then based on the tests that they have actually done, the Camry LE V6 should top that category, followed by the Azera SE. Both of them would outscore by several points the other under-$25k cars such as the Accord EX I4, Sonata V6, and Fusion V6.
If you take issue on how CR classifies vehicles in the rankings or what they SHOULD do, I believe that CR's website offers the opportunity for feedback. I think they do a fair job at matching competitors in most situations, and sometimes significantly better than the dedicated auto rags. I thought, for example, that C/D's February '03 comparison test of family sedans was particularly bizarre- 9 or 10 models, tested in a HUGE range of varities- with 4s, V6s, manuals, and automatics. Not sure how that makes for a good comparison. Or even as recently as this month, MT reviewed minivans with a price spread of 16 grand- why was a midtrim Sedona pitted against a maxed out Quest (though it certainly speaks to the goodness of the Sedona's design..)?
Plus, CR is testing many more versions of the vehicles it tests sooner than it has in the past, which is a step in the right direction. That said, its impossible for ANY mag to test every iteration of every vehicle, and given that constraint, I think CR is doing a good job. As consumers, we can take the ratings of any publication for what they are worth, and the bottom line is how we feel after driving the vehciles themselves. What seems to be the emergent consensus, though, is that the new Camry and current Accord (along with the pricier Passat) are the leaders in the class, with the Fusion and Sonata very VERY close behind.
~alpha
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Noticing many new Impala's, Sonata's and even G6
s on the road lately. And before you jump in with the line "they are all rentals" .. Nope, no rental stickers on any of the ones I saw. Granted, I know this is a non-scientific poll.. but as much as a car buff I am, I notice new vehicles pretty quick..
I am just not a fan of CR anylonger. Bias runs deep in their writing and reviews.
And that's your privilege to make fun of my opinion. I will follow the Rules of the Road and not make fun of yours.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
In any event, I give them what I think they deserve, which is "nothing." I don't care about toasters, vacuum cleaners, etc and prefer to get auto information from sources, such as Edmunds, which are dedicated to autos.
alpha
If you read owner reports in the Sonata 2006+ discussion here, you will see some owners believe the leather seats in the LX are more comfortable and supportive than the cloth seats of lower trims. There is not a huge difference in controls and displays, but it is not unreasonable that CR staffers would see the set-and-forget simplicity of auto climate control to be a plus over the standard controls of the GLS. Here is a quote from the August comparo that illustrates this point, re the Accord:
Most controls are simple, though there is no radio-tuning knob and it's easy to mistake the dual temperature controls for radio knobs.
With this kind of attention to detail on the HVAC controls, can you see how the addition of auto climate control could affect the reviewers' opinions of the car?
As for the LX not getting higher marks than the GLS in fit-and-finish, here is a comment from the current comparo:
The Azera's interior rivals that of some more expensive luxury sedans, with soft, gathered leather seats; nicely detailed trim; and ample room for passengers.
So CR does notice things like leather vs. cloth seats. The leather interior of the LX looks and feels much richer than that of the GLS (you'll recall the "terrycloth towel" comments that have been made about the GLS' interior). That's why I think cars like the Accord EX V6, Camry XLE V6, and Sonata LX (Limited for 2007) would outscore the more plebeian versions.
Handling is secure but not particularly agile; the car has notable body lean and the steering lacks feedback. The ride is comfortable and quiet, but can become buoyant on the highway. Suspension noise detracts from overall refinement.
What does automatic climate control, and leather seats have to do with body lean, steering feedback, buoyant ride, and suspension noise?
I think I get the point. If a certain magazine , or website, gives a good review to the Sonata, suddenly they are the fair and un-bias survey or review. If the Accord or Camry come out on top, they have a Honda or Toyota bias.
-Loren
I like your reality approach to using the various reports from reporters rather than accepting them as tablets in stone from the mountaintop.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I don't follow your logic on excluding the foreign brands from your withdrawal unless you're trying to make a backhanded remark toward the poster.
>edmunds is very biased against comfort. They are only interested in spine crushing suspensions and sports cars.
And that may well be true. More people interested in cars are the sports and driving thrills-oriented types and they are indeed the ones employed. (Edmunds main writer had a forum and loved his Ford GT. That's not a soft riding car nor is it practical.) I'm not interested in how to go around 30 mph corners at 60 nor am I interested in having quadruple cams on a motor with 10 lb.ft. of torque at 1500 rpm and 350 horsepower at 5500 rpm. But a few people are interested or more to the point, like sports, many are interested in reading about it rather than doing it.
The reviews and reception of the Sonata have been very interesting reading here. It's a car that's showing up in my area owned by a lot of practical looking people. There seem to be a few who have the koolaid from their favorite brands but there are others talking who are willing to open new bottles and find that satisfying new drink.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Bad for GM.
Nissan's sales and market share are down in both the US and it's home market, Japan.
Renault is a mess in Europe.
GM is turning around. They just downsized more employees than their target. New SUVs and pickups are doing very well. Impala is now the 3rd best selling sedan in the US.
And they outsell Toyota and about everyone else in the surging China market. Sales also increased dramatically in the South American market. Just because a lot of Yups like to stick up their noses at American products, does not mean this company won't do well.
If you don't think its a success, than I guess you didn't buy GM 2 months ago at 19+. Today it is 29+. I like making 50% on my money. And more good news is coming!
I would suggest selling now. The merger is not going to happen, and the stock will go right back down. If it weren't for full size truck sales, Chevy, Ford, and Chrysler would be in bigger trouble than they are now. The Toyota Tundra is beginning to take a lot of their truck sales. And now Honda and Nissan are also getting into the truck business. I think this is bad news for Chevy, Ford, and Chrysler.
PS, I bought GM at 17 and sold at 27. Happy as a clam. But I wouldn't suggest buying at 29.
I really would like to hear more about the Altima engine fire recall.
~alpha
This could prove to be good for GM/Renault/Nissan if you really think about it. GM has the dealer network Renault needs to re-enter the U.S. market. Everyone seems to think of GM as being dead and gone. Pretty sad Americans can care less about its own industrial base.. anyhoo.. Not as bad as many may feel. read the articles about this possible merger. Ford would be the last true domestic auto company.
What channel was Autoweek on? I don't notice in anymore on cable. It used to be on PBS.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
This didn't happen overnight. All three detroiters have one foot out the door and are reaching back for their hats before switching off the lights.
They are just taking care of No 1, the shareholders... as they should. They've been read the riot act by both the unions and their own boards so they are taking steps to make the most money with the least cost.
They should be applauded as good caretakers for their shareholders. Any other applause from the US public who sees them as the primary 'wavers of the flag' and last bastions of the American working class might be withheld.
I think it's time that we get back to the sedans that are in this class, please...
The sincerest form of flattery.
Today's mid-sized sedan quiz: Only two cars in this class offer a feature that will be very popular today in the U.S. What are the cars, and the feature?
Are we talking safety? Electronic baubles? Engine/tranny choices?
Fulan and Camry offers a 6-speed Auto...
New Altima and Camry have keyless starting...
I dunno!
Plus, most US states require license plates on the front and back so I'd think this is probably one of the states that do not require front plates.
At the very least, he is demonstrating a total lack of pride for the brand behind the plate.
Plus, most US states require license plates on the front and back so I'd think this is probably one of the states that do not require front plates.
It's Louisiana, (no front plate required) What's the point.
Don't read into this. I am in no way saying the Honda Accord or Toyota Camry are unreliable or lack quality. I would be a fool to say so. These are two very fine sedans at just about any trim level. What I am saying is consumers are making other choices, this segment is very tight and close in all aspects.. Cheers... :shades:
Is that front plate super-imposed? The grass reflecting off it, surrounding the squeeze your cheeks H, appears to be better maintained than the unkempt grass directly in front of the car.
And what is that red thing with the high rise spoiler next to the Sonata? The Sonata looks like "class." The red thing is kinda ugly.