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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread
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true. the new accord coming out next fall should help. especially one with a diesel engine meeting the new emission standards. but the fit fits with today's gas prices.
I think a V8 would be great for these vehicles (especially the Ridgeline). It would give them a higher payload (towing) capacity. This would attract more buyers (who need to pull, and carry heavier loads).
Who do you believe for 0-60 numbers anyway?? They are all over the place when you look at other reviews/data/specs??
i didn't bring it up, another Fusion owner did.
You raise a good point, which is why it is good to stick with one source when referring to acceleration numbers. Such is the reason I posted all from one magazine. Car and Driver uses whatever method brings the best result, such as brake-torquing an automatic (although not always the method used by the average driver). Consumer Reports on the other hand just stands on the gas pedal. I always do my best to use only one-source, that tests cars in similar ways.
That's really too bad, since many 4-cylinder's (like my 06 Accord among others) are smoother than some V-6s (think GM 3.8 from my neighbor's Oldsmobile).
When will it stop? When people stop buying them. Some people want all the power they can get. And are willing to pay more (for the cars, and the gas) to get it. Personally, I am quite content with 240hp, and 25-30mpg.
I was afraid my post would come off like I meant that it was underpowered, because I really didn't...only to say that it is "RELATIVELY" underpowered when compared with its competition. I do not feel that any midsize car over 180 hp could be called underpowered, unless it just happened to be really heavy or have bad transmission tuning...I'll say it again to prove my point...my 166 hp I-4 is PLENTY powerful for me, and any over and above that would be icing on an adequate cake. I guess the point I was trying to make and possibly the one MT was making also, was that the other automakers offer more of that horsepower "icing" than Ford does, which is true. It's not down on power unless compared to the other competitors, in which it is less powerful.
Wikipedia says that a 2 door tsx will be here for the 2008 model year. So guessing the TSX will have SH-AWD and/or the RDXs 2.3l turbo 4 shouldn't be too far off.
I guess acuras will use the SH-AWD monkier and ATTS is for honda.
Good Night All
-Cj
To me 160 HP or so is plenty...or more meaningfully an acceleration time along the lines of what the better of these cars ususally get (typically around 9.5 s for 0-60 by CR's tests) is fast enough.
There are sometimes factors other than HP that affect acceleration times. The 4 cyl. sonata has about the same HP as Fusion/Milan yet acceleration time is a full second slower (10.5 vs. 9.5 sec, according to CR). Not sure how much of this is the result of 5 speed transmission vs. 4 speed. The weight of the two cars tested by CR was almost identical, the sonata was only 60 pounds heavier...so that would not account for the difference in times.
A lot of it, apparently. In a 4-cylinder especially, gearing is important to make the most of a more limited torque band...In my 4-speed 96 Accord, punching it on the freeway will cause it to kick down to 3rd gear (at 70MPH) and something like 4,500 PRM, but it won't go to 2nd gear because it is too short and would redline. In my 5-speed 06 Accord, it will go from 5th to 3rd gear, putting RPMS in a much more optimum place for max power (around 5,500 RPM - much closer to the power peak).
Given that, it is annoying that some manufacturers continue to stick substandard 4 speed automatics in their 4 cylinder cars. I am glad a few of them will let me have a 5 speed automatic with the 4 cylinder.
Honda is not going to do that or should they. The Accord gets expensive enough as it is and Honda doesn't want to infringe on the TL. The upcoming Altima has much reduced torque steer and I think Honda will be able to design the front suspension as to handle the extra power.
The TSX is the sporty "Accord". Except this time the next generation TSX won't take a back seat to the Accord's V6 power as it will have the fore mentioned turbo.
I agree too that 200HP is enough for a family sedan in my opinion. Heck if you want a race car or sports sedan they offer these too in many makes and models. I guess I look for substance. I want more standard options to be at the consumers fingertips. Things like stability control, longer warranties, rear back up cameras, rear back-up sensors, more airbags ect...
the most common fusion will not be underpowered compared to the most common competing models.
you did post all those acceleration stats, so i was replying to your post.
But only because scape mentioned it was off in acceleration by only tenths...I just filled in the blanks for readers who may not know where the Fusion stands. It is indeed between 0.5 sec and about a second behind its competitors, which backs up what both scape said, and my words as well. I'll say it again...acceleration is not my major selling point in a car; economy was much more important to me ( I'm on a college kid's budget!!! ) and for that, 166 hp and 30 MPG avg is good with me!
'college kid on a budget' (with 2 cars)? which way is the wind blowing?
I'll agree, I can see where it looks questionable from your perspective...I'd be saying the exact same thing if I didn't know the full story, so here it is.
...I had P.A.C.T. (prepaid Alabama College Tuition) which my parents bought when I was 3 years old ($5,100 at the time - it pays full tuition, although bought at a price much cheaper; quite a good government program!). So my school was paid for. I got a $16,000 academic scholarship to the University of Alabama at Birmingham also, but since my school is paid for, that money comes in the form of a check to me, to the tune of $2,000 per semester. That $16,000 was going to get me a new Civic (with some of my own savings kicked in of course), but my grandmother (being incredibly generous) told me that I wasn't going to drive my 6'4" body in a compact car, so she kicked in the difference in an EX Civic and an EX Accord. So, yes, college kid (I'm a sophomore) on a budget (who works part time when not in school) who appreciates the economy of a 4-cylinder car. I've explained that to others before (it is a little complicated, and I can see how it looked like I was talking out of two sides of my mouth, but I'm really not). That help clear things up a bit, I hope?
put more simply:
College Tuition was already paid + $16,000 scholarship = $16,000 net to me
$16,000 of mine + $4,xxx from my grandmother = My new Accord EX.
By the way, this is the grandmother who gave me the 1996 LX also...she drives cars and then gives them away to various neices, nephews, etc...
My job has me traveling around the world occasionally. And in Japan, they sell the Honda Accord/Toyota Camry- and although those cars are #1/#2 in the US and Canada, in Japan neither is even in the top 15- they are considered luxury cars there. For them, and much of the rest of the world, 1.5 litre cars are the norm, they have been living with high fuel prices for years. And if gasoline keeps going up (anyone's guess, some think it will come down, some think it will go up), then smaller cars or dieselized versions may become the norm.
And you know what- in Europe and Japan and Latin America, the people there seem to get around just fine!
And you know what- in Europe and Japan and Latin America, the people there seem to get around just fine! "
You really hit this one right on the head!! I admit, we Americans have been heavily spoiled when it comes to gas prices. We drive these huge trucks/SUVs and cars when comparing to the rest of the world. I really hope gas prices stay about $3 a gallon. This will force people to really look at what they drive and why?
A funny story: Wife and I were out and about. We were in a shopping mall area and the lot was pretty full. We noticed a woman in her Ford Expedition trying to squeeze into a parking spot. She tried and tried to fit this tank into a spot for a mid-size car or smaller SUV. So, I waited and watched for a minute. She became frustrated and waved me into the spot..
I didn't say that at all. I like plenty of reserve power. 160hp gives you adequate reserve power for passing and merging. Less than 160hp in a wide, 3200-3500 pound midsize probably wouldn't have the reserve power I would feel comfortable with. The laws of physics catch up, and you pay somewhere. My last 6 cars had 4 and 5 cylinder engines, with 120 and less hp. The only one I felt good about the reserve power was my Jetta, but it was a stick shift, and pretty light.
1) Its superior smoothness over a 4 cyl.
2) Power after a turn (it really helps when you're in a tight left turn situation into a large busy street with oncoming traffic at your tail after you make the left, and you can get to about 45 mph in a hurry)
3) Faster passes on the freeway
But about 80% of the reason why I like a V6 is 1) the smoothness. So someone like me wouldn't discriminate that much between the 268 hp Camry, the 244 hp Accord, and the 234 hp Sonata. They are all equally smooth.
I agree that 160hp is a bare minimum in a ~3000 pound family sedan. Any less, and 50-70mph passing time and on-ramp aceleration suffer.
Since the Camry and Jetta have less than 160 hp, it seemed to me that you were saying cars like the Camry and Jetta do not have adequate power for your needs.
I can count on one hand, and have several fingers left over, the number of times in the past ten years where I had to floor the accelerator on a car for passing or freeway on-ramps. And these were not very powerful cars, e.g. 125 hp Mystique, 130 hp 626, 115 hp Sentra, 135/138 hp Elantras, 180 hp Grand Caravan (but over 2 tons). Maybe that is because I don't drive on two-lane highways very often, and when I do I prefer to drive the speed limit. Getting around a lumbering tractor doesn't require that much power.
One alternative to increasing hp in family cars is for everyone to SLOW DOWN and use some common courtesy on the highways and byways. Those cost a lot less than gas.
The ~3000 pound Jetta is just under 160 HP at 150 HP, CR test of 45-65 mph acceleration was 6.0 sec. Fusion/Milan 4 cylinder time was 5.9 sec. Sonata was 6.3 sec. Any of these are adequate, but note that the one with the highest HP was the slowest. The Jetta has a 6 speed ATX, the Fusion/Milan 5 speed, and the Sonata a 4 speed.
For comparison a couple V6 times for 45-65 are 5.5 sec for Fusion/Milan and 5.0 for Sonata.
Actually, the base Jetta is approxmately 3,300 lbs (quite heavy given its compact interior). This is about 100 pounds more than the Accord (3,192 lbs). The 6-speed transmission is the key to its quick time. A Mazda 6i weighs 3,166, and a 2006 Camry LE weighs 3,164. As I'm looking at these numbers, it seems the Jetta needs a little "Jenny (Craig)"!
I'd refer to the Jetta of "back in the day" to the "good ole days", at least from a design standpoint. Today's Jetta is like a Corolla with a 40% markup. Very different from what Jetta once was.
Edmunds is about cars...all cars. It's about helping people in the market make informed buying decisions.
"Prices paid", "problems", "comparison of different models."
None of these midsized cars are "performance cars or sports cars." Look at the topic you are posting to "160 HP For a Family Sedan."
Agree! Well said. But,,, it's a personal preference. I like to nudge my car occasionally to "stay acquainted" with it. I can certainly understand those that baby their car for economy reasons or they like to take extra good care of it. That's what I do most of the time, but I do like to play occasionally.
Adequate power for my NEEDS, yes they do. Adequate power for my WANTS, not really. I drove a 4cyl Accord for 12 years, and was satisfied with the power 90% of the time. Now, with a V6, I am satisfied 99% of the time. This time, I wanted a little more satisfaction.
Indeed! Maybe once every couple of weeks I'll tackle my favorite on-ramp at a higher-than average speed (it's curvy, and has room at the end for aggressive acceleration). Other than that (a once-a-month romp on the gas pedal; but never floored or ABS-inducing tire squeals), I drive like grandma, in the name of mileage.
Anyway, enough "social philosophying". Let's get back to talking about how y'all love to tear around in your hunkin' family car machines.
Natural gas prices are going up, along with petro and coal.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
This is off topic, but the best that we can do in the US is to refine jetfuel (kerosene) from coal (and we are the Saudi Arabia of coal!)- old technology, the Germans were doing it in WW2. But the cost of a large scale plant is $4Bil at this point- but since aircraft account for almost 15% of our oil consumption, it still may be worth it.
No short term solutions, other than increasing fuel efficiency (hybrid or otherwise) or just going to lighter vehicles. Can't repeal the laws of thermodynamics.
The folks who drive all these V6s are not doing that for the most part. At least where I live, most drivers are very pokey when accelerating. I swear their cars never see rpms over about 2500. I think they must buy the V6 because the 4 is too slow at 2500 rpm.
OTOH, my gas pedal will hit the metal from time to time...even if I am driving a 160 HP car.
OTOH, my gas pedal will hit the metal from time to time...even if I am driving a 160 HP car.
I'm with you bro. I went to a 260hp TL, coming out of a 2002 I4 Accord (which was actually quite peppy), and you better believe I test out those horses fairly often, cause for the most part, with bumper to bumper driving, you don't get much of a chance otherwise.
I'm no racerboy. But I do test out the goods. Why buy a 260hp car is you're not gonna use that power? Most of these mid-size sedans can jam it too. Just cause these are 'family' cars doesn't mean us family guys have to spend our driving days in the slow lane.
What's out right now? Hybrids, diesel, E85, and natural gas is only other alternatives out now. If I bought a new car today and in 5 years gasoline became too expensive, what would be the most best and most inexpensive vehicle to buy in todays market?
True Hybrid sedans available: Honda Civic, Toyota Prius, Toyota Camry and coming soon Nissan Altima. All hybrids are running sticker price and in some cases over.
Civic: MSRP-$22,700 (no available options), Dest. chg.-$550
Prius: MSRP-$24,130 with Package #4, Dest chg.-$580
Camry: MSRP-$26,480 (no options selected), Dest. chg.-$580
Altima: MSRP-? Definitely will sell at sticker price and have a long list of options, like all Nissans. My guess MSRP for a Altima hybrid is around $28,000.
The only diesel sedan is VW Jetta. I doubt anyone is getting it at invoice. I think your lucky to get $500 under sticker.
Jetta: MSRP-$23,939 with rear side airbags, rubber mats, trunk liner, and front and rear splashguards, Dest. chg.-$630
E85 sedans are limited to only the Chevy 3.5L Impala. This sedan can be bought at invoice and has a $2,000 rebate for 2006.
Impala: MSRP-$22,365 with ABS and traction, flip and fold rear seat, Dest. chg-$660 Minus $2,000 rebate after haggling, final price under $20,000!
LNG is also limited to only Honda Civic GX. Another sedan selling at sticker.
Civic GX: MSRP-$24,990, no options avail., Dest. chg.-$550
Guess one could just get the best frugal 4 cyls out like the Civic, Corolla, and Mazda 3. I don't think that midsize 4 cyls save enough for what's to come in the next 5 years.
Maybe improved technology in creating E85 would help. All diesel vehicles will cost more? Maybe with production of compitition will cause prices to drop. Same with hybrids. Until then, I guess the safetest and most inexpensive new sedan purchase for the future would be compact 4 cyls.
Only problem is that with the Camry, at least, you are looking at close to an XLE vehicle. This is not a bare boys CE-type Camry, its not even an LE. It comes standard with things that are options or not even available on a car like Impala. So its really not fair to do an apples to apples financial comparison. Equipment wise, a $24k Camry Hybrid (including the tax credit) is on par with a $24k Impala in terms of content, with the exception of leather.