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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread
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Check here in what needs work and here in paragraph2.
If torque steer wasn't an issue, then would it have been addressed? Torque steer was worked on for 2006. Still looking for that 3k thing... Regardless, I like the car and torque steer is only noticed when driven agressively. Besides, it was an example!! :P
-Cj
The post was about CD's Honda bias, so why would CD call the Civic a loser? Doesn't matter whether it was the last gen or the new one.
Also, they didn't even like the new gen Civic; picked teh Mazda 3 over it. But since you don't read CD anymore, I shouldn't expect you to know that.
Well in my case it was a Chrysler tranny at 45,000 miles; $2600
Strut caps on my 97 Camry at 99,000 miles; $400
Household agony on the 86 Olds 88; Priceless..
Putting up with Chrysler LHS blowing HOT air while coming out of NYC in July in 95+ deg temps; then time off from work to make 5 ( count 'em ) trips to the dealer leaving the car and finding another means to get into NYC from 50 miles away. Who needs it.
The RL beat the Lexus GS, THE E-Class, The STS, the 5-Series, and the A6 in a comparo. Who the hell buys a RL over an E-Class, 5-Series, or A6 in the market for one of those cars? The RL is doing so poorly that Honda had to decontent it to try to drum up sales. Are you really going to tell an E-Class driver about getting an RL? Lunacy.
The aforemetioned Accord V6 beating a Mazdaspeed6 in a sport sedan comparison. Are you serious? Need I say anything about this? It is the Mazdaspeed6, in a sport sedan comparison, need I say any more?
The aforemention Ridgeline debacle.
My brother drives a 2005 Honda Accord and I really like it. I am the one who told him to buy it! I own a Mazda6. He loves to drive my car. There is a night and day difference in the cars, and mine is a normal Mazda6. Now you want me to believe the Speed6, the devil unleashed, can't beat the V6 Accord in a sport sedan battle. Come on now, if I thought that the Gucci wallet the vendor was trying to sell me for $10 smelled fishy, this reaks of a good size whale.
It's not such a shocker to me that a RL would be rated over a 6 cylinder E-class. You may have a point with the 5 series though.
The Mazdaspeed doesn't have the attention to detail and overall quality for me to pick it over an Accord. But I would say you have a very valid point about the Accord being a better sports sedan than the Mazdaspeed. The "sport" in the car should be a high priority in such a comparison test.
I don't know about that. When it comes to performance, the 5-Series is king but when it comes to luxury, always go with Mercedes. While the 5-Series interior is stark and cold, the Mercedes says lusury once you sit in it. We can agree to disagree there, but to me, it is very hard to compete with Merc on luxury.
Back to the topic. The Mazda6 is about "the endless pursuit of fun". It dances around curves, it has a manu-shift in auto form (how come nobody ever faults the Accord for this, please tell me why), it has a connection with the driver that is borderline symbiotic, and that is the normal i and s models. Now when you move up to the Speed6. Don't look for too much attention to detail, look instead for the gas pedal and the short throw shifter.
PS. E-Class is king luxury for the segment but I'd also take an A6 or a GS over an RL as well.
Not quite, I blew a 3.0 v6 in a 93' Thunderturd at a mere 138k miles.
Well, since the Duratec 3.0 was introduced in 1996, your Thunderbird did not have the same engine as the Fusion. Anyway, at 138,000 miles, I would not use the adjective "mere".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Duratec_engine
Regarding CD and CR, it seems to be a fact that most people are happy with their choices- be it their cars, their houses, what cities/areas they live, what foods they eat, their jobs, the looks of their spouses/significant others, etc- maybe that is how they justify their actions. And many people are not very open to change- call it the creature of habit syndrome, whatever! And I still think that if we take the passion out of it, most cars will give us conveyance from point A to point B just fine. And for a lot of people, that is all that they want. And believe me, I know lots of people that own BMW's, Mercedes, Jaguars- and they admit to having horror stories about maintenance frequency and cost- and then they just keep buying them anyway- they just love 'em!
The Ridgeline was picked up by a lot of publications so I guess then you would have to lump them all together.
Also, I have driven both the Acord as well as the Mazda6 extensively; I can't see the 'night and day' difference you point out. Yes, it handles better, but its not a night and day difference. Wish I could say the same about interior fit and finish.
Very subjective. All these statements "dancing around curves, no manumatic, borderline symbiotic, don't look for attention to detail etc," I drive a 330i that has one of the best manumatic shifters, but rarely use it, its just nowhere close to a manual. But yes, the Accord should have it, since most of its competition does, and I am fairly sure the 08 will have it.
Coming back to the Mazda6 v/s Mazdaspeed6 discussion, a lot of publications like the 6 over the speed, because of all teh extra weight carried by the speed over its front axles. Its not all about how quickly a car gets to 60.
Anyway, we were talking in general about perceived bias towards GM/Ford v's Japanese/Koreans, this kinda got out of context.
That said, the new 3.5 DT currently in the MK and scheduled to replace the old DT across the line - a genuine leap forward for Ford albeit a little late. Expect, however, some of that reliability to take a hit especially if it is combined with those 6 speed trannies.
Wrong. Ford announced it's 5 yr/60K mile powertrain warranty first. GM then countered with it's 5 yr/100K mile warranty. Which is really more like a 60K-75K mile warranty for the vast majority of folks who drive 12K-15K miles per year. Smart move on GM's part to make it look better than it really is. But Ford beat them to the punch.
If we were to replace our main "family" car, it would be out of warranty in less than 2 years (It is a 2005 EX Accord with 68,000 miles on it now - and we live 14 miles from where they drive it to work).
I don't think it's a conscious decision by the media, but it sure works out that way. Maybe with all the Toyota (and a few Honda) recalls that will change. Unless you were tracking recalls outside of the media and then watching to see how they got reported (which I and many others have done for the last couple of years) you wouldn't know any better.
If you asked John Q. Public who has had more recalls recently - Ford or Toyota - they'd probably say Ford even though it's not true.
Again - I'm just asking for a level playing field (for everyone, not just Ford).
The regular mazda6 come in either a I4 or V6. The V6 has extra weight in front.
The speed6 is a turbo 4, not sure the turbo adds a lot of weight...but whatever it adds would certainly be less than the V6, wouldn't it?
I think Ford should counter with a 5 yr/300K mile warranty. It probably won't cost them any more than GMs 100K mile version.
The regular mazda6 come in either a I4 or V6. The V6 has extra weight in front.
The speed6 is a turbo 4, not sure the turbo adds a lot of weight...but whatever it adds would certainly be less than the V6, wouldn't it?
The MazdaSpeed6 is AWD so it has the added weight of the AWD system, but that would be in the back, not the front. I would think even with intercooler, the Speed6 front would be lighter than the regular Mazda6. Might have to pull out the bathroom scales :P
But it doesn't work out that way. Just your perception. I read about the Scion recall this week. It wasn't hidden.
In another forum the recent spate of Toyota recalls was discussed at length. One factor overlooked is that one might ( should? ) expect a recall on every single vehicle on the road now at sometime during its life. Why? The stigma about a 'recall' [ gasp horror ] is disappearing like the stigma of divorce disappeared in the 60's.
Recent recalls:
Durango cupholders !!!!!
Highlander carpeting !!!!
With computers on board and the access to wireless services future vehicles may just have a 'recall' light installed like a 'Maint Req' reminder. It's a far different political and business environment now than it was before the Ford/Firestone mess.
Recalls? '..eh - so what.. don't inconvenience me and just fix whatever it is'
The additional weight is from the AWD hardware, and not just in the rear; the suspension components all round are heavier.
What I fail to understand is that is this was true, why hasn't Hyundai suffered from the same bias, especially since their earlier cars were nothing to write home about (around the same time Ford/GM quality was tanking)? Put out a good car and you will get good media, even if you are Ford or GM. Case in point: Fusion, Aura, Sonata, solstice,
So what makes your perception more correct than my perception?
Every time Ford makes a recall (even a small one), it's reported on MY local news. I've only seen one Toyota recall reported in the last year and that was reported in the same story as a Ford recall.
If your media is different, that's great. Mine isn't.
Interesting... so I went to MyCarStats.com to check out what the numbers in fact are:
Herebelow are the number of recalls ( not units involved ) for Ford and Toyota grouped by similar products for the years 2006 - 2005 - 2004 - total.
Compact autos:
Focus - 1 - 3 - 3 - 7 Total
Corolla - 2 - 2 - 3 - 7 Total
Midsized autos:
Fusion new model
Camry - 1 - 1 - 2 - 4 Total
500... - 1 - 3 - 0 - 4 Total
Avalon - 1 - 2 - 0 - 3 Total
Small SUV
Escape - 1 - 2 - 2 - 5 Total
RAV4 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 1 Total
Minivans
Freestar - 2 - 2 - 3 - 7 total
Sienna - 0 - 1 - 2 - 3 Total
Midsized SUV's
Explorer - 2 - 2 - 2 - 6 Total
4Runner - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 Total
Freestyle - 1 - 2 - 0 - 3 Total
Highlander - 0 - 1 - 2 - 3 Total
Large SUV's
Expedit/Excurs - 4 - 5 - 4 - 13 Total
Sequoia/Land Cr - 0 - 0 - 1 - 1 Total
Compact trucks
Ranger - 1 - 1 - 4 - 6 Total
Tacoma - 2 - 3 - 4 - 9 Total
Large Trucks
F150, F250, F350 - 8 - 6 - 11 - 25 Total
Tundra - 1 - 4 - 6 - 11 Total
This doesn't include all the products but the summary for just these main categories is
Ford... 76 Total recalls for MY 2006, 2005, 2004
Toyota. 42 Total recall for MY 2006, 2005, 2004
Now you were saying....
Because the bias is against Ford. Look at how Ford has been bashed lately for it's problems, then look at the problems at Chrysler which have almost gone unreported by comparison. DCX has 50,000 2006 vehicles sitting in the parking lot waiting for dealer orders. They'll almost certainly have to dump them into rental fleets at a huge loss to get rid of them. Yet when the story broke nobody seemed to care.
Go and drive it yourselves and then you'd put your precious Accords in the pasture.
NO WAY Can anyone who is sane even compare the Speed6 to a Crappy Accord. Even 07 Altima is going to be better than your precious accords.
I've had it with the Accord diehards. They bash everything under the sun and yet the Accord is always perfect - 5 words for you Accord diehards - "Lay off the crack pipe"
I've driven the mazdaspeed 6 and I've driven the Accord - first one is an awesome sports sedan - the other one is an average family sedan period. :mad:
So according to you, its only against Ford, not GM now?
Plese re-read my posting earlier; why is it that the Fusion has not got bad media?
As far as DCX is concerned, DCX is not losing money hand over fist; in fact today's WSJ has reported them to have a net substantial net profit 541Millioon Euro- albeit lower from last year. Chrysler Group loss is also mentioned, which is huge. I wonder why DCX is making money while Chrysler independently is losing? Could it be because one makes Mercedes and the other makes Dodge/Chrysler (which other than the 300 does not have anything to write home about, including the new Sebring)?
Go and drive it yourselves and then you'd put your precious Accords in the pasture.
NO WAY Can anyone who is sane even compare the Speed6 to a Crappy Accord. Even 07 Altima is going to be better than your precious accords.
I've had it with the Accord diehards. They bash everything under the sun and yet the Accord is always perfect - 5 words for you Accord diehards - "Lay off the crack pipe"
I've driven the mazdaspeed 6 and I've driven the Accord - first one is an awesome sports sedan - the other one is an average family sedan period"
Please read my posts carefully. Where have I bashed the Mazdaspeed6? I can get you an English translator if you need, for better comprehension.
Your post is all subjective; Mazdaspeed6 an awesome sport sedan while Accord an average family sedan. The Mazdaspeed 6 is not even a direct competitor to the Accord, usually it gets compared with the regular 6.
Also, it may be helpful to you to understand that this is a discussion forum; putting any amount of periods after your statements or calling names will not stop people posting their views.
When you do throw away the crack pipe you are on right now, please make sure you get out of the habit...
For calendar year 2006, Ford (Ford/Lincoln/Mercury) has issued 9 recalls and Toyota (Toyota/Lexus) has also issued 9 recalls.
All I am saying is, if you make a good car, it will get good press/media. Is this an incorrect statement in your opinion?
In this context, I'm talking about general media - newspapers, television, general magazines. I'm not talking about automotive publications that only enthusiasts read. I'm talking about the local 6 pm news and USA Today or the local paper that the average person would read or watch. Ford problems generate headlines - others do not.
No, I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is that the media bias has unfairly influenced the public perception that a Honda Accord or Toyota Camry have better quality than a Ford Fusion when the objective data shows that it is not true.
There are plenty of reasons to buy an Accord or Camry over a Fusion or Milan, but better quality isn't one of them.
OTOH the Toyota recalls earlier this year also made the front pages - even though it wasn't personal.
Go to the NYTimes website and you'll see all the stories of national/business import shown equally. There's no 'for' or 'against'.
Toyota/Honda has build up (and keep) a good reputation over the last 20 years. During the same timeframe Ford and GM managed to trash the reputation they've built back in the 50's and 60's. The result: people just stop buying Ford and GM. One can't deny that both Ford and GM are making an effort to get back into the game with several good products like Fusion and Auro but reputation isn't built over night (especially given their previous track record). It requires time. I honestly believe that if Ford and GM can keep rolling out good products one after another sooner or later the customers will think twice before rushing into their local Honda/Toyota dealers.
Just look at the success stories like Hyundai then you'll get what I was talking about. I personally don't think Hyundai is THERE yet but at least they are on the right track. Another 4 or 5 years of good reputation will put them side by side with the big boys.
OK now we are speaking about the vehicles. So look at the one of the first thing buyers who research vehicles look to in making their decisions. Let's say safety..
IIHS moderately priced midsized autos
The Fusion was dead last in this analysis last year.
Now I realize that for 'next' year all was to have been solved but just in looking at the IIHS comparison your statement above is just not accurate.
It's the fault of Ford management to allow this to occur - allowing it's flagship to be at the very bottom of the heap in it's initial crashtest worthiness last year. But to exacerbate the situation after adding standard SAB's the Fusion's 'A' rating sticks out like a sore thumb. It's inexcusable for the management of Ford.
So as it stood when it came out .. No, the Fusion was not the equal of the Camry or Accord.... or any other midsized vehicle for that matter.. it was the worst in crashtest worthiness. It still is not the equal of the others.
I am not nit picking; this whole argument is over the statement made earlier that Ford/GMs problems are due to the media bias, please go back a few pages and see where it all started
There are plenty of reasons to buy an Accord or Camry over a Fusion or Milan, but better quality isn't one of them.
The only example you are able to come up is the Fusion/Milan, which I from the beginning am agreeing are good cars, in fact I am using their example in all my posts as good cars.
Would you argue that the general perception that the Accord/Camry quality is better than Ford/GM cars other than Fusion (to make the debate easier)? I keep repeating, make a good car, you will get good media, as the Fusion has. You never replied to my query as to why the Fusion has got good all round media, even though its from Ford.
Ford has been in the news more for negative reasons than positive, that true, but the reason is that most of the news regarding Ford has been bad. What positives would you want the media to pick from the mess that Ford is today (1.98B loss in Q3)?
How is this to be solved? It may not be last now, but it is still near the bottom in IIHS rankings and is the only midsize that does not get "good" on their frontal test.
However, the NEW Ford models like the Mustang, 500, Fusion and the upcoming Edge and their Lincoln/Mercury counterparts are proving to be very reliable vehicles with very good and in some cases industry leading quality. You can't take an entire lineup of vehicles and make them perfect overnight. But whatever Ford has changed in their engineering and manufacturing is working so far and will trickle down to all products as they are redesigned.
Yes, the Fusion has less than perfect crash scores. That might be one of those reasons to pick a CamCord instead if that concerns you. I don't personally believe it's less safe in a real world crash scenario, but that is a valid criticism.
You are either missing the point completely or selectively ignoring/confusing the issue. Of course it makes sense to compare the Fusion/Milan to the Accord/Camry. Our discussion was about the perceived media bias against Ford; and the Fusion is NOT a car that has been persecuted by the media.
However, the NEW Ford models like the Mustang, 500, Fusion and the upcoming Edge and their Lincoln/Mercury counterparts are proving to be very reliable vehicles with very good and in some cases industry leading quality. You can't take an entire lineup of vehicles and make them perfect overnight. But whatever Ford has changed in their engineering and manufacturing is working so far and will trickle down to all products as they are redesigned.
You are just proving my point - the NEW Ford products are better than the OLD Ford product; hence are getting good media. What's not to understand? I repeat my question that you continue to ignore - why has the Fusion not got bad press???
How do you know that the Edges are "very reliable vehicles" when they are just to start arriving at the Ford dealerships? :confuse: How many Edges have you seen on the street? So far I've seen NONE.
What are you talking about? Have you even driven a Jetta GLI? I don't think so. The reason I didn't mention it is because I thought it wasn't relevant at the time but let's get into it. The GLI is a sports family sedan ready, willing, and able to be compaired to the Speed6. The Accord is just a family sedan. When you add that s word,.. sport, it actually means something. The Speed6 out handled, out accelerated, and out stoped the Accord. What more do you want from a "sport" car? Isn't that the critieria for "sport" sedans? Or are you going to make up your own where the Accord will win?
"Maybe you like the Mazdaspeed 6 but who buys it (this is in line with your thinking, since according to you, as no one buys the RL, it can't win a comparison)."
Okay, think about it this way. Do people who buy a Mazdaspeed6, buy it for prestige?? No. Do people who buy a 5 Series or RL buy it for prestige, HECK YES. Those spending the cake, don't see the RL in the same light. That is why I spoke about the amount of people buying them. The Speed6 may have discounts but it doesn't have the holes in the argument like the RL comparison does. I mean really, an RL over a 5 Series? Are you serious? Notably, that was the only line you could find to disagree with in a paragraph of text on that subject. You are going to nickle and dime me until either I am penny less or I admit the Accord rules.
"Also, I have driven both the Acord as well as the Mazda6 extensively; I can't see the 'night and day' difference you point out."
Good thing you have driven both, me and my brother own both. So let's see a person's test drive versus two people's years of experience.... :confuse: Which one to rely on? And the Accord driver of the two brothers says the Mazda is significantly different. And if you see a difference in the regular 6 compared to the Accord, imagine what it would be like in a Mazdaspeed6. More power, AWD, short throw shifter, etc.
PS. I would rather be penny less.
The consumer mags, obviously, have a different set of priorities (safety/FE/reliability) than the enthusiast mags which tend to value performance over all else. And the consumer is no different, there are folks out there that will buy something just because of the number of airbags it has, the FE that it probably doesn't get, how it looks, how fast it goes, perceived reliability and/or resale values - different strokes for different folks.
My point is, there is little possible benefit to anybody in the media to diss Ford products (or GM/DC). If anything, the opposite should be true.
You are completely misrepresenting here. You said CD has a bias and picked the Accord over a Speed6. GLI won that comparo. According to your theory, shouldn't the Accord have won the comparo outright? The Accord is as different from the GLI as it is from the Speed6. Also, remember, that test was not a sport sedan comparo, but an everyday heroes comparison.
Okay, think about it this way. Do people who buy a Mazdaspeed6, buy it for prestige?? No. Do people who buy a 5 Series or RL buy it for prestige, HECK YES. Those spending the cake, don't see the RL in the same light. That is why I spoke about the amount of people buying them. The Speed6 may have discounts but it doesn't have the holes in the argument like the RL comparison does. I mean really, an RL over a 5 Series? Are you serious? Notably, that was the only line you could find to disagree with in a paragraph of text on that subject. You are going to nickle and dime me until either I am penny less or I admit the Accord rules.
Completely subjective and purely opinion. You may think people but and RL for image, I may not. Similarly, you may think people don't buy a Speed6 for image, some one else may think they do (maybe to get away from the mainstream sedan image). Saying I am nickel and diming you does not change anything you said.
Good thing you have driven both, me and my brother own both. So let's see a person's test drive versus two people's years of experience.... Which one to rely on? And the Accord driver of the two brothers says the Mazda is significantly different. And if you see a difference in teh regular 6 compared to the Accord, imgaine what it would be like in a Mazdaspeed6. More power, AWD, short throw shifter, etc.
First of all, I would rely on my own experience rather than someone else, as you would so love me to do. Secondly, I am sorry if I did not elaborate earlier; I owned an Accord for 3.5 yrs, putting 85k miles on that car. In addition, I regularly rent the 6 on official work thru Hertz, so I know what I am talking about. Lastly, I do understand (before you say someone who drives/drove an Accord does not understand sport in sedan) the sport part; I own and drive a 2006 BMW 330i (sport pkg equipped) so have a good feel of what a good sedan feels like.
BTW, most publications and enthusiasts as well, prefer the regular 6 over the speed6 due to, in their opinion, better overall handling of the regular 6.
I am not trying to tell you that the Accord is the best car out there, or even that it is better than a 6; I am saying that it is a myth that the media has a bias against Ford/GM. If you feel differently you are welcome, but please prove it rather than offering anecdotal evidence (brotherly comments etc)
What does it have to do with the merits of the cars, which is what we are supposed to be discussing in this forum? Wouldn't a lot of this fit better in "News and Views?"