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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Pretty safe bet. After pumping money into a Contour for a few years, and then selling it for a fraction of what I expected, I was glad to finally put the whole Ford debacle behind me.

    I love getting lucky. My Contour was 150k miles of driving satisfaction (and that includes the time trial track events). :) I must have gotten the only good one or something. Its okay, the '93 Accord has been payback :sick:
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    LOL! Your both rite!!
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I saw a couple of positive reviews today on the Aura. The reviewers were particularly impressed with the XR. I couldn't find the web page for one of them, but here's the one from USA Today:

    http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/reviews/healey/2006-10-19-aura_x.htm

    Edit: Oh duh. The other review was on Edmunds.com, accessible from the main page. :blush:
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Can someone please explain to me the pros/cons of not having stability control. I would assume that a car with all-wheel drive wouldn't need stability control.

    ESc helps prevent loss of control. I don't think there are any cons in normal driving...if you want to make your car spin-out, I guess ESC would be a problem. I don't think AWD means that there is no additional advantage to stability. An AWD vehicle can still skid/slide...in fact it seems to be the overconfident drivers with 4 wheel drive that end up off the road in snow.

    For driving in snow, I think AWD helps you go, but ESC helps you go where you want to go. My own opinion would put ESC ahead of AWD for safety and control in winter as well as other times.

    I think there are some negatives with AWD, such as lower gas mileage, more weight, less space, and extra repairs bills. AWD also has a much higher upfront cost than ESC.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    Americans like me! are buying Fords
    Actually you are supporting AMERICA better putting your money into Camrys, Accords, Altimas, and Sonatas, at least they are built (and in some cases even sourced) in this country. The Fusion is a Mexican car with a US brand name. And this would not be a unique situation to Ford! With more Americans like you, I guess, the American autoworker really does becomes a thing of the past?
  • chuck1chuck1 Member Posts: 1,405
    I had three Contours with the V6. What fun cars they were to drive. Taught suspension and that Duratec could rev all day long. A car not marketed or priced correctly.
  • chuck1chuck1 Member Posts: 1,405
    I agree the line is "very fuzzy" between foreign cars and American cars. In the case of Toyota (among others) one could make the argument that all the profits do indeed go back to Japan!
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    you need to understand that ESC/traction control systems work by PREVENTING you from doing something, effectively disabling your throttle/tranny responses, slowing your steering, applying your brakes etc. for you. In a word, the car goes 'dead'. In no way do these systems improve what any car is capable of - and may, in fact, stop the car from doing something that you or it may be capable of doing. ABS is kind of the same, it actually lengthens stopping distances in exchange for allowing you more control in a panic stop. And in snow/ice, you might possibly find that traction control will get you stuck in places you might normally have been able to 'drive through'.
    My recommendation is to buy the stability control/traction control because it can prevent you from getting in trouble but ONLY IF you can turn it off!
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Let's not go there, please. We are talking about the cars, not the manufacturers, where profits go, foreign vs. American, etc.

    Thanks.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    Wasn't the Contour just a Mazda with cosmetic differences? I sold a Mazda 626 a few months ago that was 11 years old, and never spent a day in the shop.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    No, the Contour/Mystique was based on the Mondeo from Ford Europe. But just as we learned with the U.S. Focus, just because a car is based on its European counterpart doesn't mean it's as good as or has the same quality as its European counterpart.
  • waygrabowwaygrabow Member Posts: 214
    I just bought a 2006 Mazdaspeed6 which has AWD and DSC (dynamic stability control) for less than $23K. Didn't price the Legacy (a nice car) so I don't know how the prices compare, but that is definitely less than what we paid for my wife's Audi A4 Quattro. Having said that, I think that proper selection of tires is more important than either AWD or DSC. Your tires are THE connection between car and pavement/snow/ice. AWD will help get you moving (not stopping); that is not a safety issue, only a traction issue. DSC will help you out if you attempt to do something incredibly stupid; hopefully a very rare occurrence. For safety you need to be looking more at frame strength, braking ability, airbags, visibility, suspension, and tires. The cars you mention are good choices to consider but don't confuse safety with other fancy features.
  • thesniperthesniper Member Posts: 44
    "I know I made the right choice. In fact.. the money I didn't spend on the Camry/Accord.. I'm going to Maui!!"

    You haven't gone to Maui yet?
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Know Your Knot!
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    For safety you need to be looking more at frame strength, braking ability, airbags, visibility, suspension, and tires. The cars you mention are good choices to consider but don't confuse safety with other fancy features.

    For people like you that never make a mistake (and other drivers coming at you also never make a mistake)ESC is a waste of money. However, for the rest of us, the facts are that ESC is a major life saver. Recent statistics show that it saves more lives than any improvement since seat belts. Accident avoidance is much preferable to surviving an accident... especially rollover and fixed object crashes.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    I agree it's a major life saver in certain circumstances. There is no downside to having it except thinking you are protected any time, any speed, any condition.

    Strong frames trump DSC however.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    ESC/traction control systems work by PREVENTING you from doing something...In no way do these systems improve what any car is capable of...

    I don't think you are correct on that. ESC can apply braking to individual wheels in order to help maintain control.
  • waygrabowwaygrabow Member Posts: 214
    I appreciate that you give me so much credit. But for that other guy, are you saying that in the situation where the BMW with bald tires which rear-ended me on the German autobahn (five-car accident ahead of me) and totaled my car would have been prevented if he had just had DSC? More important than having tread on his tires? More important than the crumple zones on my car which softened the blow? More important than the good tires and brakes which kept me from merging with the pie-up ahead of me? Accident avoidance consisted of using the coefficient of friction to its maximum. Cars on three sides of me and the guardrail on the fourth side. Wearing a seatbelt and maintaining proper vehicle intervals goes without saying.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Actually the profits get reinvested ( and then some ) in this country or Canada normally.

    Multi $Billion plant(s) in TX for the new Tundra.
    100's of $Millions of dollars for the new RAV4 plant in Canada.
    Investments in a new Camry line at the Subaru plant in IN.
    Normal investments in existing plants.

    Just the Tundra investment by itself probably used all the NA profits for the last 5 years.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Nice choice on the MazdaSpeed6. That is my number 1 pick right now.
    I personally would go for snow tires, then stability control then AWD if I was creating a winter wish list. That said, the MazdaSpeed6 is AWD and the ones here are on summer tires so it would need snow tires as well.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    those who need to be reminded - this discussion is about the actual vehicles. It is not about foreign vs. domestic, manufacturer's strategies, manufacturer's corporate and/or production difficulties or anything BUT the cars.

    A number of posts have been removed. My fellow host Kirstie has shared with me her copyrighted formula for Post-B-Gone. I have used it liberally here and I have enough of it that I'm not going to run out any time soon. ;)

    Let's talk about the cars. Please.
  • waygrabowwaygrabow Member Posts: 214
    I agree with your priorities. The first thing I did was buy a set of all season tires ($800+) for the MS6. In some parts of the country dedicated winter tires would be necessary, but I don't think so here. We had Blizzaks on the Audi Quattro, and it seemed like overkill. Now we run all season tires on it and seem to do fine. With multiple vehicles, I get tired of storing many out-of-season tires in the garage.
  • mf15mf15 Member Posts: 158
    The review is online now. Wow I was all set to really want this car, they dont like the suspension too rocky from the over sensitive brakes, not real happy with the CVT or manual gear box, and the real killer the interior, they mentioned cheap but revised it to spartin. They did like the ride good as Accord. Buck Rogers tail lights. Overall the review is terrible for Nissans new effort with the Altima.
    Hopefully other will have different opinions.
    Old Mike
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Overall the review is terrible for Nissans new effort with the Altima.
    Hopefully other will have different opinions

    Most important, remember, is the buyer's opinion, YOU! :)
  • guestguest Member Posts: 770
    Congrats on your Mazda 6 speed. A co-worker bought one about a month ago in dark silver. I like the way Mazda set these up so you can distinguish between a Mazda6speed and a Mazda 6 with all the exterior goodies. The hood makes the car stand-out. Less than $23K! Damn, I paid $23K for a loaded Fusion SEL V6, now I feel robbed.. :shades:
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    No, we booked the trip for late spring next year. A full 10 days in Maui, condo right on the beach!
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    I agree %100 percent!! The consumer is ruler not the media! I saw a new Altima on the road, brand new dealer tags still on. Red and it caught my eye. I like the styling myself..
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    ESC intervention MUST be set to happen at some level LOWER than a car's actual evasive capabililites. Otherwise it wouldn't be a 'safety' system in the first place! And yes it can apply brakes for you as well as slowing throttle, tranny, and steering responses, therefore preventing you from getting yourself in trouble. I have no doubt that the new government proposal to require the systems will save some lives particulary for those of us that have SUV type vehicles, but not without a penalty in drivability.
  • mf15mf15 Member Posts: 158
    Yes I agree that the consumer is the ultimate judge, I am in a good postition to judge since my son owns an 05 Altima SE manual. Nissan worked years to develop the 07 Altima, which has to compete directly with the new Camry and 08 Accord. The bar has been raised by Camry and I am sure that Honda will improrove the Accord for 08,also Fusion and Sonata are now in the picture. Nissans problem if they went cheap on the interior is the same mistake they made with the 02 altima. This car has to be on par/better than the Accord/Camry, if they expect to gain market share without massive rebates. Old Mike
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    ESC can correct small mistakes, but not big mistakes. It will not stop you from hitting the car in front of you, if you're not watching where you are going. And it will not get you around a 25mph corner, if you try to take it at 50mph. I can't think of one time, in my 28 years of driving, when ESC would have prevented an accident. There may be a time in the future, but I think it's a very small chance.
  • jaxs1jaxs1 Member Posts: 2,697
    So, you never needed it. Someone else may have driven 29 years and never had an accident and then proclaim seatbelts are useless since they personally never needed it.
    They would just say something similar to your rationale like "Watch where you're going and you don't need seatbelts!"
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    All I'm saying is the actual percentage of crashes ESC would prevent is very small. Microscopic, is about the size of it. ABS prevents a much larger percentage of crashes, IMO. To hear what people are saying about ESC, you would think crashes would be totally eliminated because of it. Not true, by a long shot.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    It will not stop you from hitting the car in front of you, if you're not watching where you are going. And it will not get you around a 25mph corner, if you try to take it at 50mph.
    We are one iteration away...
    MBZ Pre-safe

    The system will brake automatically if you get too close to the car in front of you (any adaptive cruise control car will do this). Systems in testing read road signs to get curve speed warnings and keep the car close to those speeds.

    And its nice to know I share the roads with such excellent drivers that they need no help from such technical advancements. ;)
  • tenpin288tenpin288 Member Posts: 804
    All I'm saying is the actual percentage of crashes ESC would prevent is very small. Microscopic, is about the size of it. ABS prevents a much larger percentage of crashes, IMO. To hear what people are saying about ESC, you would think crashes would be totally eliminated because of it. Not true, by a long shot

    Actually, a few studies would disagree with you in the amount of accident reduction. In fact, one such study by NHTSA found a reduction of 30% to 67%, depending on vehicle class.
    NHTSA study

    I personally own a vehicle with ESC, ABS, TCS, and AWD (why do vehicles have so many acronyms anymore?) and while I am now longer the "boy racer" of my youth, the above systems have definitely helped me out in the rain and snow we experience in the hills and valleys of south-central PA. ;)
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    For those people who are consistently losing control of their vehicles (can't drive) ESC could prove valuable. The thing (I think) that would prevent more accidents than any safety device, is some basic "driving lessons" given to each driver, before he or she gets a driver's lisence. There are some bad drivers out there. And they are getting more and more distracted, with cell phones and such. They should all just "Shut up and concentrate on driving". When my wife was rear-ended by a girl talking on her cell phone, ESC would not have helped one bit. Laws against cell phone use while driving, may have. The cars don't cause accidents. The idiots driving them do.
  • nj2pa2ncnj2pa2nc Member Posts: 811
    NJ Has laws against using hand held cell phones while driving. Unfortunately it does not seem to enforced. It is unbelievable how many people we saw talking on the phone while driving in NJ. I also agree unattentive driving is a major cause of accidents.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    ESC, nor any single safety feature, can't prevent all accidents. And it can't prevent people from doing stupid things while driving. Can it prevent some accidents and save lives? There is statistical evidence to back that up.

    This will all be a moot point in a year or two, when car makers act (some earlier than others) to put ESC on all cars sold in the U.S. in response to Federal mandate.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    My Accord has Electronic Brake-Force Distribution (no VSA- EX I-4 model). A couple of questions on how this works...

    Does this change brake pressure at indiviual wheels, or just each axle?

    Does this operate all the time, or just in evasive/panic maneuvers (like VSA?)?

    Just curious, if anyone knows.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Does this change brake pressure at individual wheels, or just each axle?

    I think it would control each wheel separately, because each wheel has it's own axle and brakes.
  • 610looper610looper Member Posts: 20
    ESC is stability control and it mainly helps when going around something and there's a loss of traction, or if you you begin to slide sideways and overcorrct turning the steering wheel, it will brake individual wheels to keep you from flipping your car upside down at the worse and/or spinning your car around front to back and into an object.

    I've seen a car flip and personally was in one that did the spinning bit, it had just started raining and I was traveling around a bumpy curve....
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    IMO, of course: a good set of brakes, followed by a vehicle with adequate (but not too much) power, followed by good handling dynamics all rank well ahead of any passive set of safety features. A capable and cautious driver shouldn't need a computer to make driving decisions for him, understanding that it is possible for that computer to 'get in the way' of a potentially life saving avoidance manuever.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    All I'm saying is the actual percentage of crashes ESC would prevent is very small. Microscopic, is about the size of it.

    You're completely ignoring the nature of accidents. They're always sudden, unexpected, and violent. No matter how expert a driver is, he can get involved in an accident. No matter that your reflexes are as fast as a NASCAR racer, ESC is faster. It can help you avoid frontal impact and rollover. The statistics on ESC are stunning. Anyone who is not a believer in ESC (I wasn't) should go to NSHTA and read up on it. Even if you still don't believe in ESC, I think you would still want other drivers to have it. When it comes to safety, we need to think about everyone, not just ourselves.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    I can't think of one time, in my 28 years of driving, when ESC would have prevented an accident.

    And I can't think of one time, in 29 years of my driving, when an air bag would have prevented an injury. Does this mean I should want a car without them?
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Good brakes, adequate power, and good handling dynamics are all important. But I think both active and passive safety features are important: active to give me and my family that extra bit of insurance in case a mistake is made (nobody's perfect) or something pops out of nowhere like a deer or a small patch of black ice; and passive to help protect us from the other drivers out there, and to provide that extra measure of insurance should skillful driving and active safety features not be quite enough to avoid hitting something.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    all true, along with the dangers along the path we take in allowing machines to make decisions for us.
  • venus537venus537 Member Posts: 1,443
    ESC is the biggest thing in safety since seat belts. And frankly the arguments against this feature is maddening. No doubt ABS is a useful safety feature but it's not nearly as comprehensive and useful as ESC. ALL human beings make mistakes and we are ALL capable of being responsible for a traffic accident. You have to be one arrogant individual to think you're above the need for ESC.

    I'm not saying you MUST buy a car with this feature but if ESC ia available in a car you're interested in then it would be wise to get it.

    I know if we all practiced good driving habits then the accident rates would go down much more than what any computer software could accomplished. But good luck in changing human behavior.
  • mazdamotoringmazdamotoring Member Posts: 18
    I remember when the last generation Altima made its debut - the press really likes it, but panned the interior. It seems impossible that Nissan could make the same mistake again, sad but true I suppose. Good news is, they seem to have worked out the dreaded torque steer problems. The keyless ignition is also a nice touch.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Welcome to the 21st century!
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    all true, along with the dangers along the path we take in allowing machines to make decisions for us.

    While I agree that machines are not yet close to being trustworthy enough to make "decisions" for us, ESC, air bags, and seat belts make no decisions. They're there to help protect us when the unthinkable and unpredictable happens.
  • waygrabowwaygrabow Member Posts: 214
    What seems to look like an argument about ESC may just be a misunderstanding about priorities for safety devices. This discussion began with a new college grad who wanted advice on his/her first car purchase with the stated goal of safety being most important. If this new college grad has unlimited funds, then, by all means, make sure that car has every feature available. But this isn't the situation for most new grads. So we need to prioritize what features will give you the most "bang for the buck". ESC won't help much without good tires and brakes. The grad mentioned AWD; that should be a fairly low priority. Now we can discuss suspension, ABS, airbags, frame rigidity & crumple zones, and whatever else is available or can be imagined, and we may have differing viewpoints depending on what situations we are considering. My personal view is that ESC can only make the most of what is available concerning traction, suspension, power, and braking; thus, those features should be of a higher importance. Additionally, there will be situations where accident avoidance is not an option. We must consider not only the likelihood of an accident but also the severity of consequences in such a situation. I still remember being in the middle of a multi-vehicle accident on the autobahn; ESC would have been useless, but being hit from behind and driven into the vehicles ahead of me made frame rigidity and crumple zones potentially lifesaving. My wife and I have ESC on each of our two cars, and we appreciate it, but it builds on the other included features which allow it to be most effective.
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