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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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    waygrabowwaygrabow Member Posts: 214
    My father had a 48 Ford pickup with a MT which you had to "double clutch" when shifting between gears. My first car was a 3-speed on-the-column MT. Then "four on the floor" became a big deal. Have been driving a 5-speed MT for many years. Now I have a 6-speed MT on my latest car. We have four vehicles, two MT and two auto. Both do the job. In town an automatic is more convenient; on the open road the MT is economical and provides greater control. Since even a MT is "automatic" for me, I'll take whichever the vehicle has and generally won't pay extra for the automatic.
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    exshomanexshoman Member Posts: 109
    Couldn't agree with you more. Most of these mid-size cars are boring (including the 2006 Accord 4-cylinder we recently bought). I can't imagine liking this car as much as I do if it had an automatic. It would just be basic transportation, getting us from point A to B (which is just fine for most folks, but I'm one of those increasingly rare individuals who actually like to drive).

    Having a stick shift doesn't make a boring car exciting, but it does make it a lot less boring. Especially with such a sweet clutch/shifter combo like what Honda has.
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    bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    Having a stick shift doesn't make a boring car exciting, but it does make it a lot less boring.

    I have owned 3 stick shift cars, and they were way too much work. If I needed the exercise, I guess I would ride a bike. Besides, how do you shift, sip coffee, and talk on the phone at the same time? That's too unsafe for my taste. ;)

    All kidding aside, I wouldn't mind owning a weekend car with stick shift again. But I (and I suspect most folks) soon tire of the monotony of shifting on their daily commute.
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    lweisslweiss Member Posts: 342
    I have only owned automatics, and maybe I am an unco-ordinated buffoon but my shifting when I do drive manuals is not that smooth. Plust living in a suburb of a big East Coast city deems that I am in traffic mostly, and all I want to do is press on the gas pedal and go. My son owned a Infinity G20 a few years back and that was actually a neat car for him- manual, sunroof, well made- a real "sport sedan".

    But I also consider resale in vehicles when I buy them and with less than 10% of the people wanting manuals, you are really limiting your audience when you want to sell your vehicle.

    Want to have a stressful situation? How about this: teaching your teenage daughter how to drive a manual shift car, she is behind the weel in the left turn lane, the light turns green and she stalls 3 times (!!!), angry people beeping their horns behind her, she starts crying, her Dad says "stay calm, just make sure it's in gear and try again..." Haha- not THAT'S stress!

    And besides, Americans like to talk on their cellphones (dangerous but they do it anyway) and eat/drink in their cars while driving (something the Europeans are appalled at)
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    exshomanexshoman Member Posts: 109
    Thanks, you've given me something to look forward to. My daughter turns 16 in a couple months, and will be picking up her learners permit soon.

    I've already warned her - "You will cry, there's no doubt about it. You'll get frustrated, and want to quit, and say why do I have to learn to drive a stupid stick shift!". I'll probably just grin & bear it.

    Be afraid...be very afraid :P
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    lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    I don't ever remember my wife going through any trying times learning to drive stick at 15.5 and my sister seemed to get the hang of things quickly when I was teaching her. My sister doesn't drive a manual very often so she has to concentrate at at the beginning each time.
    They just need to understand the friction zone and how it works. I also think its helpful to have a handbrake to make them feel more comfortable on hills. In a short time, they won't need it, but its kind of like having training wheels. just makes it a little easier to start out.
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    nj2pa2ncnj2pa2nc Member Posts: 811
    Both our cars have manual transmission. IMO almost 100% of the time driving it is not a hassle. In fact we plan to get a 6-speed in our next car. Maybe if we had to drive in a congested area with alot of lights we might consider a automatic but at this point we will drive our manual hyundai and you can have your automatic honda.WHATEVER MAKES YOU HAPPY
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    jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    I taught my daughter to drive manual about 5-6 years ago. It really was not too bad. She initially prefered the automatic but after she got used to driving a manual, she prefered that.

    The hardest part is starting up from a stop in first gear. My technique with my 3 kids was to first do that on a slight downhill section of a road...makes it a little easier as the car will roll slowly forward due to the hill.
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    to626nto626n Member Posts: 14
    Bland interior (without navigation), styling that is still not for everyone, overly complicated i-Drive, and the price hike. The new G35 and IS350 cost thousands less.
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    andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    Porche-like handling.
    300+ horsepower
    30 + mpg city/highway mixed.
    Bulletproof reliability and durability.

    Now that would be fantastic. Who will be the first to achieve this? Maybe Acura hybrid?
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
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    louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    300+ horsepower
    30 + mpg city/highway mixed.
    Bulletproof reliability and durability.

    Easy to achieve...

    Porche-like handling.

    Dream on...
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    kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Those would not be my negatives. And those comments I apply right back to Lexus and Infiniti. But do your homework about the price difference between all of the vehicles. You are pretty far off base. I can point you to some threads in other forums if needed.
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    lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Porsche-like handling.
    You mean sharp and quirky at the limit? Tail happy? Challenging above 7/10ths?

    As much as I like a sharp handling sedan, I think it would be better if it was more forgiving for most drivers. Even when I was doing time trials, I still did better with the car set slightly softer than the optimum because it made the car so much more forgiving of, eh running out of talent.

    As they say, never run out of room, ideas or talent all at the same time...
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    bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    As much as I like a sharp handling sedan, I think it would be better if it was more forgiving for most drivers.

    Well said. Just because 5% of drivers want their $25K mid-size family sedan to ride stiff and harsh, and have oversteer at the limits is no reason for the other 95% to suffer with it. ;)
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    lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Besides, thats what aftermarket shocks and springs and sway bars are for :P If you can drop ~$1000, you can get totally adjustable suspension that will get even a Camry to spin.

    Thats not to say that a stock suspension should suck. The car should still feel like it can go around a corner and the tires shouldn't start crying at the first clover-leaf ramp. The idea that a car can't handle very well and have decent ride quality was rendered false by a German auto maker. If someone decides they need a car that wallows because they want ride quality, they are selling themselves short.
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    thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Agreed. I also feel that, while many car magazines will complain of understeer at the limits, understeer is the safe way of telling a novice/non-enthusiast driver that they ought to slow down more for the turn they are attempting. Understeer is usually pretty predictable, and easily recovered from. Oversteer is a VERY different story.
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    captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    give up about 5 mpg and it is called a G35
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    Karen_SKaren_S Member Posts: 5,092
    A reporter from a large daily newspaper is looking to speak to current or previous Saturn owners that went to the homecoming events in Springhill, TN sometime around 1994 and 2000. Please provide your daytime contact info to ctalati@edmunds.com no later than Friday, October 20, 2006.
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    elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    I don't think you can have both. No car will handle like a Corvette, and ride like a Cadillac. It depends what is more important to the owner. Seems like most people are more concerned with a smooth ride. That is part of the reason for high Camry sales. I like to be somewhere in the middle. I don't want my car to wallow in turns, but I don't want to feel every pebble in the road either.
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    mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    I think the following cars should be added to the discussion list above:
    Chevrolet Malibu
    Pontiac G6
    Chrysler Sebring/Dodge Avenger
    Kia Optima
    Mitsubishi Galant
    Suzuki Verona

    You can have any opinion you want about those vehicles, but I think they deserve to be included in the discussion list above, since they're similarly priced as the rest of them, and are considered "midsize sedans".
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    bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    If someone decides they need a car that wallows because they want ride quality, they are selling themselves short.

    Agree again. I really don't like wallowing land yachts.

    How far I push my car is limited by G forces. Anything above (I'm guessing) .5G gets very uncomfortable when the blood rushes to 1 side of my body. My car will easily get .8G, and I'm glad it will because of the safety margin. But,,, I won't be paying an extra $10-30K to get another .1G or so on the skid pad.
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    bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    Well, we're discussing Cadillacs, Bimmers, and Porsches, so I think they will slide. :)
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    thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I agree, although I must say I find it interesting that the Verona is still around. I thought Suzuki had killed that thing.

    Does it still make do with a 155 hp Inline-6 as its only engine?
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    w9cww9cw Member Posts: 888
    The Verona is dead. It's not in Suzuki's product line up for 2007.
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    autoboy16autoboy16 Member Posts: 992
    Hopefully it get redone with nissans Altima with that suzuki/nissan deal. NO MORE g6 twins!! Suzuki can make a great car given the way the xl-7, sx4 and grand vitara turned out. Putting the grand-vitara on a car chassis (impala or lacrosse. Something different!) and adding the xl-7's v6 and thats a great sedan! Already at 255hp for a v6. Just interior needs help... Saab 9-3 parts would be perfect for this suzuki. The Suzuki Phantom... Sounds good to me!

    -Cj :)
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    autoboy16autoboy16 Member Posts: 992
    Is any one else hoping cadillac brings over the BLS (not: boring luxury sedan)? The BLS seems like a great car. Using the 9-3 parts was a smart move for cadillac and Gm as a whole.

    image

    image

    If only it made it to the states...
    -Cj :)
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    jaxs1jaxs1 Member Posts: 2,697
    It is not a great car. It is an older unimpressive engine/chassis with a new Cadillac styled body and interior and is smaller than mid size.
    It looks OK in pictures, but that's all there is to it.
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    patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    We can certainly talk about them, but I can't add them at the top. The number of vehicles is limited to nine and that's what we've got. :sick:
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    christy7christy7 Member Posts: 21
    I wasn't sure which thread to post this on, But I wanted to get some of your opinions. I am "this close" to making an offer on a Hyundai Azera Limited with Ultimate package (07). My husband, ever the money conscious one, walks in this morning and says, are you sure you wouldn't be happy with a Sonata? I've not driven a Sonata, and I will probably test drive one today before trying to make a deal on the Azera. But, for those of you who are familiar with both vehicles, if I were to compare a fully loaded, top of the line Sonata (leather, 6CD changer, etc.) what is the primary difference in that versus the Azera? I know the Azera is bigger and has a more "luxury" feel, but have any of you actually liked the Sonata better?
    Thanks in advance for your opinions and experiences with both of these cars!
    Christy
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    dump_truckdump_truck Member Posts: 42
    well you have pretty much answered the question already. the Azera is the larger car, both in body and engine size. It gets accordingly a few less MPG's than the Sonata. At the moment, there are a few more interior color options available. I say at the moment because the Sonata's with more interior color options should be on the lots any day now, if not already in some areas. I would think it is just a personal preference between the actual size of the car you are comfortable with. Yes the interior on the Azera is meant to have a more luxury feel to it, but the Sonata's interior is not shabby in comparison. I would say to test drive both and see which you are more comfortable in, and are more happy with the performance in. I got the Sonata and not the Azera because I personally thought, all other things equal IMO, that the Sonata was the better looking car.
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    autoboy16autoboy16 Member Posts: 992
    Well the 9-3 is a good chassis to build a sport sedan. Its selling ok but still good for a 1st year model. It seems good to me! If it gets gms new 3.6l v6 when brought to the states (and priced under 30k), I think it'll sell over here. It like a a4 competitor! The Car Connection makes the BLS sound good. I think It'll work here.

    Regardless, its the best mixture of parts and chassis GM has done in a long while for an "all new" model!

    -Cj :)
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    guestguest Member Posts: 770
    Ford not going away anytime soon, for those who preach doom and gloom for the blue oval..
    Car sales up 26% over last year, Overall sales up 5% over this time last year.. AND.. Fusion sold over 111,000 units, MKZ sold over 24,000 units, Milan sold over 28,000 units.. If this tide continues for North America this could be the turning point for Ford Motor Company. With the AWD and the new 3.5 coming online for the midsizers, sales are bound to keep on the uptick.. The car company with so much American history, so much American roots.. will survive. ;)
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    goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    Who are these people buying Fords anyway? Not many people around me are buying Fusions or Milans (Zephyrs are more common).
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    backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I see a LOT of Fusions driving around lately. Not many Milans or Zephyrs though.

    Maybe people buy them because they are the best mid-sized cars available from a U.S.-based automaker, and good cars in their own right.
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    bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,601
    The Azera is of course larger and IMO more luxurious, especially with the Ultimate Pkg.

    However, there is that big (street) price difference.
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    scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    Americans like me! are buying Fords.. take a look at my Fusion..http://www.carspace.com/scape2 :shades:
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    meateatermeateater Member Posts: 123
    Americans like me! are buying Fords

    Maybe midwesterners buy them, but in California, Florida, Arizona, metro DC etc. you don't see many Fusions at all....except at the airport car rental lots.

    I'd say 10 to 1 foreign vs domestic cars in these areas, and the truck sector that has been heavily domestic, is starting to ebb towards the Asians.
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    elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Ford not going away anytime soon, for those who preach doom and gloom for the blue oval..
    Car sales up 26% over last year, Overall sales up 5% over this time last year..

    Oh, so this means they will only lay off 5,000 workers this year, instead of 10,000.

    Americans like me! are buying Fords..

    And you can bet they are counting on people like you to buy them. People like me will not buy a car just because it's "American". The only good parts of the Fusion come from Mazda anyway. :P
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    baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    Oh, so this means they will only lay off 5,000 workers this year, instead of 10,000.

    He said they aren't going away, not that they are going to grow or stay the same size. Ford execs themselves said they are cutting everything back to hit a 15% market share which to them is what it will take to be in their sweet spot this day and age. GM would be wise to do the same as there are too many makes out there now. Someone still has to be the biggest but it isn't going to be by the wide margin it once was.
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    lweisslweiss Member Posts: 342
    I live in a suburb of a large East Coast city and I agree that I see relatively few Ford Fusions, but lots of new Accords and Camrys, along with lots of new BMW 3 series and other assorted cars like that. Not that the Fusion is a bad car (or any other of Ford, GM, or D-C sedans), they just don't get much consideration around here, probably related to image (and heck, snobbery too!). I still maintain that Ford's strong dealer network will bring them big sales numbers, look out if they start cutting back on their unprofitable dealers, which I have read is already happening.
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    uconnhuskyuconnhusky Member Posts: 5
    Hi everyone,

    I'm looking to purchase my first new car, I recently graduated from college and safety in a car is my top priority. Living in the northeast,my number one choice is the 2007 Subaru Legacy because it has all-wheel drive. It however doesn't have stability control.

    Can someone please explain to me the pros/cons of not having stability control. I would assume that a car with all-wheel drive wouldn't need stability control.

    Also, is the Audi A4 quattro, which has stability control a "safer" car in the snow than the suburu Legacy?

    Thanks a bunch,
    Uconn
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    bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    But, for those of you who are familiar with both vehicles, if I were to compare a fully loaded, top of the line Sonata (leather, 6CD changer, etc.) what is the primary difference in that versus the Azera?

    You already have some idea, and some good input from the forum. So I'll give you my driving impressions.

    I could not notice any advantages to the base model Azera over the loaded Sonata. Ride, comfort, noise, power, trunk, interior, were all too similar to pay $4K extra for the Azera. The only thing that made me smile was the extra back seat room in the Azera. But, since adults rarely ride back there, it was not a factor for me.

    It's a personal thing, so drive both. Have the passenger stretch out, look around, and feel the space, feel the ride, and listen to the road noise. I just don't see a significant difference.

    The loaded Azera does have a significantly nicer interior and a few features that you may find worth paying for. It just depends on how much the extras are worth to you.

    I think you guys will be delighted with either car. Good luck with your decision. :)
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    scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    "Oh, so this means they will only lay off 5,000 workers this year, instead of 10,000."

    This is all part of Ford adjusting to market share/demand. As much as I hate to see Americans loose thier jobs, its necessary for Ford to survive in North America. This will make Ford leaner, meaner and more profitable in the long run. This will also allow Ford to bring product to market faster and make necessary changes quicker to new vehicles that are introduced.

    "And you can bet they are counting on people like you to buy them. People like me will not buy a car just because it's "American". The only good parts of the Fusion come from Mazda anyway.

    I guess you are saying I didn't shop the market? and just walked into a Ford dealership only? I did shop, for 4 months I shopped and test drove. I drove the Accord/Camry/Sonata/Altima/Malibu/G6/Jetta/Passat/Legacy. I didn't feel it necessary to pay the extra $2-$4,000 dollars for an Accord/Camry for the perceived reliabiltiy advantage. And after owning 3 other Ford products over the last 15 years that gave me excellent reliability gave me even more reason not to pay the extra $$. And now with just over 6,000 miles on my Fusion with no issues.. I know I made the right choice. In fact.. the money I didn't spend on the Camry/Accord.. I'm going to Maui!! :shades:
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    scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    "Not that the Fusion is a bad car (or any other of Ford, GM, or D-C sedans), they just don't get much consideration around here, probably related to image (and heck, snobbery too!)."

    Much of what Ford/GM have to overcome is the "image" card. The media has beat into the publics head so much over the last 10-15 years that Ford/GM cannot and will never build a great vehicle that there are people out there that won't even walk into a Ford/GM dealership to even look or test drive. For those who do look at data, and are willing to shop with open minds will find that Ford/GM do build great vehicles with great value.
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    lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    The most important factor is the driver, the second most important is the tires, and I would say powertrain is the 3rd. You can learn a little bit more about stability control here

    The thing to remember is the stability control only has the same envelope of traction the driver does. If you are skidding on ice, its not going to be able to help very much either.

    Depending on which models you are looking at, the Legacy is considerably bigger than the A4 and the non-turbo Legacy doesn't require premium fuel like the Audi does. Its also considerably less. You might also look at the VW Passat 4motion and the BMW 325xi if you like premium German vehicles.
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    03accordman03accordman Member Posts: 671
    You talk as if the Media is the biggest problem that Ford/GM have had over hte past few years. Gotta be kiddin' and I am sure you know it.
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    w9cww9cw Member Posts: 888
    I apologize in advance, because I'm the last one to cry Wolf, or be construed as a spelling/grammatical [non-permissible content removed], but since I see this all of the time here on Edmunds.com:

    loose = not tight

    lose = to not win, or fail to keep or maintain
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    goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    The 'image' I have with Ford involves things like smelling coolant constantly when I got out of the car (even after having the cars checked up and down for leaks), slipping transmissions (enough where my wife wouldn't drive it at all), poor resale value, breaking low-budget interior pieces (even in a Taurus - their achievement), etc etc.

    I don't need the media, or anybody, to tell me that I should have bought a Honda or a Toyota. Never another Ford.

    I'll bet I'm not the only one with these experiences with Ford.
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    goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    construed as a spelling/grammatical [non-permissible content removed]

    Your absolootely write.
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    booyahcramerbooyahcramer Member Posts: 172
    I'll bet I'm not the only one with these experiences with Ford.

    Pretty safe bet. After pumping money into a Contour for a few years, and then selling it for a fraction of what I expected, I was glad to finally put the whole Ford debacle behind me.

    God bless em, but I'll never buy another Ford either.
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