Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

lilengineerboy

But it definitely wasn't a factor in deciding to buy or not to buy the vehicle.
I bet it was...if it had been ugly or looked out of place, I bet you wouldn't have bought the car.
Perception is kind of neat like that, its all part of how the car feels. I don't think you are out of it at all, I think it met the criteria of not being out of place and it was nice enough to you that you were okay with it.
As far as safety, the wheels are designed so the rim will clapse in a crash, but the middle with be there to deploy the air bag. The steering column should also crush to absorb the energy.
The issue with car crashes isn't one car hitting another, its the inhabitants hitting things within the vehicle. Stopping 200lbs going 60 mph is still a lot of work, using seat belts and airbags and things within the vehicle like the steering wheel to give way and absorb force.

thegraduate

That pic is kind of funny; the speedometer appears stuck at 85 MPH... just goes to show how far along interiors have come, even in Ford Trucks...

jeffyscott

Well, we have to "talk" about something...

I have an old Windstar and do not really like the thin steering wheel. Its okay, its not like it is one of the thin, hard plastic wheels I had in some late 60s cars. We bought the vehicle, but certainly would have preferred a nice thick wheel.

Some cars have a wood steering wheel...I guess that is supposed to look luxurious. I just think it makes for sweaty palms and an uncomfortable steering wheel. I would not buy a car with a wood wheel.

lilengineerboy

Italian cars should have wood wheels. A nice Alfa Romeo with a wood 3 spoke wheel that will impale itself on your chest in a crash, man thats so classy though.
The first cars I drove regularly had 2 spoke wheels. The 70s GM wheel that said AVON, and the plastic k-car wheel that had two tiny horn buttons on the only two spokes which were in my lap and that cracked all the way around. Come to think of it, the Galant had a 2 spoke wheel too, but it had speed sensitive windsheild wipers to make up for it (what's that song...it never rains in southern california).

lightfootfl

I guess you are right about that. (buy or not) I just had to go out to see what I had in the Sonata LX, and it would be the 4 spoke type thing, sort of a fat H on its side. I don't think I ever consiously thought about it. Oh well. Like our fellow contributor said..(jeffyscott).. had to talk about something. Reckon I at least put in part of my 2 cents worth.

lweiss

Actually, Henry Ford's 1896 original car (still meticulously preserved in a glass case at the Henry Ford Museum in Dearborn, MI) didn't have a steering wheel, it had a tiller, which probably was a way of getting exercise in the days before power steering. I don't know when the first car with a steering wheel was introduced. And when Chrysler/GM had one of these concept cars out about 15 years ago, they had the driver in the center with a handlebar type steering- weird, huh? Always wondered why buses and big trucks have these enormous and almost flat steering wheels.

But even the US Military realizes that there is something about a steering wheel- the M1 Abrams tank has a steering wheel that controls the treads and steering (unlike a tracked bulldozer that doesn't-uses levers) and all of our modern submarines have steering wheels with a nice modification to control the up and down motion- kind of like airplanes (I sell software to the military)

ambientflier

What about one of these, with the flat bottom?

1487

Just relax, I assume you own an Accord and you assume everyone finds it perfect in every way. No offense intended.

The trend is towards wheels with small hubs and the Accord's hub is huge which makes it seem dated. I dont like the TL's new massive wheel either, it seems so cumbersome. Mazda, GM, BMW, etc have been going to small hub wheels that barely look like they have an airbag. Big, clunky wheels are more of a 90s thing and they arent attractive on cars. The steering wheel doesnt make a car sporty but a smaller, 3 spoke wheel does seem to convey that the car is a driver's car. Maybe BMW started this, I dont really know.

elroy5

What about this one? Accord coupe. Sporty huh?

bhmr59

Great post, LMAO. That's essentially what I meant, but you said it much better.

bhmr59

Yeah, that shifter really makes the car "sporty", or were you talking about the steering wheel?

Kidding aside, I have yet to see a definition of "sport" or "sporty" as applied to cars. I think it's a hoot to see a Caravan or Dodge Neon and some other cars with the word "sport" printed on their side or rear end.

I'm looking to find the ultimate collector vehicle, a Yugo "Sport."

elroy5

I'm looking to find the ultimate collector vehicle, a Yugo "Sport."

Make sure to get the model with rear defrost, so your hands will stay warm while you push.

bhmr59

Excellent tip. Many thanks.

joe97

Personally I like gated shifters with "manual-tronic" - classy

thegraduate

I can't stand gated shifter, but could go either way with a manu-matic. I doubt I'd ever use it if I had it (we had a Chrysler with AutoStick and it didn't seem that useful/fun).

I like the idea of putting the car in drive and from there being able to shift up or down by just pivoting the shifter left or right (like Mercedes, I think?)

Other than that, let me pull the shifter straight back PLEASE.

pat

Ontop, I need for you to email me as soon as possible - pat AT edmunds.com - thanks!

jeffyscott

I know the flat bottom on steering wheel is supposed to be "sporty"...but is there any functional advatage to that? I don't see any problem with having that shape but I have never understood why one would want a flat spot there...unless you have really large thighs or something.

goodegg

I can't stand gated shifter

I think gateds are great. You're in traffic, or in the mountains, or wherever, and you know your engine's powerband at 4400rpms will be perfect to give you the jam you need to make your move. So you can instantly bop the transmission down to the gear that gets you that rpm'torque, and you're gone. Instead of just punching it or shifting down to D3 (which may not be the optimum gear for your situation).

I know you have a 4cyl engine. A gated would probably be even more useful in it considering the 4's traits.

My $.02

backy

Are you confusing a gated shifter (with a zig-zag pattern) with a manu-matic or auto-stick shifter (which allows manual shifts on an automatic with a touch of the shift lever up or down)?

thegraduate

Backy's got it right. I could warm up to the idea of a manu-matic (though wouldn't pay extra for it), but I don't like the zig-zag pattern I have to go through with a gated one. I like a straight shot to my gear. To me, my Honda would be perfect if they added an OverDrive Off Button (which would put the car at a maximum of 4 gears) to the D, D3, 2, 1 pattern. That would be my perfect shifter. I would probably use that at least once a week in the hilly sections of B'ham.

lilengineerboy

I hope my left leg and foot stay healthy so I won't have to resort to a manu-matic wanna-be-boy-racer thing anytime soon. If you want a stick, get a stick, if your old or would rather talk on the phone, get an auto, but the pretending-its-a-stick with-an-auto thing is eh, silly.
Go ahead, as me how I really feel about it :P

jeffyscott

I have no interest in pretend shifting an automatic, but the tiptronic type automatic looks nicer than having RND4321 on there.

As far as your left leg...I doubt that you can outperform a DSG type transmission. The days of the clutch occupying your left leg may be numbered. But who knows, maybe you will be old yourself by the time that day comes .

lilengineerboy

As far as your left leg...I doubt that you can outperform a DSG type transmission. The days of the clutch occupying your left leg may be numbered. But who knows, maybe you will be old yourself by the time that day comes
I hope so. Its too much fun to be involved in driving still. I suppose when its not fun anymore, I will take the bus.
I think as they refine DSGs to provide acceptable shift quality, it will be less effort to perform at a similar level. Supercars with DSGs are pretty abrupt with quick shifts, and even at part throttle they are pretty rough. I need to spend more time with the VW DSG before commenting, in my brief drive it felt like a good automatic.
Along the same lines, there are other areas where machinery can replace human input to get a job done effectively, but somehow, the experience loses something in the process.

andres3

works wonders!

booyahcramer

Drive a TL, G35 (or even a Sonata LX) for a while and you'll grow to love the SportShifters.

Why would you want a manual transmission is stop and crawl traffic anyway? Just to say 'I'm not pretending to be a racer - I am one'? I don't know brother. Give yourself a break.

thegraduate

Drive a TL, G35 (or even a Sonata LX) for a while and you'll grow to love the SportShifters.

I have (TL and CL, the CL for several days)... Tried to learn to like it, but it was more novelty than anything to me. I got bored after a couple of runs through the gears, and it was back to "D5" for me.

It's not that I would mind if my car had it, it's just that I don't want to halfway do it if I'm gonna shift (don't like the slight delay in shifting...). If I wanted to shift gears, I'd do it the proper way, and get a manual (the Honda stickshifts are so SWEET!), but for my everyday schlep, I wouldn't pay 10 bucks more for a SportShift manumatic.

lilengineerboy

After driving a stick for a few years, its pretty much ballistic motions for me. I usually drive like a grandma on my commute into work when I am half asleep anyway.
No stop and go on my commute unless someone wrecks or its road work season, but even then I can usually find an alternate route. If I really didn't want to drive, I would be more inclined to take public transportation.
If I had to commute in miserable circumstances, I would probably be more likely to go auto...eh, nah, I would prolly move.

elroy5

My truck is a stick, and what I usually drive to work every day. When I do decide to take the car (auto) every now and then, I find it so much nicer being able to drink my coffee and just relax. Instead of constantly shifting. If standard transmission was so great, they would never have invented automatics. Unless I have a high performance sports car (something I would drive on weekends just for fun) or a truck, I want an automatic. Just my view on the subject.

ontop

Unless I have a high performance sports car (something I would drive on weekends just for fun) or a truck, I want an automatic.

Curious - why would someone prefer a manual in their truck?

lilengineerboy

The same reason its good to have in a car. It gives you better access to the engine's powerband when you are towing or hauling a load. It gives better control, and can be used for engine braking.

I think I am spoiled by my commute not sucking. I also think a manual transmission makes a boring car more fun. Thats one of the reasons I think its especially important in this segment, since most of the entries are boring.

elroy5

Curious - why would someone prefer a manual in their truck?

Because the Automatics I've had in trucks before didn't hold up very well (chevys). My next truck will probably be a Ridgeline, or maybe Pilot. I need to do more research on that.

goodegg

The same reason its good to have in a car. It gives you better access to the engine's powerband when you are towing or hauling a load. It gives better control, and can be used for engine braking.

Sure, but the transmission in a Chevy truck is heavy duty and fantastic. So are the few times where you might choose a specific gear manually for a situation enough to offset the huge majority of the time where you don't want to worry about it? I don't think so. At least not for me.

lilengineerboy

Sure, but the transmission in a Chevy truck is heavy duty and fantastic. So are the few times where you might choose a specific gear manually for a situation enough to offset the huge majority of the time where you don't want to worry about it? I don't think so. At least not for me.

I concur that the Alison 5spd in a Chevy truck is really phenominal for a light duty pick-up. It is just really well matched to the needs of the segment and overbuilt for the job. That said, I am partial to manuals anyway, so driving a stick truck (except this one beast that was a crew-cab dually work truck w/3 on the tree) doesn't bother me. Its because I see driving as enjoyable and not a chore.

thesniper

"I just noticed the Camry rates and 8.8??!! with 171 reviews.. OUCH! These are actual owners also. Not the media...Doesn't look good for the Camry..."

Looks like you really need a vacation to Maui...

...and you developed this bad taste for the media. Surely, the ink doesn't taste good!

bhmr59

Hyundai's shiftronic is handy to have in hilly areas when the roads are slippery (snow). Being able to drop a gear or two (and have that gear hold) can help control the car.

As far as shifting through the gears under normal driving conditions: Yeah, I tried it a couple times to see what it's like. I practically never use it, except for when I want the engine to help slow the car on slippery roads.

thegraduate

I'm kind of in your realm of thinking, I believe. The few times I would ever use the manumatic function (if my Accord came with it) would be to

1.) Use Engine Braking, which my automatic with grade logic control does automatically, so I don't need that now; if my grade logic happens to not kick in (I may not be on a hill, for example) I simply pull the shifter to the gear I want (3,2, or 1 - 4 is the only one not selectable, although, if conditions are warranting engine braking over simple brake application, I doubt I'll be going fast enough for "4" anyway).

2.) Start in 2nd gear in snow. Interestingly though, the CL I drove automatically went back to 1st gear upon stopping in manual mode. In my Accord, putting the Automatic shifter in "2" actually locks the car in 2nd gear, not allowing it to go back to 1st, which is exactly what I need in snow/ice (my 1996 and 2006 both operate this way - it is quite handy).

So, I have no real "need" for this shifter, especially since I have D, D3, 2, 1 to choose from in my shift pattern. A Fusion owner, however, may greatly benefit from such a shifter due to lack of choice for gear selection (just D and an S "sport mode" or something).

mz6greyghost

Since everyone else is throwing in their $.02, so will I.

My first co-op job during a break from college was at a company with a split amount of manual and automatic cars and trucks. One day, I was forced to drive a manual pick-up, and was given a 10-minute crash course on driving a manual. After stalling it twice, I was off and running, and swearing myself to NEVER buy an automatic again.

My Mazda6 is a manual. My wife's Neon is a manual, soon to be replaced by another manual-shifted car. We both love the added control that a manual offers. No, it's not a "boy-racer" thing. Hardly, since all the local boy-racers are driving auto-equipped Civics and Cavaliers anyway! Yes, our commutes don't involve much stop-n-go, but then again, we'd also move if that was the case.

Having a manual and clutch allows me to choose the gear I want RIGHT NOW and go, instead of waiting for a slushbox or manu-matic to agree with me. Having the added involvement when driving makes it better in my experience, instead of yacking on the cell phone or eating my breakfast. DSGs are great, but they don't feel quite the same (since they're essentially an automatic anyway), and I've driven the abomination BMW calls the Sequential Manual, VERY disappointed, and almost disgusted. Apparently, I'm not alone, since a 6-speed manual will be available with the M5 this fall, in addition to the standard SMG.

Manual-equipped cars may make less than 10% of all cars sold in the US, but they're more than 60% of cars in Europe, and I doubt that they'll completely disappear from the market. If they do, then Mazda might as well close up shop here in the US, since they offer a stick on every car they sell (as well as the Mazda5 minivan!), and a fair percentage of their cars sold are manuals as well.

The day they pull all three-pedal cars off the market is the day I'll start taking a bus, or my manual-equipped bicycle!

jeffyscott

Manual-equipped cars may make less than 10% of all cars sold in the US, but they're more than 60% of cars in Europe

But, in europe, I think this is more a function of gas prices (and cars being equipped with less powerful engines as a result of the desire for fuel economy) than a desire to shift gears.

elroy5

Who needs the extra aggravation of a stick shift every day? One pedal to go, and one to stop. Brilliant! Sure, a manual can be fun, about 5% of the time. The other 95% of time, it's just a hassle. Who cares what people drive in Europe (manual or auto)? Heck, I don't even care what the next-door-neighbor drives. He can shift his car all he wants.

thegraduate

To me, every moment that a manual isn't a hassle is usually fun. Problem is, for many people, it is a hassle more than 50% of the time. For me, my perfect compromise would be an automatic car for the weekdays, and a manual for the weekends. Unfortunately, that requires the ability to purchase TWO cars!

lilengineerboy

Actually, living somewhere that doesn't suck is paramount. I live about a mile from the freeway, no stop lights and three right turns. The freeway breaks off to a highway that ends at my work. I will count the number of shifts on Monday and report back.
I have lived in 3 cities and this has been roughly the case each time. If someone wants to live out in BFE to get 15 acres of land all to themselves, thats cool but then don't whine about your terrible commute or how much gas costs. I don't like my current living situation because I can't ride my bike to work like I have for most of my life thus far.

bhmr59

Interesting info on your tranny. I didn't know that Accord actually allows you to select the gear you want. My prior car ('91 Chrysler) allowed one to drop to 3 or low, no 2nd gear option, plus they would allow up shift from 2nd to 3rd if the car had been slowed enough to get to 2nd and then gained speed to reach 3rd. I really appreciate the lock in feature in snowy weather--but your Accord does this also without the "shiftronic."

Also interesting, my wife's '04 Infiniti G35 Coupe has shiftronic (whatever Infiniti calls it) tranny. Made me think it was the wave of the future (maybe it is.)

thegraduate

Well, when you select "D3" the car becomes a functional 3-speed Auto, limited to gears 1 thru 3. The ability to select 1st and 2nd individually is really handy in iffy situations though(very steep driveways/roads, snowy starts, etc...). That's why I'm not sold on a manumatic, because of the choice allowed by my Accords anyway.

Shifttronic is most certainly becoming the norm, and I wouldn't be surprised to see it in the next Accord.

meateater

What's snow?

Kiddin aside, most people don't have snow to contend with nor need the ability to start out in second gear.

I agree the new Accord will have a TL-esque transmission, but I imagine Honda will have other sweeteners in the next gen Accord that'll wow the consumers shopping in this segment. Can't wait to see the 08.

The Accord needs some help since sales vs. last year have declined. And Honda's still got the 07 model year to sell a design developed 5 - 6 years ago. Good luck to em.

lilengineerboy

Kiddin aside, most people don't have snow to contend with nor need the ability to start out in second gear.

So since almost every state in the union gets snow somewhere, and automatic trans 1st gear starts result in eh, exessive wheelspin and little forward motion, or the tgtgtgtgtgtgt noise of the traction control kicking in, I think its a useful feature. Most people do have snow and most people who live in it figure out that 2nd gear starts are a lot easier.

Since I have a manual, I need not be concerned with the issue, if I put it in second I know its in second.

thegraduate

Right you are, engineer...

While, in central Alabama, we may go a year or two without snow, when it does snow, I know to drive the car with ABS (my older one does not have it), and to start in second gear in icy spots (I don't have traction/stability control).

Otherwise, I'll be left spinning my wheels and getting nowhere.

skibry1

Glad to hear you and yours enjoy a left-leg flexor. We are
a dying breed. I was heart broken when I saw the new CX-7
did not have one! What a blast 4-cyl w/ turbo and a third pedal...talk about orgasmic!! Where on earth would I put this">

jeffyscott

I have lived with snow all my life (Wisconsin and northern IL). Never have I used second gear, in either automatic or manual transmissions, to start because of snow...except once or twice as an experiment, after having read claims of eaasier starting in second. I also have never had traction control or AWD.

thegraduate

Be that as it may, when a major ice storm crippled the southeast some 10 years ago, I specifically remember my dad driving his manual equipped 1995 Civic DX over their nicer, Automatic equipped 1993 Accord EX, because it was easier to start in 2nd gear in the Civic than in the Accord.

Maybe it is because we aren't nearly as accustomed to driving in such foul winter-weather conditions as the northerners are.

w9cw

I currently own several cars and minivans with both manual and automatics. I've driven manual transmissions since 1961, and when you've driven them this long, it becomes "automatic." You don't have to think what gear you have to be in, it just seems to become an extension of your mind and body. You change gears, and you really don't even know it. Most European cars use a hydraulic actuated clutch, and this makes a big difference in ease of operation and smoothness over a spring operated diaphragm clutch that many Asian vehicles use.

An automatic transmission is effortless and nice, but I still prefer a manual transmission for overall control of a vehicle, especially in ice and snow.

I remember my last business trip to Europe - Geneva, Switzerland to be specific. I rented a Ford Focus with a 5-speed manual - a far different car than what we un-lucky Americans get. When I picked up a colleague, who is from Luzern, Switzerland, he was shocked. He said: "I thought Americans drive nothing but automatics." Well, he was almost correct!