Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

akirby

This is pointless. Nobody here is going to change their opinion, even when presented with hard facts. All they want to do is argue about it. I'm outta here. Have fun.

pat

...to get back to the cars and leave this media bias argument be.

thegraduate

Nobody needs to leave, but instead, talk about the cars.

This forum isn't about media, marketing, or the brands themselves. It's about midsize 4-door cars, their merits and downfalls that each of us sees; not the merits and downfalls of magazine articles or television news stories, or the downfalls of one poster over another.

Just the vehicles themselves. I've participated in this thread for a long time and had many an entertaining discussion, but it has gotten silly lately. *Steps off soapbox*

Shall we try it again, from the top?

pat

Well said, thank you.

mazdamotoring

2007 Edmunds Most Wanted Sedan Under $25,000 is the Mazda6! I think that finally settles which one of these sedans is best :shades: Just kidding all, just kidding... Makes me feel good about getting my Mazda 6s three weeks ago though It really is a great car.

I agree with the earlier comment about the Fusion's poor safety showing. Someone high up in Ford should lose their job over that. The Fusion is too important to Ford for such a critical flaw. Many people buying midsize sedans have children, and safety ranks high in their selection criteria. It's a shame that the relatively poor safety rating could cause the Fusion to be overlooked, because it appears to be a really good vehicle. If/when it gets the 3.5L, it'll be a real contender.

autoboy16

Our 2004 explorer had its transmission go out for the 3rd time and now we're at 56k miles. YES we know its a :lemon:. Anyways, while the transmission was being fixed, we got a rental taurus. My opinion about the Taurus has changed completely. Personally I think that the Taurus is a better car than the fusion (performance, safety, and comfort wise) but the fusion deffinatly score higher in terms of style.

The taurus has an ok v6, very quiet on the inside and even seats 6 best friends (I'm not saying comfortably ). It was at least quiet enough to drown out the noisy v6 inside. Once she dropped us off at home (We had the taurus for like a week and a half) and drove off. If I didn't here that loud engine all the way down the street, into the intersection for a about 2 miles... When it was parked, I heard it all through my home!! I know for could have made a newer v6 (and taurus) sooner!! I give the Taurus 5 of 10. :shades:

Does that explain my subtle dislike for ford? The only exception I have is the "New" Expedition my dad bought. I give it 7 of 10.

-Cj

venus537

"There are plenty of reasons to buy an Accord or Camry over a Fusion or Milan, but better quality isn't one of them"

In terms of reliability you may be right.

If we're talking about the quality of exterior trim and interior materials...

If were talking about attention to detail...

If were talking about the duratec versus the jewels from the Accord and Camry...

then I'll have to disagree. My observations indicate otherwise. Quality at least in some aspects is indeed a reason why one would get an Accord or Camry over a Fusion.

honda28

Seems like we have an excess amount of discontent against the Accord....I dont think any one here was saying the Mazda was not a good car....I have owned an Accord....Had to be one of the best cars I have ever owned...Im talking from experince of actual ownership...I really dont have to say much more then that beacuse the Accords REPUTATION over the years speaks for itself! :shades:

elroy5

Looks like we could have a diesel Accord in a few years.

http://www.edmunds.com/advice/fueleconomy/articles/116961/article.html

Honda technology strikes again.

bhmr59

Been reading all the my favoite car is better than your favorite car discussions here.

It does get old after a while.

My '05 Sonata, a year and a half old, with only 10,700 has been a fantastic car so far. Ride, handling (not a racer), comfort and decent MPG. The MPG is always with 1 mpg of the epa rating even thought most of my trips are under 5 miles. On the occassional 60 mile highway drive within a tankful, I get over 20 mph.

Haven't had a single problem with the car yet. Couldn't say that for other cars we've owned including my wife's '04 Infinity G 35. (IMO that's really an over rated car, but that's what she wanted with "her money".)

scape2

I wont ever buy another Honda either....

scape2

The whole point here is Ford/GM HAVE got their "act together" Its just that some people have had it beat into thier heads by the media that Ford/GM will never build a car as "good" as the Cam/Cord.

What about all those transmission problems in the Accords/Oddessey? Honda had a huge recall about a year or so ago for how many million vehicles??

scape2

"I would agree that Honda and Toyota vehicles are generally excellent, however, it seems that the new models have some general teething problems - not all that unusual. Please check out the "Honda Civic 2006 Issues" forum - many of these folks are not happy campers at all with their new Civic. So, any manufacturer, even Honda and Toyota, can have quality problems with a new model. No one is infallible. "

I know and do not dispute in anyway that Honda/Toyota build good or even great vehicles. The internet has allowed the free flow of information. Vehicle owners are able to voice concerns or issues. Having worked for a Japanese company for over 10 years. It is in there culture to "save face" at any cost. Facts are out there folks that show reliability has become virtually a non-issue. Honda/Toyota no longer have the reliability game cornered.

scape2

"So you are already attesting to the reliability of the Edge and asking US to take our head out of the sand? How many Edges have you seen on the road"

Why was it then ok for Consumer reports to rate the Odessey the most reliable and highest quality mini-van its FIRST YEAR out? When in truth the first year of the Odessey was a nightmare for Honda..

thegraduate

Well, at least the Odyssey had a previous generation to pull from... the Edge is COMPLETELY new.

It is a little different; if the Odyssey had been brand new, that wouldn't be fair, I definitely agree.

scape2

" I responded to Scape's post that Ford/GM problems were due to the media bias, had nothing to do with Honda/Toyota/Hyundai quality/reliability."

Nope, I didn't say that all Fords/GM problems were due to media bias. I said the media has done one heck of a job beating it into our heads that GM/Ford will never build a car that can match or even beat any Toyota/Honda product.

thegraduate

I thought the host requested the media mumbo-jumbo be taken elsewhere?

We got so bogged down with this, I thought we were moving on...

scape2

"Yesterday Toyota recalled 30,000 Scions for inadvertent side airbag deployment. This is the only regular media article I could find on it using google. If this was Ford it would be headlines. "

Bingo@!@!! I didn't not hear a thing about his on the news, or read this in the paper. If this would have been Ford or GM it would have made the headlines I have NO DOUBT.. :mad:

thegraduate

What, the most widely-distributed paper in the US (USA Today) doesn't count?

Just because you don't look for it doesn't mean it isn't reported.

USA Today - Scion Recalls 30,000 tC coupes

scape2

"Not quite, I blew a 3.0 v6 in a 93' Thunderturd at a mere 138k miles"

What??? I don't believe the Thunderbird ever had the 3.0 Duratec. I am sure you are talking about the 3.8. The Duratec 3.0 was first introduced into the Taurus/Sable. Besides the present 3.0 Duratec is improved with VVT.. The Duratec is a great engine and has a history of great reliability.

scape2

I see we are back to the Fusion crash test ratings. Trying to make the Fusion out to be a death trap is just plain ignorant. "A" means acceptable NOT fail. READ the fine print on the difference between "ACCEPTABLE" and "GOOD". AND take a browse through other vehicle makes/classes and you will get one heck of a wake up call on how many vehicles don't make the "Good" rating.
Now, don't get me wrong. I am dissappointed the Fusion didn't score higher. Dissapppointed in Ford engineering for not doing better. I feel plenty safe in my Fusion however. Get out on the net, there are pictures of Fusions that have had accidents and people have walked away. One story of an older couple loosing control, car flipped and they walked away! Pictures are incredible...

scape2

"My point is, there is little possible benefit to anybody in the media to diss Ford products (or GM/DC). If anything, the opposite should be true. "

Wrong.. sales my friend.. You tick off your readers.. you don't sell mags...

venus537

The current and previous generation Odysseys have never been rated the most reliable mini-van by CR. The 98' Odyssey was considered highly reliable but that would be the smaller one with the 4 cylinder which was in its last year of the inaugural generation.

venus537

"We got so bogged down with this, I thought we were moving on..."

I hear you. Even I'm starting to feel that way and that's saying something. But I find it hard not to respond to misinformation. You may feel the same way as you posted the link to the USA Today article. It's like shooting fish in a barrel at times.

tlong

However, the NEW Ford models like the Mustang, 500, Fusion and the upcoming Edge and their Lincoln/Mercury counterparts are proving to be very reliable vehicles with very good and in some cases industry leading quality.

How can an upcoming model be proven to be reliable? :confuse:

andres3

Why your Honda isn't as perfect as your parent's and brother's Toyotas?

Because my Honda required one or more (in my case more) warranty visits to fix problems (my Accord was built in America). Although the problems were fixed, I had to go through the trouble of obtaining service under warranty.

My parents' two Camry's, and 4Runner, my brothers' T100 and Tundra never required a single visit for warranty that I know of, nor any repairs that cost you money in the first 60K that doesn't fall into "normal scheduled maintenance."

andres3

what does unexpected expenses mean?

That means money that comes out of your pocket that isn't for normal routine scheduled maintenance wear and tear items, such as:
Oil/oil filer
air filer
cabin filter
wiper blades
brake pads
fluids

andres3

The Accord Sport Sedan shouldn't have a shiftable automatic feature, because a true sport sedan purchaser should opt for Honda's great 6 speed manual tranny!

andres3

There are plenty of reasons to buy an Accord or Camry over a Fusion or Milan, but better quality isn't one of them.

If that were true, then resale value would be more comparable.

tlong

The current and previous generation Odysseys have never been rated the most reliable mini-van by CR. The 98' Odyssey was considered highly reliable but that would be the smaller one with the 4 cylinder which was in its last year of the inaugural generation.

Consumer Reports addresses this issue. They've clearly stated that they rate new models positively from manufacturers who have a long history of high reliability cars, and of good reliability upon initial model introduction. Since Honda and Toyota have been repeatedly successful at new model introductions, CU rates their new vehicles positively for reliability. If GM and Ford had such a track record CU would treat them the same way.

andres3

built in the US.

although there were plenty of little issues i had to deal with during warranty, I blame those more on being built in the US than first year issues.

My wife's 05 Civic Ex built in Japan has reached 25K and has not had to have a single warranty visit for anything. YOu can just feel and drive the fit and finish and build quality of a Japanese built vehicle. Even over another Honda not built in Japan.

akirby

If that were true, then resale value would be more comparable.

Ok, I said I was outta here but I can't let that one slide.

Assuming Accord and Camry resale values haven't risen in the last year or so:

36 month residual value:

Accord LX - 51%
Camry LE - 48%
Fusion SE - 49% (2% higher than last year)

These are all ALG figures. Looks pretty comparable to me.

And I forgot to add - the Edge is at 51% for the AWD model - best in class and 4% higher than the Highlander. And since the Edge is built off a slighly modified Fusion platform I think it's reasonable to expect similar quality even though it's just now hitting the dealers. If CR can predict reliability that way, so can I.

kdshapiro

I do not believe GM or Ford has gotten their act together. So while we can debate this, my money will be going to the German or Japanese car manufacturers.

Years ago I wouldn't have bought a Honda Accord. Today it's at the top of list, right under BMW. I don't particularly care if Honda has had blips, Ford and GM has had more blips and more importantly, more unhappy customers. Honda has a stellar reputation, as does BMW, amongst the people I know who have them. GM and Ford do not.

At this point in time, unless someone gives me a Ford or GM vehicle and pays the repair bills, a car from either manufacturer is not ending up in my garage. This situation is not media bias, it's the result of producing lousy cars combined with lackluster customer service.

The final straw was the repair bill for a tranny problem on a Ford product that got diagnosed right after the warranty expired. Dealer was no help. As far as I am concerned, case closed.

kdshapiro

Need to check private party sales at KBB for a reality check. Residual values can be manipulated by the manufacturer by theuse of incentives.

akirby

Residual values can be manipulated by the manufacturer by theuse of incentives.

How do you check 36 month resale value on a car that's only been manufactured for a year?

We're not talking about factory subsidized leases here. ALG is the industry standard reference. This is the residual rate that would be used to lease a vehicle through a bank or leasing company and is not impacted by factory lease subsidies or other factory incentives.

kdshapiro

Residual rates are set by the manufacturer, not ALG. ALG just reports them.

w9cw

andres3 wrote: "My wife's 05 Civic Ex built in Japan has reached 25K and has not had to have a single warranty visit for anything. YOu can just feel and drive the fit and finish and build quality of a Japanese built vehicle. Even over another Honda not built in Japan."

Perhaps it is the Asian workforce mentality or the production process, as my Hyundai Elantra also has had absolutely no warranty issues, or even the slightest "glitch" since purchase.

It would be interesting to track the warranty claims of American built Hondas, Toyotas, and even Hyundais, and compare it to their Japanese and Korean counterparts.

thegraduate

Interestingly, our Japanese built 2003 Accord had more rattles than any Honda we've ever owned. My American made 2006 (and my dad's 2005) are much MUCH better in comparison. You might chalk it up to it being a first year model; I dunno. Could be.

Also interestingly, my 1996 Accord (Ohio made also)is STILL very nearly rattle free, save for a creaking from the dashboard on cold mornings. Not bad for 167,000 miles in my opinion.

kdhspyder

Nowhere was it said that the vehicle was a deathtrap. In fact it was stated that the vehicle is very good.

But this is the 'crime'.

As good a vehicle as it is. Mom, the decision maker, who researchs the family vehicle purchases goes to the IIHS website... sees the Fusion standing out like a sore thumb.. and they never, ever even set foot in a Ford dealership. That is a shame and a 'crime' against what otherwise is a fine vehicle.

akirby

Residual rates are set by the manufacturer, not ALG. ALG just reports them.

Wrong. ALG sets their residual values using their own proprietary model. Finance companies who lease vehicles (including the mfrs) can then use this data to determine the residuals that they'll use for their specific lease programs.

kdshapiro

Wrong. The residuals are in part set by manufacturers incentives and other programs. The residuals at the end of the lease in part will dicatate the selling prices.

captain2

while I will agree that there is definitely a different workforce mentality - don't believe there to be any substantial quality differences overseas built vs. domestically built. The 'Japanese' plants are generally new in this country (and Mexico in the case of Honda) as are the 'American' plants in places like Mexico and Canada, meaning that these largely automated assembly processes are done with updated equipment.
I think that the 'American' brands are closing that quality gap for 2 reasons: production capacity exceeds demand so that they can and do spend more time building a car and secondly, the drivetrains being used in many of their cars have been around for years and are, therefore, less prone to problems. In the meanwhile, you have the Toyotas of the world that can't seem to build plants (or cars) fast enough to keep up with demand while still producing what are totally new cars from the ground up and experiencing some uncharacteristic 'teething' problems as a result. If and when, the 'Detroit 3' can come up with something truly 'new' and technologically competitive, I would expect them to suffer a little as well.

honda28

IMO the big three havent totally got there act together...As recalls are concerned at least Honda steps up to the plate and acknowledges the problem..In my dealings with Ford for example they would not step up to plate...It almost took an act of congress to get things done....And we all know how congress is(HA!) :P

comp386

Toyotal Recall Investigation

I know your point was on Honda and not Toyota, but I think it's somewhat foolish to think that one auto maker has any more incentive to disclose their poor quality than another. Companies will always try to hide quality problems unless they think not doing so will lead to lawsuits and bad press. I think Honda probably is a little guilty of hiding quality problems like Toyota.

thegraduate

I think Honda probably is a little guilty of hiding quality problems like Toyota.

Let's not speculate without information, though.

jeffyscott

"A" means acceptable NOT fail. READ the fine print on the difference between "ACCEPTABLE" and "GOOD". AND take a browse through other vehicle makes/classes and you will get one heck of a wake up call on how many vehicles don't make the "Good" rating.

Acceptable seems to cover a wide range...at least to my eyes. The pictures of the Fusion after the "acceptable" IIHS do not look bad at all...more like good than cceptable. OTOH, the previous version of the Sonata also got "acceptable"...but the pictures look anything but acceptable to me.

http://www.iihs.org/ratings/rating.aspx?id=115

Not sure what you are looking at, with regard to other cars, in the current models there are only 4 small cars, the fusion (and its Lincoln twin), and the impala that failed to get "good" on the IIHS frontal test.

honda28

I respect your opinion....but....we all know Honda issues with there tranys on there 2nd generation Odyssey as well as the last generation Accord....Honda steped up to the plate and offered warranty extensions and in many cases covered these trannys long after warranty expiration...my point is the big three have had major quality issues and problems over the years but is never willing to take that extra step to take care of the consumer...We are just expected to live with it....that has been in my experince as well as other family members and friends...just my 2 cents

zzzoom6

Had a chance to drive around in a v-6 sonata with a moonroof and leather for a couple days due to a business trip so thought i'd share my impressions of it.

I liked the engine a lot. Had pretty decent low end grunt and plenty of passing power. Seemed to be pretty fuel efficient also, though most of my driving was on highways. Of the other cars that I've driven in this class, there are only a couple engines in this class that I like more than the Sonata's.

As far as driving dynamics are concerned, it was better than I anticipated. Pretty quiet, absorbed bumps well (although made too sharp of a sound over rough parts on the highways), braked good, and the steering was pretty solid. I did think the steering was a bit more vague than say an accord or legacy, but on par with the altima (05). I felt there was a bit too much body lean when turning, accelerating hard, and braking which I thought comprimised overall handling a bit.

the tranny was pretty good when in full auto mode. responded well to inputs, and shifted smooth and quickly. the manual mode was a bit disappointing...there was too much lag in downshifts. A couple times I had to decide that changing lanes to pass would not be safe since I wouldn't be able to accelerate in time like I wanted. With more time in the car, I'm sure I could get used to the timing, but I think the car should downshift faster in manual mode. Traction control was not so great...it rained on the last day and when accelerating moderately at a traffic light, got huge wheel spin then followed by a loss of power much too quickly. It was slightly uphill, and had been sunny for a good week prior, so it was slick, but it seemed a bit strange to get that extreme of a response. btw...i live in the NW so I know how to drive in the wet.

general impressions were good. plenty of space, good materials, and easy to figure out the controls. I really liked the sliding armrest/ center storage. Also, visibility was very good. seats were ok. back support was good, not so good lateral support for cornering, and my right hamstring got pretty sore after 10 minutes. sunroof was very quiet when open even at highway speeds. liked the look of the speedo, not as much the center stack. buttons on steering wheel for audio and cruise seemed really cheap.

overall...a good car especially considering what you can get it for. Do I mind that I spent 2k more for a mazda 6? not at all. But I'm impressed with what hyundai is doing and would not hesitate recommending this car as worthy of consideration.

zzzoom6

akirby

You're confusing the residuals in an actual lease (which are set by whomever is underwriting the lease - could be the mfr or it could be an independent leasing firm) with the industry guidelines that the mfrs use to set their residuals. The mfrs can choose to ignore, raise or lower the ALG residual - it's just a guideline.

It's just like looking up a used car trade-in value on edmunds or kbb. The mfrs have no direct influence on ALG residuals. Just because you don't like the answer doesn't mean the source is invalid.