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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread
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That's exactly the problem. If people focus more on the car itself rather than the badge, then they would learn Hyundais and other under-rated automakers do actually produce quality and reliable cars (in other words - good cars). The good thing, at present, a lot of consumers are actually finding Hyundais and others great fit based on their situations, given the vast jump in quality and reliability. As they say, when you build good cars, people will come!!
In many cases, the engines would still be running when there was not body left - as it rusted away.
Xenon and rearview monitor are not "fluff items". Both are great safety and convenience features. Certain no less "fluff" than push button start, navi, and 30 horsepower.
You've been making the point that the Camry XLE is a "generation" ahead because it's got features that the Sonata does not. Now are these features essential? No... they're luxury items like xenon and rearview monitor.
Now, when the Altima comes out with more features than the Camry, it's just "fluff". Seems like a double standard to me.
The review monitor is an interesting addon but if these two are the full extent of the additional equipment on the Altima then it's in the same range as the new XLE but not a generation ahead.
A comparo and test are in order on what seems to be a very competitive new model. No double standard here. Let's see how it handles, rides and the level of quietness and refinement there is.
As I've said before now there's the Camry, Accord, Altima and Azera at the entry-luxo level.
Anyone understand why they don't want to bring the opel name to north america?
Since probably less than 5% of people (including me!) can afford a car with all the best existing technology, I'm very happy with Hyundai taking some of the best existing technology from all the other makes and applying it to my car. I don't necessarily want a "leader". That's just a vanity thing for the more affluent drivers among us. All I want is a "driver" that has good solid technology that I can afford. The Sonata does that in spades.
Yes, the Milan will get AWD too. I haven't read anything stating otherwise, so you should be able to buy a Milan with AWD this fall when the '07s hit the lots.
Several new safety features such as side seat and side curtain air bags are reported to be standard across the board as well for MY07.
This whole "generation ahead" argument is arbitrary and fungible anyway.
The Sonatas are also "well respected" by those who have spent any time in the car.
If the prospective Civic/Corolla buyer drives a Sonata, your theory goes out the window. Astute buyers will immediately recognize the quality is comparable, and the standard options, ride, power, fantastic roominess, safety, and price are too good to be ignored.
Gm is going to fail with the saturn project unless they are willing to lower prices by quite a bit. Their cars were like the cheapest in the market and suddendly the sky and aura is going to raise the prices nearer to the hondyota. Who is going to care for that?
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Is the $17000 compact vehicle buyer different than the $17000 midsized buyer? Is it the vehicle and class of vehicles that buyers shop ( I'm looking for a midsized car. )or is it the price range that buyers shop ( I need something in the $15000-17000 range. )? Or both as you suggest? Or, is it that the market is so huge that all these variations can be accomodated and still fill all the new transplant facilities now in existence and those being planned?
I would think if one were set on getting the best sedan available for $17k, you would buy a CPO. IMHO.
Is the $17000 compact vehicle buyer different than the $17000 midsized buyer? Is it the vehicle and class of vehicles that buyers shop ( I'm looking for a midsized car. )or is it the price range that buyers shop ( I need something in the $15000-17000 range. )? Or both as you suggest? Or, is it that the market is so huge that all these variations can be accomodated and still fill all the new transplant facilities now in existence and those being planned?
I think it would be a combination of many factors; take my girlfriend for instance (well, don't take her, but use her as an example
She is so small, she occasionally sets of my "Passenger Airbag Off" warning light in my 06 Accord, so I really don't think she's be nearly as comfortable in a car as large as the Sonata. Plus, she gets in the 31-33 MPG range with her heavy-footed driving style, and I've managed 37 MPG on a HWY trip at 80MPH in it, something that would be harder to do in a Sonata (although not impossible given the right conditions).
I'm not sure what my post accomplished, other than to find an example of how a combo of factors come in to play when car shopping, not just price.
Late 60s and 70s had Opels being sold in Buick dealerships. I had a 1968 Opel 2 Dr sedan...1100CC engine, 4 speed stick and got 40 MPG commuting 21 miles from south jersey to Philadelphia with 4 people aboard every day. MRSP $1999 with an AM radio. Also looked at a "new" japanese car at that time -- something called the Toyota...who knew? Opel's sport car - the GT - was one of the cheapest sports cars with panache at the time. Death knell was that service under Buick was atrocious and lack of dealer and GM involvement with quality or decent repairs caused GM to discontinue them right about the time the feds were cracking down on safety and emissions. Not a good experience for Opel owners...only had one car that was worst....***CENSORED***! chuckle
Top sellers of 06, so far
1. Ford F-Series 199,801
2. Chevrolet Silverado 145,353
3. Toyota Camry 93,775
4. Dodge Ram 90,386
5. Honda Civic 78,479
6. Honda Accord 76,954
7. Chevrolet Impala 64,433
8. Nissan Altima 60,628
9. Dodge Caravan 58,624
10. Chevrolet Cobalt 52,527
Source: Automotive News Data Center
As far as cars go, it's Camry, Civic, Accord, Impala, Altima. Where's the Sonata? Top 20, maybe.
Well, that's a little bit of a stretch, even for the rabid Sonata fans among us.
I won't make any exuberant claims like that. However, I will go out on a limb and say that I think the Sonata is the best mid-sized car you can buy for under 19K.
If I were rich enough to have bought a $30,000 car, I wouldn't have looked twice at a Sonata. Having said that, I've had my Sonata for a few months now, and the longer I drive it, the smarter I feel.
Assuming about 1400 Toyota dealerships in the U.S., in 1Q06 there were about 67 Camrys sold per dealership.
Assuming about 700 Hyundai dealerships in the U.S., in 1Q06 there were about 61 Sonatas sold per dealership.
Of course, these numbers are high because not all Camrys and Sonatas are sold through dealerships. But I think it shows that Hyundai is not as far behind Toyota in the mid-sized sales game as might be seen only looking at the units sold.
Assuming about 700 Hyundai dealerships in the U.S., in 1Q06 there were about 61 Sonatas sold per dealership."
Take the percent sold to fleets of both the Camry and Sonata. Then deduct those numbers from those gross numbers that you just gave. Then do the comparison again and it will be drastically different.
Opps I am sorry. I will say that the Sonata is god five times before bed tonight.
What you say does make sense. I just think that people need to stop with the nonsense. The top line Mazda3 is better than the Sonata because it has more features and has a performance edge. No it does not have the safety or size but it has the up crust features. No that may not be as important to some but it is important to others and that is okay.
-driver
As our keen observer ctalk pointed out:
What happened to the Corolla @ 82,287 units
Top sellers of 06, so far
1. Ford F-Series 199,801
2. Chevrolet Silverado 145,353
3. Toyota Camry 93,775
4. Dodge Ram 90,385
--------------- Corolla 82,287 should be here
5. Honda Civic 78,479
6. Honda Accord 76,954
7. Chevrolet Impala 64,433
8. Nissan Altima 60,628
9. Dodge Caravan 58,624
10. Chevrolet Cobalt 52,527
Source: Automotive News ( Faulty ) Data Center
Maybe you have not heard of Future Value of money or compound interest but:
Your friend invests the $2,000 he saved at 4% for 12 years and he has $3,202. That plus his resale gives him $6,202 which beats your $5,500 resale. ..and 4% return is a crummy return.
Plus if you both financed for the same rate and loan length, your friend pulls even further ahead of you financially in less interest paid.
I have heard of the time value of money but I still do not agree with you. You could might as well say what if he took the 2,000 and bought 2,000 scratch tickets. From the time you do that you are really going off in a tangent. First you are assuming that his friend put that money in a 4% investment that you can get into at $2,000. None of which you were ever told. Our national savings rate is negative, so in all likely hood his friend either didn't have the 2,000 in the first place or spent it on the good things in life... and perhaps some scratch tickets.
A financial person doesn't directly compare $2,000 with an amount of some $2,500, 12 years later.
but you can if you want, have a ball.
Opps I am sorry. I will say that the Sonata is god five times before bed tonight.
I usually just read the posts on this board, but I'm tired of this nonsense. If you're going to post informative comparisons between mid-sized cars, then do it. Don't dog on the Sonata because a multitude of people are enjoying their vehicles. If they like the fact that they paid less for it and that it looks better than your vehicle(In their opinion) then good for them.
I don't think you're being fair to the rest of us who consider this a good place to gather information and try to compare vehicles from various makes. I know some Sonata owners are somewhat biased, but that doesn't give you the right to ridicule them in this way.
As Pat always says, "Stick to the subject."
Sonata's a good car, the new Camry is good, and Mazda is good too. I wouldn't mind driving any of them. However, I wouldn't like paying too much for any of these vehicles. I think Sonata's the best for the money. But then again, I'd probably get the I4's.
I've driven the Accord, Sonata, and the (previous) Camry. I think they are all good drivers. Accord is nice inside, but not worth the extra money. Camry and the Sonata drive similarly from what I can recollect. The new Camry has nice interior judging from the pictures, but I don't think it's worth all that extra cash. From a practicality standpoint, I'd get the Sonata. If money wasn't an issue, then I'd probably get the Accord or Camry. However, in the real world, Sonata wins hands down.
It has been for at least 3 years the stats are easy to veryify since they are published every month. Last year the Corolla almost passed the Accord as No 2 auto for the entire year and this year it has thus far. But as you can see so has the Civic passed the Accord.
As thegraduate correctly notes there are Corolla's in fleets ( typically Toyota's are about 10% or less )whereas there are very few if any Civic's in fleets at the moment.
However, in the real world, Sonata wins hands down.
This is your perception of the real world but not necessarily that of everyone else. Yes many are on tight budgets or do not care to spend much money on transportation, but others dont mind to do so. Thus there are different price levels for different buyers' tastes.
The real world also includes those that intend to spend $30K, $40K and even $50K for different Toyota or Honda vehicles. It's a huge market with huge variations in income. All buyers have good reasons for buying what pleases them in the 'real world'.
Exactly! It's interesting how some people see the Sonata as an alternative, while others see it as a threat somehow. First, nobody is forced to buy it. Second, it will most likely help trend Camry/Accord prices downward. Third, it is a legitimate, worthy, viable, inexpensive alternative. I drove them all too, and agree that all are great cars. All have many strengths, and very few weaknesses. I get the distinct feeling that C/A owners think Sonata owners feel that they are foolish for spending too much money on a comparable car. That's just not true in my case, and I doubt that other Sonata owners feel that way. If I would have had the discretionary money, I would just have likely have bought a Camry instead of the Sonata. Would I have been more satisfied? I doubt it, because it's hard to be more than 100% satisfied.
Never fall in love with a name plate, not Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, or any other. Believe me, they will not return your love.
Krzys
PS file:/C:/Documents and Settings/Owner/My Documents/My
"However, in the real world, Sonata wins hands down"
Isn't that ridiculing anyone that thinks something different. My posts are basically that that needs to stop. It can't be that if you don't beleive the Sonata is the best car that you live on another planet. Maybe I don't live in the real world or but I beleive the Mazda6 is a better car. I understand why someone would chose a Sonata though. I focus on styling and performance. Other focus on other things. I accept that, but they need to do the same.
You said:
Don't dog on the Sonata because a multitude of people are enjoying their vehicles. If they like the fact that they paid less for it and that it looks better than your vehicle(In their opinion) then good for them.
Don't people who don't drive a Sonata deserve the same respect?