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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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Comments

  • lightfootfllightfootfl Member Posts: 442
    Mileage: Minus ? re the 2006 Sonata LX.. I love mine, however the biggest minus that I have so far (<1500mi) is the mileage. Primarily town, is just under 18. I was hoping for better, but considering all things guess it isn't very bad. Everything else seems to me to be fine. I did take one small trip (200mi round trip) mostly highway with average of 24+. That was disappointing, as I drove most of the way under 70mph and over 75 miles less than 60mph.. it about killed me, but I didn't want to overdo the "breakin". Hopefully, the mileage will increase. :)
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    Sonata V6 owners are reporting great mileage if they take it easy on acceleration. Maybe your foot is too heavy. :)

    My last tank got 29.68mpg measured. Nothing wrong with that!
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    It performs just like the 2003 and up models. It is one of the best handling big-league midsizers out there, and you pay for it with the ride. You should have realized its athletic nature when you test drove it. Do you have a V-6 (larger 17" tires)? Which model did you have last? It DRIVES excellent, it just doesn't ride as smooth as offerings from Toyota and Hyundai. Sorry you didn't realize this before purchase time, but I doubt your car has a problem.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    The V6 Mazda 6 has better handling, but the Accord V6 has a better engine (unless of course, you opt for the MazdaSpeed6, which is a different story).

    To me, "performance" is a combination of acceleration, handling, and braking, and the Altima is tops in this segment in that regard.
  • lightfootfllightfootfl Member Posts: 442
    I understand that, and have been trying to be extra careful about my driving technique. Still haven't been able to make it anywhere near what many are reporting. I have been using the old method (odometer miles/gals=mpg) and the dash computer also.. they match pretty close, within 1 mpg of one another. I also have added an extra temporary gauge that computes everything as well,(ScanGuage)it covers multiple things directly from the car's computer hookup. I use it to reflect on my day's high rpm, speed, etc as well as several other things. I try to keep a running log of several operational aspects for my own personal information. Obviously, my records are pretty accurate on all points. Just a personal quirk of mine. Thanks for your reply. I think your mileage is more what I would have expected. van
  • kingsalmonkingsalmon Member Posts: 97
    Mr. leadfoot,

    There were reviews comparing Sonata's cabin noise to that of the Lexus and Hyundai benchmarked the Lexus cabin noise. Cabin noise is significantly less than its Toyota counterpart. You're statement has nothing to stand on what so ever.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I was looking at the Accord/Camry/Fusion/Sonata comparo article, not the review from August 2005 which you posted. But interesting how C/D got about 1/2 second faster 0-60 last summer than AutoWeek did, then got about 1 second faster on the 2nd test. I am wondering if it was in fact the same car that C/D tested both times and acceleration improved with time, which often happens. Some of the other numbers were very close between the two C/D tests, including 1/4 mile and braking.

    So I still don't think AutoWeek was trying very hard. ;)
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Sonata can't beat a three year old car. After three years of Accord wins, Camry won the comparo with the 07 model, but I have the feeling the Accord will be back on top come 08, and the next generation. Camry and Accord are the two best. The rest are all racing for 3rd place.

    http://www.edmunds.com/apps/vdpcontainers/do/vdp/articleId=109710/pageNumber=3
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,601
    Elroy, Sonata may not be the best in a "money is no object" comparison of these cars. But it is certainly the best or darn near the best on a value scale.

    Five years ago, would you have thought you would be attempting to disparage the Sonata by saying it was fighting it out for third place, in your opinion?

    Who knows what will happen to the Accord two generations from now (or any car for that matter), maybe the greatest thing since sliced bread or maybe a failed attempt (think the old Caddy V4-6-8 engine of years ago) to revolutionize cars?
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    bhmr,

    Well said. Many may criticize the 3rd place finisher in this category, but that's like criticizing a bronze medalist. This segment is so competitive, and the cars so refined that 3rd place is still an honor. Even a close 4th place car in this segment can still be an excellent car. All the cars have good solid underpinnings, and will be competing for buyers by making even better refinements and prices. Isn't competition wonderful?
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    You surely missed the point of the comparison. Anyway, if you would have continued reading through the rest of the article linked, you would have seen both of the senior editors recommended the Sonata over the other three in the comparison. The nod is mostly based on its incredible value and features, unbeatable warranty, superb safety, braking, roominess, and NVH, adequate performance and handling, and many other merits. At 20K, consumers are able to pick up a V6 with loads of options vs. a base I4 on the competitor's level of pricing.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    The Accord and Camry have been fighting this battle for #1 for how many years? 10-15 years or more. The Snotta will not change that. The Altima has also come out with a new, improved model. So the best the Snotta can do is fight for 4th with the Fusion, or whatever is next on the list. Yes, you paid less, and you got less.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Yes, you paid less, and you got less.

    Well, that's somewhat true...you get much more than you pay for (on the surface anyway) with a Sonata GLS V6 vs an Accord LX (similar in price). I'm an Accord owner and can admit that.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    I have an 03 EXV6. I paid more, and I got more. I can admit that too.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,601
    Elroy, why the anger? Read all the reviews on the left of the link you posted. Seems like the editors really liked the Sonata.

    You didn't answer the question in #2287, "Five years ago, would you have thought you would be attempting to disparage the Sonata by saying it was fighting it out for third place, in your opinion?"

    We should all agree that all of these cars are good. It's up to each person to determine which car offers him the features he feels are most important for the money he can spend. Some place a premium on styling, some on "performance," some creature comforts, etc. Everyone should look at the overall package that best suits them.

    Yes, I paid less for my '05 Sonata SV, $16,705 before taxes and fees to the state. And, I got MORE than I could have gotten by paying $4000 more for another comparable make/model. After owning the car for a little over a year I have had no problems, everything does what it's supposed to do, including the heated seats, auto climate control and homelink mirror. It's been to the dealer twice; for oil changes.
  • driverdmdriverdm Member Posts: 505
    "We should all agree that all of these cars are good. It's up to each person to determine which car offers him the features he feels are most important for the money he can spend. Some place a premium on styling, some on "performance," some creature comforts, etc. Everyone should look at the overall package that best suits them".

    I couldn't agree more. Last time I brought up this subject, I was ridiculed so badly, I took a break from the board, but here goes. Some of us also like to change their cars often and live at a means where it is financial feasible to do so if we so desire. For those of us in that category, the Sonata may have a large flaw because due to all the incentives and fleet sales, the resale value will be low. That puts a big dent in it for me because I like to pay my cars off in three to four years and get something new.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Actually no one is criticizing the Sonata. Most if not all posters have stated what a fine, competitive vehicle it is. 3rd is no dishonor as you said, just at the last Gen Camry was 3rd in the previous comparo.

    There is no negative attached to being 3rd or 4th at this present time.

    As you correctly state we all benefit from the competition.
  • choe13choe13 Member Posts: 348
    lets say 3 years ago this many haters of this car and even fans of it didn't even knew this car existed in this face of the world and now this car is getting some attention.
  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Member Posts: 425
    jrock65 writes: To me, "performance" is a combination of acceleration, handling, and braking, and the Altima is tops in this segment in that regard.

    hmmmm....i liked the first part of the sentence but...hmmmmm.
    i love the engine in the altima, it has excellent low rpm punch. probably the most useful powerband in everyday driving if you like to dust people. but steering wise, i found myself on my test drive not really trusting where the car was going to put me. it felt a bit rubbery and artificial. i know these words are a bit vague, but i actually liked the steering on the accord more than the altima.

    if i had to rate steering feel (of the cars i've actually driven) it'd be this:

    wrx
    mazda 6
    civic si
    audi a3
    rsx
    legacy gt
    accord
    altima
    malibu
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    When you say you like the Sonata, and you think it's a great car, I have no problem with that. But when you say it is better than my Accord, I have a problem with that. That's your opinion. So I express my opinion too. To get a better car than the EXV6 Accord you will have to spend at least $30,000. 07 Camry, Lexus, Acura, BMW, etc.
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    "Yes, you paid less, and you got less." How is that? Perception once again. Every thought you paid more and got less? Hyundia did its homework, Ford did its homework and they did it for less $$ than Honda and Camry. Why is this so hard for people to believe that there may actually be a better value than a Camry or Accord? Don't always believe what you read. Anyone who believs Accord/Camry will always be ontop, remember when Ford/GM used to produce the top selling sedans? Market changes, peoples taste in vehicles change. Change is good..
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    "Sonata may have a large flaw because due to all the incentives and fleet sales, the resale value will be low.:

    True, resale may be low. But at the same time you paid less in initial cost of the vehicle right? Sometimes up to $4K less. Thats a chunk of change... Also financing comes into play too.. Hyundia may offer low APR, where Honda/Toyota do not. Many factors here folks.... ;)
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,601
    I don't recall ever saying the Sonata--not Snotta--was "better" than the Accord.

    Please respond to a question asked twice before: "Five years ago, would you have thought you would be attempting to disparage the Sonata by saying it was fighting it out for third place, in your opinion?"
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    No, I didn't think the Sonata would be fighting it out for third place. I would have probably put it back in 5th or 6th, with the Malibu, and the Galant. But just because it moved up 2 spots on the list, that doesn't impress me much. The Altima made great strides too, when Nissan came out with the new model in 02. It (the Altima) did not unseat Camry or Accord from the top two spots, and neither will the Sonata. I think with the new 07 model, the Altima will easily hold on to the #3 spot.
  • driverdmdriverdm Member Posts: 505
    zzzoom6 get out my head!!! I was writing a post for that, saying he forgot steering feel and road connection. I have something to add to your post though. Your mind reading skills still ahve a ways to go.

    A Lexus IS350 is faster than a BMW 3 Series. But the BMW is a driver's car while the Lexus is just a luxury car. Likewise, a Lexus LS runs hard, but noone would pick it as a performance sedan as much as a base line Audi A8. And my last example, the Audi A8 compared to a VW Phaeton.

    The Lexus IS also handles well but the feel just isn't there. It isn't even comparable to an Infiniti G35 in that respect. In the same way the Sonata and Camry pale to the Mazda6, Accord, Legacy, and Fusion in driving dynamics. They are made to be cushy with no sacrfices. The latter will sacrifice something, might be space, might be ride comfort, but when you drive them, you feel like you are seriously driving as opposed to being driven.

    Again the Sonata is barnone the best value. The Camry may be the closest thing you can get to a luxury car in the segment, but that doesn't make them the perfect car for everyone.

    Zzzoom6 have you seen the New Altima in person? Real sweet. THe next 6 better come ready to run and with styling to match. Though the CX-7 is a beauty.
  • driverdmdriverdm Member Posts: 505
    "True, resale may be low. But at the same time you paid less in initial cost of the vehicle right? Sometimes up to $4K less. Thats a chunk of change... Also financing comes into play too.. Hyundia may offer low APR, where Honda/Toyota do not. Many factors here folks.... "

    Even after you factor those in, the Sonata's resale will be still lower. Remember that the fleet sales are under what the consumer price is. So if you got $4K off, the fleet usually got even more. Though that argument has been made before, when you work it out on the five year depreciation, it does not equal out to the same. This is also a factor of the fact that the Accord and Camry have so much demand, even used. The Sonata will see less demand, as it is seeing less demand new. These factors also cause for a disparity if your compare transaction price to resale value.

    Additionally, we have to take the information from the sources. Ford, GM, Honda, Toyota, have all mentioned on several occassions the negative affect that fleet and incentives have on resale value. Don't you think if it all equaled out, GM and Ford, the incentive/fleet kings would have said that instead and kept the incentives high?
  • choe13choe13 Member Posts: 348
    is this what you call top notch quality??

    The sonata has had none so far. The sonata in my books is the car to beat in terms of defects reduction = quality
  • driverdmdriverdm Member Posts: 505
    elroy5, if you saw the Altima in person, there would be no doubt in your mind. But then again I think the Altima may be one of those high style, high performance niche cars where the styling will polarize to a degree but the people who buy will be a loyal following at a high transaction price. Sort of like the Legacy.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    The new 07Altima looks a lot like the Maxima (doesn't make much sense to me, same car two different names). It almost looks like they used the same headlights.
  • driverdmdriverdm Member Posts: 505
    Everyone has recalls. It's like that bumper sticker "**** Happens"

    I too was surprised since it came from King Pin in Quality Toyota, but also look at the other recalls. Some surprises include:

    2006 LEXUS GS, IS MODELS
    2006 TOYOTA TACOMA
    2006 MERCEDES-BENZ R CLASS

    Even Lexus, as bulletproof when it comes to quality as an army tank does it. Also, I thought the Sonata did have a small recall when it was introduced. I may be gatting that and the Civic confused. I know the Civic had one but I thought the Sonata did as well.
  • ctalkctalk Member Posts: 646
    The sonata has had none so far.
    Wrong.

    link title

    Is this what you call top notch quality? ;)

    Everyone has recalls, even the Hyundai Sonata.
  • driverdmdriverdm Member Posts: 505
    elroy5 did you see it in person? Many cars, like the Merc CLS and Jag XK look very different in pictures than in person. High style cars do that. The Jeep Compass is an abomination in pictures but in person it only looks slightly beaten with the ugly stick. People who have seen the Altima in person agree with the discriprion of it looking like a "four door" Z. It looks smaller than the current one, though it only lost an inch in wheelbase. I haven't seen how much it lost or didn't lose from nose to tail though.
  • driverdmdriverdm Member Posts: 505
    ctalk it is always good to have friends with a good search engine. ;)
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Every thought you paid more and got less? Hyundia did its homework, Ford did its homework and they did it for less $$ than Honda and Camry

    Selling price and costs have little to do with one another.

    Actually what if this was the reality?
    COSTS:
    Honda and Toyota and Hyundai all have the same basic cost of production using non union labor with the most modern plant and equipment and methodology. Ford has it's main plant in Mexico at a big freight disadvantage or has a huge union burden and higher costs at it's older plants.

    Honda and Toyota have perfected their production and plant processes to a somewhat higher level than Hyundai since the new Ala plant is still on the learning curve.

    Cost structure: ( let's give them numbers )
    Honda and Toyota lowest ( $12000 ) per unit
    Hyundai in the middle ( $13000 ) per unit
    Ford is the Highest ( $15000 ) per unit

    Sales:
    Honda and Toyota dominate this segment as No's 1 & 2
    Ford was strong and trying to get back to #3
    Hyundai is a fast rising #6

    Pricing: ( See costs above )
    Toyota and Honda typical wholesale price : $20000
    Ford typical wholesale price : $17000
    Hyundai typical wholesale price : $15000

    Profits: ( Who has the best longterm prospects )
    Toyota and Honda 400K units annually @ $8,000 profit each;
    Ford 300K units annually at $2000 profit each;
    Hyundai 200K units annually at $2000 profit each.

    Do the multiplication:
    Toyota 450K X $8000
    Honda 400K X $8000
    Ford 300K X $2000
    Hyundai 200K X $2000

    Now who would you like to bet on?
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    It's not a recall.. it affects 160 vehicles in total.
  • driverdmdriverdm Member Posts: 505
    Even though it only affects a small number. It is a recall. Look at the amount of cars being called in.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I didn't know Ford's labor force in Mexico was union, and that their wages were the same as those of workers in Japan and the U.S.--or actually higher it appears. You learn something new every day!

    Also I saw an ad yesterday for Accord LXs for $18,500. That was retail. Since I4s are the bulk of the midsized market, that puts your numbers (for Honda at least) into some doubt.

    Hyundai on the other hand seems to be pushing V6s lately, and their typical price is higher than that of I4s. Hmmm... maybe there is some method to this pushing of V6s by Hyundai.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    ??? it's 160 vehicles. That's it at most.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Modification crossed your post.

    ToyHon typical wholesale prices I'm doing a weighted avg guesstimate. I think $20000 is realistic. The Accord is nearing the end of it's cycle but I'd guess that that number is fairly close.
  • driverdmdriverdm Member Posts: 505
    Backy get off it already. Ford's main product is the F-150 and trucks that are produced in the US!!! Ford's American workforce is still larger than I believe the foreign makers workforce period.

    His point is well taken and well known. Ford and GM's union workkforse is killing them. The WSJ has had several articles on it with the recent Delphi bankruptcy that if you factor in health care, job banks, etc. the cost for the American worker is much higher than the Japanese and Korean workers. Keep in mind Korean workers striked because they were getting paid too low while the company was raking in the dollars.

    We may not know the exact costs to the company for their cars but we understand fully that Ford/GM pays the most, then the Japanese, then the Koreans, and at the bottom will soon be the Chinese. Let's not argue for the sake of arguing.

    This forum isn't about profits anyway. Let's get back to the cars. I can't wait for the new Altima to hit the streets. I have had bad experiences with Nissan's and Altimas in particular in the past.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Actually Backy is correct as my post crossed his. In this forum we are discussing only the midsized vehicle like the Fu / ans - which are all made in Hermosillo, Mex by nonunion labor - probably at lower cost even than the transplants.

    But.. the plant has a huge transport disadvantage to the heartland and the E Coast and the productivity/reliability will be suspect until proven otherwise ( see IIHS crashtest results ).
  • driverdmdriverdm Member Posts: 505
    AH HAA! Indeed that is true. Backy I apologize for the unneeded post. The cost of the Fusion may still be high because of the US content and all the prelanuch R&D that went into the vehicle.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    "Profits: ( Who has the best longterm prospects )
    Toyota and Honda 400K units annually $8,000 profit each;
    Ford 300K units annually at $2000 profit each;
    Hyundai 200K units annually at $2000 profit each."

    Those "profits" are just way out of touch with the real world. Toyota and Honda aren't making $8000 profit on each Camry and Accord.

    Manufacturer profits per vehicle:

    Nissan: $1603
    Toyota: $1488
    Honda: $1250

    The above numbers are for all cars, so it includes high profit Lexus/Infiniti/Acura and SUVs.

    The midsize, mainstream segment is a high-volume, low profit segment. I would guess that the profit margin on Camrys and Accords is maybe $500 to $600.

    http://www.thecarconnection.com/Auto_News/Auto_News/Toyota_GM_Tops_in_05_Harbour- - _Report.S175.A8722.html
  • choe13choe13 Member Posts: 348
    Can i ask , whats with you and toyota? why don't you compare cars individually than try to use the toyota emblem for your justification??

    does cost and profits really matter?? do u really know how much hyundai owns korea in terms of sales(and korea has a massive population more 10 million plus). Hyundai is a very rich company i mean have you heard who is one of the biggest sponsor for the 2008 world soccer championships in germany?

    i think you are scared of this company just like toyota is
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    When you say you like the Sonata, and you think it's a great car, I have no problem with that. But when you say it is better than my Accord, I have a problem with that

    I'm looking, but I can't find where anyone actually said that. The Sonata is better for the money, but certainly not better than the Camry or Accord.
  • choe13choe13 Member Posts: 348
    Naviation option and active geometry i'm pretty sure about this. Should make this car even more appealing, the active geometry which is a hyundai patent should make this car better in the handling department more than currently
  • booyahcramerbooyahcramer Member Posts: 172
    Hyundai is a very rich company

    Rich - at the expense of the people of SK tho. Corruption at the highest levels of the company - $ to pay government officials. Isn't Hyundai and the SK government one in the same anyway? Sonata prices are obviously subsidized by the people of SK since the collusion between Hyundai and the government is apparently rampant. Sonata prices may be headed up.

    I wonder if somebody whacked Chung Mong-koo to silence him....
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    "(and korea has a massive population more 10 million plus)"

    Just a correction. S. Korea has a population of 50 million.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    Rich - at the expense of the people of SK tho.

    That's a cynical way to look at things. Politics has nothing to do with the cars or their relative merits. When you think about it, someone has to work for every penny earned. I bet every one of the workers in SK plants are happy to be working. Nothing wrong with that! Ford in Mexico, Camry in Ohio, Honda in Kentucky, Sonata in Ala... all the people have jobs, and all produce nice cars. It wouldn't make me mad to own any of their cars. :D
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    lets say 3 years ago this many haters of this car and even fans of it didn't even knew this car existed in this face of the world and now this car is getting some attention.

    I come away from your post missing the point of it, I think. A little help?
This discussion has been closed.