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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread
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Comments
My last tank got 29.68mpg measured. Nothing wrong with that!
To me, "performance" is a combination of acceleration, handling, and braking, and the Altima is tops in this segment in that regard.
There were reviews comparing Sonata's cabin noise to that of the Lexus and Hyundai benchmarked the Lexus cabin noise. Cabin noise is significantly less than its Toyota counterpart. You're statement has nothing to stand on what so ever.
So I still don't think AutoWeek was trying very hard.
http://www.edmunds.com/apps/vdpcontainers/do/vdp/articleId=109710/pageNumber=3
Five years ago, would you have thought you would be attempting to disparage the Sonata by saying it was fighting it out for third place, in your opinion?
Who knows what will happen to the Accord two generations from now (or any car for that matter), maybe the greatest thing since sliced bread or maybe a failed attempt (think the old Caddy V4-6-8 engine of years ago) to revolutionize cars?
Well said. Many may criticize the 3rd place finisher in this category, but that's like criticizing a bronze medalist. This segment is so competitive, and the cars so refined that 3rd place is still an honor. Even a close 4th place car in this segment can still be an excellent car. All the cars have good solid underpinnings, and will be competing for buyers by making even better refinements and prices. Isn't competition wonderful?
Well, that's somewhat true...you get much more than you pay for (on the surface anyway) with a Sonata GLS V6 vs an Accord LX (similar in price). I'm an Accord owner and can admit that.
You didn't answer the question in #2287, "Five years ago, would you have thought you would be attempting to disparage the Sonata by saying it was fighting it out for third place, in your opinion?"
We should all agree that all of these cars are good. It's up to each person to determine which car offers him the features he feels are most important for the money he can spend. Some place a premium on styling, some on "performance," some creature comforts, etc. Everyone should look at the overall package that best suits them.
Yes, I paid less for my '05 Sonata SV, $16,705 before taxes and fees to the state. And, I got MORE than I could have gotten by paying $4000 more for another comparable make/model. After owning the car for a little over a year I have had no problems, everything does what it's supposed to do, including the heated seats, auto climate control and homelink mirror. It's been to the dealer twice; for oil changes.
I couldn't agree more. Last time I brought up this subject, I was ridiculed so badly, I took a break from the board, but here goes. Some of us also like to change their cars often and live at a means where it is financial feasible to do so if we so desire. For those of us in that category, the Sonata may have a large flaw because due to all the incentives and fleet sales, the resale value will be low. That puts a big dent in it for me because I like to pay my cars off in three to four years and get something new.
There is no negative attached to being 3rd or 4th at this present time.
As you correctly state we all benefit from the competition.
hmmmm....i liked the first part of the sentence but...hmmmmm.
i love the engine in the altima, it has excellent low rpm punch. probably the most useful powerband in everyday driving if you like to dust people. but steering wise, i found myself on my test drive not really trusting where the car was going to put me. it felt a bit rubbery and artificial. i know these words are a bit vague, but i actually liked the steering on the accord more than the altima.
if i had to rate steering feel (of the cars i've actually driven) it'd be this:
wrx
mazda 6
civic si
audi a3
rsx
legacy gt
accord
altima
malibu
True, resale may be low. But at the same time you paid less in initial cost of the vehicle right? Sometimes up to $4K less. Thats a chunk of change... Also financing comes into play too.. Hyundia may offer low APR, where Honda/Toyota do not. Many factors here folks....
Please respond to a question asked twice before: "Five years ago, would you have thought you would be attempting to disparage the Sonata by saying it was fighting it out for third place, in your opinion?"
A Lexus IS350 is faster than a BMW 3 Series. But the BMW is a driver's car while the Lexus is just a luxury car. Likewise, a Lexus LS runs hard, but noone would pick it as a performance sedan as much as a base line Audi A8. And my last example, the Audi A8 compared to a VW Phaeton.
The Lexus IS also handles well but the feel just isn't there. It isn't even comparable to an Infiniti G35 in that respect. In the same way the Sonata and Camry pale to the Mazda6, Accord, Legacy, and Fusion in driving dynamics. They are made to be cushy with no sacrfices. The latter will sacrifice something, might be space, might be ride comfort, but when you drive them, you feel like you are seriously driving as opposed to being driven.
Again the Sonata is barnone the best value. The Camry may be the closest thing you can get to a luxury car in the segment, but that doesn't make them the perfect car for everyone.
Zzzoom6 have you seen the New Altima in person? Real sweet. THe next 6 better come ready to run and with styling to match. Though the CX-7 is a beauty.
Even after you factor those in, the Sonata's resale will be still lower. Remember that the fleet sales are under what the consumer price is. So if you got $4K off, the fleet usually got even more. Though that argument has been made before, when you work it out on the five year depreciation, it does not equal out to the same. This is also a factor of the fact that the Accord and Camry have so much demand, even used. The Sonata will see less demand, as it is seeing less demand new. These factors also cause for a disparity if your compare transaction price to resale value.
Additionally, we have to take the information from the sources. Ford, GM, Honda, Toyota, have all mentioned on several occassions the negative affect that fleet and incentives have on resale value. Don't you think if it all equaled out, GM and Ford, the incentive/fleet kings would have said that instead and kept the incentives high?
The sonata has had none so far. The sonata in my books is the car to beat in terms of defects reduction = quality
I too was surprised since it came from King Pin in Quality Toyota, but also look at the other recalls. Some surprises include:
2006 LEXUS GS, IS MODELS
2006 TOYOTA TACOMA
2006 MERCEDES-BENZ R CLASS
Even Lexus, as bulletproof when it comes to quality as an army tank does it. Also, I thought the Sonata did have a small recall when it was introduced. I may be gatting that and the Civic confused. I know the Civic had one but I thought the Sonata did as well.
Wrong.
link title
Is this what you call top notch quality?
Everyone has recalls, even the Hyundai Sonata.
Selling price and costs have little to do with one another.
Actually what if this was the reality?
COSTS:
Honda and Toyota and Hyundai all have the same basic cost of production using non union labor with the most modern plant and equipment and methodology. Ford has it's main plant in Mexico at a big freight disadvantage or has a huge union burden and higher costs at it's older plants.
Honda and Toyota have perfected their production and plant processes to a somewhat higher level than Hyundai since the new Ala plant is still on the learning curve.
Cost structure: ( let's give them numbers )
Honda and Toyota lowest ( $12000 ) per unit
Hyundai in the middle ( $13000 ) per unit
Ford is the Highest ( $15000 ) per unit
Sales:
Honda and Toyota dominate this segment as No's 1 & 2
Ford was strong and trying to get back to #3
Hyundai is a fast rising #6
Pricing: ( See costs above )
Toyota and Honda typical wholesale price : $20000
Ford typical wholesale price : $17000
Hyundai typical wholesale price : $15000
Profits: ( Who has the best longterm prospects )
Toyota and Honda 400K units annually @ $8,000 profit each;
Ford 300K units annually at $2000 profit each;
Hyundai 200K units annually at $2000 profit each.
Do the multiplication:
Toyota 450K X $8000
Honda 400K X $8000
Ford 300K X $2000
Hyundai 200K X $2000
Now who would you like to bet on?
Also I saw an ad yesterday for Accord LXs for $18,500. That was retail. Since I4s are the bulk of the midsized market, that puts your numbers (for Honda at least) into some doubt.
Hyundai on the other hand seems to be pushing V6s lately, and their typical price is higher than that of I4s. Hmmm... maybe there is some method to this pushing of V6s by Hyundai.
ToyHon typical wholesale prices I'm doing a weighted avg guesstimate. I think $20000 is realistic. The Accord is nearing the end of it's cycle but I'd guess that that number is fairly close.
His point is well taken and well known. Ford and GM's union workkforse is killing them. The WSJ has had several articles on it with the recent Delphi bankruptcy that if you factor in health care, job banks, etc. the cost for the American worker is much higher than the Japanese and Korean workers. Keep in mind Korean workers striked because they were getting paid too low while the company was raking in the dollars.
We may not know the exact costs to the company for their cars but we understand fully that Ford/GM pays the most, then the Japanese, then the Koreans, and at the bottom will soon be the Chinese. Let's not argue for the sake of arguing.
This forum isn't about profits anyway. Let's get back to the cars. I can't wait for the new Altima to hit the streets. I have had bad experiences with Nissan's and Altimas in particular in the past.
But.. the plant has a huge transport disadvantage to the heartland and the E Coast and the productivity/reliability will be suspect until proven otherwise ( see IIHS crashtest results ).
Toyota and Honda 400K units annually $8,000 profit each;
Ford 300K units annually at $2000 profit each;
Hyundai 200K units annually at $2000 profit each."
Those "profits" are just way out of touch with the real world. Toyota and Honda aren't making $8000 profit on each Camry and Accord.
Manufacturer profits per vehicle:
Nissan: $1603
Toyota: $1488
Honda: $1250
The above numbers are for all cars, so it includes high profit Lexus/Infiniti/Acura and SUVs.
The midsize, mainstream segment is a high-volume, low profit segment. I would guess that the profit margin on Camrys and Accords is maybe $500 to $600.
http://www.thecarconnection.com/Auto_News/Auto_News/Toyota_GM_Tops_in_05_Harbour- - _Report.S175.A8722.html
does cost and profits really matter?? do u really know how much hyundai owns korea in terms of sales(and korea has a massive population more 10 million plus). Hyundai is a very rich company i mean have you heard who is one of the biggest sponsor for the 2008 world soccer championships in germany?
i think you are scared of this company just like toyota is
I'm looking, but I can't find where anyone actually said that. The Sonata is better for the money, but certainly not better than the Camry or Accord.
Rich - at the expense of the people of SK tho. Corruption at the highest levels of the company - $ to pay government officials. Isn't Hyundai and the SK government one in the same anyway? Sonata prices are obviously subsidized by the people of SK since the collusion between Hyundai and the government is apparently rampant. Sonata prices may be headed up.
I wonder if somebody whacked Chung Mong-koo to silence him....
Just a correction. S. Korea has a population of 50 million.
That's a cynical way to look at things. Politics has nothing to do with the cars or their relative merits. When you think about it, someone has to work for every penny earned. I bet every one of the workers in SK plants are happy to be working. Nothing wrong with that! Ford in Mexico, Camry in Ohio, Honda in Kentucky, Sonata in Ala... all the people have jobs, and all produce nice cars. It wouldn't make me mad to own any of their cars.
I come away from your post missing the point of it, I think. A little help?