Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

pg48477

When Honda first came to US it was not trouble free, however it was not worse then the competition. Back then any American car had to be taken back to the dealer for numerous problems right after delivery. So back then Honda did not make a bad reputation it just did not make a good one. With time Honda improved reliability and competition did not; that’s why big 3 is now called big 2.5 give it few more years it will become big 0.

Hyundai also came out with unreliable product, even more so then Honda did back in the day. But this time market was extremely competitive and Hyundai created bad name for itself. It will take years and many vehicles to overcome bad rep., Americans don’t forget that easily and try to stick with what works. CamCord works and till it doesn’t, no matter what others do it’s still be at the top.

ace35

Hyundai also came out with unreliable product, even more so then Honda did back in the day. But this time market was extremely competitive and Hyundai created bad name for itself. It will take years and many vehicles to overcome bad rep., Americans don’t forget that easily and try to stick with what works. CamCord works and till it doesn’t, no matter what others do it’s still be at the top.

I understand your point, but dont necessarily agree with you, being a consumer myself i think the camcords are great vehicle's and deserving of their reputation. But i feel the competition is neck and neck right now, and camcords are not that far ahead of the pack where they can charge a premium over the other's. This was possibly the case in 2000, but now the midsize class is oozing with quality and the consumer has many viable choices. IF the camcords retain there higher prices over the others, i fully believe they wont stay at the top for long.

bhmr59

My recollection is different from your story.

I didn't know anyone who had to take their American cars back to the dealer for numerous problems right after delivery. (That doesn't mean it never happened).

The early Honda's were cheap cars. The only thing they had going for them was great gas milage compared to other cars of the time. Of course, Honda made great improvement in 10 years or so.

elroy5

One of my friends got me a job where he was working. It was a 70 mile trip (one way). This was back in 91. He had an old 81 Accord, and he drove it to work one day. It was underpowered and small. But I remember how well the suspension worked, and how solid the car was for it's size. So Honda was making pretty good cars 25 years ago. They just had to give the Americans what they wanted, more power and more room. The Honda Accord was never a "piece of junk" car. That's why it's still called the Accord today (no bad memories from past Accords).

backy

I didn't know anyone who had to take their American cars back to the dealer for numerous problems right after delivery.

Now you do. 1995 Mercury Mystique (fondly known by me as the Mystake). It was in the dealer's service bay more in its first few months than in my garage (or on the road). So the good showing by the Fulan in the JD Power IQS is nothing to sneeze at.

pg48477

I agree, competition is closer then ever, however vehicles are also closer to perfection. CamCord is so good at this point in time it is hard and almost impossible to make a better vehicle. And that is what big 2.5 and Hyundai need to do in order to gain trust and sway costumers from CamCord, build a BETTER CAR not necessary cheaper but better.
As for the price, it is not deciding factor, 1-2K on 20-25 K car will not be a deal breaker for 95% of the buyers. For the CamCord owner the question is: why change something that works grate and gets better with every new model. For that reason, I don’t see many CamCord owners to test the waters. What Hyundai needs to duo is try to get costumers that are new to the segment, but again for that they need to make a better car, and like I said at this point I don’t think it’s possible.

pg48477

The bottom line is that Honda was never perceived as unreliable, at least not more then any other brand on the market at the time.

w9cw

pg48477 wrote: "What Hyundai needs to duo is try to get costumers that are new to the segment, but again for that they need to make a better car, and like I said at this point I don’t think it’s possible."

I agree on your first premise, and the latter one as well. However, Hyundai is also marketing to the pre-existing Honda and Toyota customer, as I have been for over 30 years. (For example, I bought one of the first Honda 600's east of the Mississippi). But, I bought a Hyundai this time last December. Although it's far too early to tell, I'm very happy with the purchase after 6 months. Check back with me in 10 years!

m1miata

Before any negotiations at the dealerships, they were selling the Sonata for $19,500 with the V6. Now I would say that has to be some $3,000 to $5,000 under Honda and Toyota. And this includes ESC, and side air bags standard, as well as, alloy wheels, Michelin tires, and more goodies. I would say that could be a deal maker! That said, some will buy an Accord i4 or say an Altima i4 if around $20K, or under. Are the Japan makes worth the difference? I guess time will tell.
-Loren

pg48477

If you don’t mind me asking, what made you buy a Hyundai? Was it the price or something else? Did you just wanted to experience something different? I just don’t see anyone buying Sonata because they think it’s a better car, because it’s not.

pg48477

I’m not sure about Sonata, but fully loaded Accord, including leather and Navi, can be had for around 25k. Like I said real world prices should be around 1-2K difference.

backy

"Better" is relative to the buyer's needs. For some people (including me), the Sonata is "better" than choices like the Accord. For many, many others, the Accord is "better" than the Sonata.

bhmr59

backy, I think you missed something. "When Honda first came to US it was not trouble free, however it was not worse then the competition. Back then any American car had to be taken back to the dealer for numerous problems right after delivery."

Honda certainly came to the US before 1995.

And, yes pg, the first Honda's were unreliable. But in a few short years they made great inprovements to get to where they have been for the last 15 to 20 years.

Yes a car manufacturer can make great strides in a few years and it may take a while for general public awareness to catch on.

backy

What did I miss? You said you didn't know anyone who had to take an American car to the dealer for numerous problems right after delivery. I quoted you exactly (copy/paste). So now you know someone who has done that. Very simple, let's try not to over-analyze, much too late in the day for that. :confuse:

pg48477

And, yes PG, the first Honda's were unreliable. But in a few short years they made great inprovements to get to where they have been for the last 15 to 20 years.

That is not the point.
Honda started as unreliable brand, but it started on the same level as all other manufacturers were, UNRELIBLE. In a few short years, like you said, Honda surpassed all others by making RELIBLE cars. And they made a name for themselves.

On contrary, Hyundai started as unreliable brand in the highly competitive market. They did make their cars more reliable in a few short years, but that just made them as good, or almost as good as Honda. In order for public to see Hyundai differently they need to do more, much more.

Everything is relative

Yes a car manufacturer can make great strides in a few years and it may take a while for general public awareness to catch on.

Agreed

pg48477

Don’t get wrong, Sonata is a good car. But I think, at least at this point, it is riskier choice and difference in price not worth the risk.
Can you elaborate on how Sonata is better in your eyes then Accord?

backy

More as in beating Honda in reliability studies? More as in backing their vehicles with a warranty than is much longer than Honda's? More as in offering comparable quality and more features for much less money?

What was the "much more" you had in mind?

backy

Roomier (for people and cargo). Smoother ride (you don't feel every little imperfection in the road). Standard ESC and traction control even on base models. Better styling. Longer warranty. Niceties like struts on trunk lid. All this for thousands of bucks less.

gefilte

is angelina jolie more attractive than say, barbara bush? if your answer is at least 'maybe'than you look at your car as more than point A to point B transportation.is the lexus 350 more attractive than a chevy malibu? the more i see the sonata on the street and in a parking lot, the less ' i want to be seen with it' get my drift?any given car may last 'forever' but if you dont like the way it makes you feel, it it dont mean nothin'

backy

Good point. Not a good idea to buy a car that you can't stand to be seen with.

m1miata

Their Angelina Jolie model is the Tiburon
So I take it you may not like the Azera too?

I kinda like the Fusion/Milan, Mazda6, and Altima.
The Accord is not bad. Kinda a sleeper, but smooth. The Coupe is pretty sharp looking, but I guess this is the sedan forum here. How about them Art & Science cars? At first I thought that Cadillac had lost their minds, then it sort of takes hold of you. That bold look stands out, yet in some odd way it is not overwhelming or too trendy. This one may last. At first I thought it was something which would grow old. Now I want to see it stay around. Stay as the CTS, and not as the STS or other cars. Keep the edgy theme, and do not round it Mr. Lutz; please :shades:
-Loren

gefilte

point is. i would rather be seen with angelina than with mrs. bush.even though barbara may be a better cook and housekeeper. sometimes even qualities such as these take a 'back seat' to something (someone ) who just makes you feel so darn good hence, mrs.bush= sonata

choe13

"I just don’t see anyone buying Sonata because they think it’s a better car, because it’s not."

Handling, interior design, slightly better engine and conceived reputation is all the accord has better than the sonata

But the sonata is better at exterior styling, room, smoother ride, brakes, value(safety, convenience), pricing and even compared to interior quality, engine very comparable and now with all the awards its winning as a new quality car why not buy the sonata over the accord??

you gotto take a test drive my friend to realize how far the sonata has come

bobad

As for the price, it is not deciding factor, 1-2K on 20-25 K car will not be a deal breaker for 95% of the buyers.

I agree that 1K should not be a deal breaker for cars that are close in quality, features, and safety. However, to get a comparable equipped Accord, I would have paid $5-6K more than my Sonata.

bobad

I would MUCH rather be seen with Angelina Jolie than Barbara Streisand. Jolie and Barbara bush are a stand off. Ms. Jolie is very high maintenance. Mrs. Bush has proven to be very reliable over the years.

All kidding aside, I have no answers for people that ascribe human qualities to cars. I can't choose a spouse for them any more than I can pick a car for them. I see cars as transportation, and nothing more. I do not name my cars!

lweiss

The "Bottoms Up Approach" used by the Asian manufacturers of almost everything works every time. Be it the first Hondas, Toyotas, Hyundai- they start small and primitive, then learn from their mistakes and patiently move upmarket. From the first Honda Civic in the 1970's to the Acura RL took barely 25 years. And they did the same with motorcycles, and even other fields like copiers (I was with Xerox in the 1980's when the Japanese copiers started small and primitive, then started eating Xerox's lunch), in watches, in televisions, etc. And just wait, the first Chinese cars (the Cherry or something) will be small and primitive and cheap, and then every generation will get better, more upmarket, more of a threat to the American 2.5 and then to the other Asian and European makes.

w9cw

I've never understood the national preoccupation with Jolie, as I can think of hundreds of women more attractive than her. Everytime I look at her, I see Jon Voight (her father), just as everytime I look at a Sonata, I think of an Audi A6!

backy

When you think about it, how many people buy a mid-sized family car because of their sex appeal? Like some guy in Mid-Life Crisis mode thinking, "I just have to get a Camry!"

m1miata

Oh you meant a midwife crisis. Gotta get a minivan or Camry now. :shades:
-Loren

ontop

everytime I look at a Sonata, I think of an Audi A6

What? You gotta be kiddin me!

When you look at a burger do you see a ribeye? Yea the Sonata is a decent car, but as another poster said, pretty weak in the styling department. Only the rear looks OK (since it copied the Accord).

But then again, you think Jolie ain't that great.....

ace35

Only the rear looks OK (since it copied the Accord).

Please people, the Sonata tail resembles the accord, but i hope to god Hyundai did not want to copy that sagging drooping looking rear on the previous accord. The Sonata's tail is very well done, it looks crisp and sharp, unlike the accords.

baggs32

but i hope to god Hyundai did not want to copy that sagging drooping looking rear on the previous accord.

LOL! You can just hear the conversation in the Honda design room back when that was designed. "Let's make the rear big and saggy like those on the Americans who will be driving them. They'll never notice and they'll still buy a lot of them because we'll put a big shiny silver 'H' on the trunk too.". :P

meateater

The Sonata's tail is very well done

Cause it resembles the old Accord's....duh.

Hyundai wishes it had a eye for design. They just don't.

thegraduate

This thread is becoming more and more useful to readers hoping to compare sedans, now isn't it? I just read the last 12 posts, and it didn't accomplish that much.

How about a fresh topic?

Isn't Ford making Side-Curtains standard on its Fusion Sedan for 2007?

When is the 2007 Altima expected to debut? Does it have the beans to be an Accord beater like promised with the 2002 (though sales proved otherwise)?

Would anyone consider a loaded VW Jetta 2.5L for $26k+ over a loaded Accord, Camry, Sonata, Altima, Fusion V-6?etc?

I've seen spy shots of the Chrysler midsizers coming...they look more like a Saturn Ion than a 300C...not really a good thing IMO.

Pick a topic, any topic. Please.

badgerfan

Yes, Fusion is getting full complement of airbags standard.

From what I have seen of Altima, in styling it looks like a refresh rather than a big redesign.

I see no compelling reason to pay more for a loaded Jetta over any of the others here. Or a Passat either. Both tend to get pricey, and the jury is out as to whether VW has its initial and long term quality/reliability issues repaired.

I haven't seen enough good shots of Chrysler's new midsizers to judge anything.

Now back to who's midsize has the ugliest tail. Sonata looks OK all around but breaks no new ground. Honda made an improvement getting away from their rear horizontal lights. Camry is better in the rear, worse in the front, overall it just looks bulbous.

Altima did and will look OK with it's refresh. Fusion has just enough bling to differentiate it, I like it, but I think I like Milan a bit better. Saturn Aura may be promising. Nothing elsewhere in the GM stable excites me.

There, you can close this discussion, as there is nothing more to say!

choe13

When is the 2007 Altima expected to debut? Does it have the beans to be an Accord beater like promised with the 2002 (though sales proved otherwise)?

2002 Altima did beat the accord in two departmentm, for its engine(Awsome low end pull and 0-60), beat it in space, comparable handling. And the accord pretty much beat it on many other things. For the 2007 nissan looks like they have done their homework. Especially the interior seems like its been hugely upgraded, the exterior looks amazing and i'm sure everything else has been upgraded. I have a feeling since it was modeled from the maxima and old g35 it will be an 2008 accord beater.(spyshots looks bad exteriorly already)

Would anyone consider a loaded VW Jetta 2.5L for $26k+ over a loaded Accord, Camry, Sonata, Altima, Fusion V-6?etc?

I know for a fact there are some people who would never buy an asian made car and rather buy american or especially european for its "substancial" feel and interior quality and design. But i would personally never buy the current jetta. It costs 5 grand too much, it is underpowered, it is tightly spaced, no value, crappy salesmen who think vw are heaps better than [non-permissible content removed] and korean cars. I would buy the Sonata, Accord, Fusion, upcoming fusion in that order before buying a jetta

I've seen spy shots of the Chrysler midsizers coming...they look more like a Saturn Ion than a 300C...not really a good thing IMO.

Chrysler is a big inconsistant company. their 300 was an amazing car, but other than that they usuaully make crappy cars with lack of quality. The new calibre is crappy. And i think the new sebring will be crappy too. IF they are smart they should do what ford did to utilize mazda tech more and utilize alot more of mercedez's into their cars.(alot more!)

thegraduate

Where have you seen a spy shot of the 2008 U.S. Accord? The only thing I've seen has been of the Japan/Euro Accord (Acura TSX).

I agree with you, as I wouldn't touch a Jetta with that price and that poor reliability reputation.

I also agree with you about Chrysler. My family has had a Lebaron Convertible and a Sebring, and those were the last two Chrysler products we'll ever have (my folks and me included!).

joe97

To the best of my knowledge, there are some sketches and impressions floating around but no real spy shots to speak of...

thegraduate

That's what I had thought...I haven't even seen a sketch! The Sports4 Concept Honda showed is often mistaken for the 2008 Accord concept...but most agree that it is actually the Euro-Japanese Accord/TSX concept.

maxamillion1

I just read somewhere that Chrysler is going to be releasing pictures and full information on the Chrysler Sebring sometime next week. Don't know how true this is though...

Also, as for the Altima release (since I now work for Nissan, and I'm lovin it) the car will hit lots in November, around the same time 07 G35s hit the lots.

Here is Nissan's plan.

-Release the 07 Quest, which should be on most dealer's lots now.
-Release the 07 Maxima (due anytime within the next week)
-Release the Versa in August
-Release the Sentra in either September or October
-Release the Altima in November
-Release the Versa Sedan (which is a WASTE IMO) in Feb of 07.
The 07 Quest brochures already have pictures of the 07 Altima, Maxima and Sentra on them.

Off topic is the fact that the Titan/Armada don't get facelifted for 07...which means they'll go until 08 before major changes.

Fusion should get SAB/SAC standard for 07, as will the Altima, but NEITHER will have ABS standard for 07. Which is sad IMO, only V6 Altimas get ABS standard. No word on adjustable headrest for either at this time either.

And so far I'm loving the new Aura, with the exception of the car not having a Navigation System or manual available which kills it for me. My next car will have Navi.

wolverinejoe80

exterior design
sonata>accord

and this is coming from an 03 accord owner. hyundai definitely fixed the accord's rear. they simply made it better. i frankly think that hyundai's sonata's rear looks the best of all cars under 25k.

hyundai just needs to use a better material on interior.

elroy5

I have a feeling since it was modeled from the maxima and old g35 it will be an 2008 accord beater.(spyshots looks bad exteriorly already)

How can you say the Altima will be an 2008 Accord beater? You know nothing about the 2008 Accord. Sounds like a definite case of Honda hating here. Have you even seen a picture of one?

thegraduate

Do we really need to rehash the styling of cars anymore, especially exterior? It's all opinion anyway, and none really changes function of the car...just eye of the beholder.

Nobody is going to convince you the 2003 Accord rear was pretty, like nobody can convince me that the Sonata has the best ride/handling compromise. There is no "best" in these things, only best for you and me individually.

baggs32

Isn't Ford making Side-Curtains standard on its Fusion Sedan for 2007?

As others have said. Yes. Here's the updated order guide for the MY07 Fusion. Don't forget about AWD, Navi, and other niceties for JOB2 in Nov. or Dec. 2006 for MY07.

Would anyone consider a loaded VW Jetta 2.5L for $26k+ over a loaded Accord, Camry, Sonata, Altima, Fusion V-6?etc?

Heck no! Although I did have a GTI behind me this evening on some back roads and I was obviously holding him up while I lumbered along in the '06 Explorer. Much nicer in person than in pictures IMO.

I've seen spy shots of the Chrysler midsizers coming...they look more like a Saturn Ion than a 300C...not really a good thing IMO.


I second that motion. Oh no, I'm agreeing with a Honda guy! :P

I think people are underestimating the AWD option on the Fusion. I predict it will be a hit, around here in Western PA anyway, and others will scramble to follow shortly thereafter.

choe13

"i frankly think that hyundai's sonata's rear looks the best of all cars under 25k"

It is absolutely classy as heck. I love everything about it, especially the hyundai emblem sunk in the back like that

It is definitely no regular mid size design

joe97

Chysler Sebring 6/22

pat

Something went wrong with your link - if I can help, let me know.

jimmy81

I absolutely (as you modify it) think the Sonata styling is very lame with minimal eye candy. I guess if you're OK driving a toaster-looking car then I can see how Sonata would float your boat.

Buy Hyundai styling is an oxymoron.

seniorjose

exterior design
sonata>accord

and this is coming from an 03 accord owner. hyundai definitely fixed the accord's rear. they simply made it better. i frankly think that hyundai's sonata's rear looks the best of all cars under 25k.

The Honda Accord has been designed to appeal to those buyers who want and need style, reliability, quality and resale value. Trying to compare it to the likes of the Hyundais is really funny...good joke...chuckle. ...them durn grapes were sour anyway!

baggs32

I got it Pat. Thanks anyway. Sorry for the messed up post. One too many martinis last night.

HERE is the updated Fusion order guide. I believe the only changes are the three new colors that will be available for JOB2. Everyone should also note that a navigation system, aux audio input jack (think iPod), Sirius, and AWD among other things will be available at that time too. IIRC JOB2 begins in December for the Fusion so if you want any of those goodies you should wait a few months to order.