Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

jrock65

"When driving, you feel Accord I4 just as powerful as Accord V6."

This is just not true. If you drive them back to back, you'd know that the Accord V6 feels significantly more powerful than the 4 cyl.

jrock65

BMW 330: 255HP6600 rpm, 220 ft-lbs2750 rpm, average torque= 0.080 ft-lbs/rpm
Sonata :235 HP6000rpm, 226 ft-lbs3500 rpm, average torque=0.065 ft-lbs/rpm
Camry: 268 HP6200 rpm, 248 ft-lbs4700 rpm, average torque = 0.053 ft-lbs/rpm
Accord: 244HP6224rpm, 211 ft-lbs5000 rpm, average torque = 0.041 ft-lbs/rpm

Average torque? It really doesn't work that way. Let's take an example. The Camry makes 248 lb*ft at 4700 rpm, but that is peak torque. These engines have pretty flat torque curves. The Camry probably makes at least 240 lb*ft at 3500 rpm.

Another example is the IS350. Peak torque is rated at 277 lb*ft at 4800 rpm. But the published torque curves show that it makes about 92% (255 lb*ft) of its peak torque at 2300 rpm.
-------------

Overall, I'd rate the Camry V6 as marginally better than the Altima V6, which is marginally better than the Accord V6 and Sonata V6 (tie). But just marginally in all cases. They are all excellent engines.

w9cw

driverdm wrote: "he Kia V6 is surely smoothe and quiet but it gives a measely 185hp, which is a major drawback that everyone agrees with."

First of all, I think this has veered way of topic. If we want to dicuss 300+HP engines, everyone needs take these discussions to another thread. A 300+HP engine in a reasonably-priced midsize family sedan is an oxymoron.

And, who in the heck needs it anyway. A 185HP V6 in a car the size of the Kia Optima is plenty of power for any reaasonable human being. My Dodge Grand Caravan only has a 150HP V6 and it's served me very well for a long time, and look at the weight differential between it and an Optima! But then again, I'm not a boy racer-type either.

I find this discussion of high HP engines somewhat superflous, especially in view of ever increasing gasoline prices. Next thing, I suppose we will come across discussions of the 1250HP Bugatti on this thread!

jimmy81

Man - listen to all this trivial nonsensical BS about everyday sedans. They're all good (well except for the Malibu or Impala which are caught in a time warp of design and engineering). Lets hand it to the Koreans who have figured out how to play in the CamCord game with a smaller ante. And Ford tweaking their FMZs to respond to criticism about where their cars needed to be.

Toyota's latest Camry doesn't seem to be that big of a response to the Koreans - the engineering/tooling probably was started well before the 06 Sonata debuted. That leaves the new Accord as the real chance to show the world how to dominate this sector for a few more years (cause the 06 Accord is wheezing from a 5-6 year old design).

Time will tell. The Koreans may finally decide to stop giving away their Sonata - or they may catch an errant scud from their northern neighbors. That would leave a mark.

badgerfan

I am sure that Sonatas come standard with Scud resistant paint, right?

Or perhaps, the Sonata with a V-6 is capable of outrunning a Scud. :P

03accordman

"When driving, you feel Accord I4 just as powerful as Accord V6. In other words, Accord I4 has about the same USEFUL HP as Accord V6."

Have you driven the Accord I-4 and V6?

thegraduate

In other words, Accord I4 has about the same USEFUL HP as Accord V6.

Well, not really. When at higher speeds, I can really tell a HUGE difference in the two engines when I punch it. At higher RPMs is where both engines shine, but the V-6 definitely outshines the 4-cylinder in high-rpm pull, as well as around town grunt. It should, it's nearly 80 horsepower difference.

03accordman

There is a big difference right off the line between the V6 and the I4.

imidazol97

<Average torque? It really doesn't work that way. Let's take an example. The Camry makes 248 lb*ft at 4700 rpm, but that is peak torque. These engines have pretty flat torque curves. The Camry probably makes at least 240 lb*ft at 3500 rpm.


Do you have a graph of the torque curve for that motor? Otherwise you're guessing; peak torque is just that. Torque at typical driving speeds and motor speeds for leaving stopsigns and stoplights is what most people "feel" when driving the car.

Do you have a link to a torque graph?

jrock65

I have a graph of the IS350 torque curve, which show that 92% of the peak torque is made at less than half the peak torque rpm (2300 rpm). I can't link to it because it is in another forum, but you should find it easily with a google search.

I haven't found any graphs for the Camry, but it is a less potent version of the same GR engine.

In many of today's engines, the engine makes nearly the peak torque in the 2xxx range, then slowly creeps up or plateaus.

kdhspyder

Toyota's latest Camry doesn't seem to be that big of a response to the Koreans - the engineering/tooling probably was started well before the 06 Sonata debuted. That leaves the new Accord as the real chance to show the world how to dominate this sector for a few more years (cause the 06 Accord is wheezing from a 5-6 year old design).

The misconception here IMO is that neither Toyota nor Honda nor Nissan is seeing an immediate need to respond to Hyundai at all. The sales for all of them are strong and growing ( the Accord is stagnant somewhat as it ages ).

The Sonata serves a good purpose in appealing to the 'under $20K buyer' but so does the New Civic and the ancient Corolla. The other three will continue to serve the $22K-$26K buyers. As long as the midsize market continues to grow then everyone will be happy.
Sonata V6's @ $19K
CamCord 4c's @ $21K
AltCamCord V6's in the $22-$26 range

The misconception is that because the Sonata is well below the other three that something has to be done about it. What if ... they just built vehicles that made people want to pay $24K ( or more ) to buy?

driverdm

In this segment, since each entry is so good, a car needs to be competitive in all aspects. It cannot leave a gapping hole in any criteria. Therefore, IMO, a V6 that gives only 185hp is not competitive. Remember that V6s are optional engines. The people who buy them, buy them because THEY WANT more power. That makes the argument about what is NEEDED basically IRRELEVANT. They spent the money to get more power. Why give an engine option for those that want more that only gives 185 from a V6 when the competitions 4 cyl are running 165 -175hp? Does that make sense?

Also this forum is not just for what people find personally important. Since the car makers make V6s in the amount they do, it is relevant to compare them since like I said before, those who buy the V6, BUY IT BECAUSE THEY WANT MORE POWER. If V6s are only 20% of Camcord sales, that is still a heck of a lot of cars.

bobad

The misconception is that because the Sonata is well below the other three that something has to be done about it. What if ... they just built vehicles that made people want to pay $24K ( or more ) to buy?

Some would do just like I did, which it to compare the cars, not the badge.

Hey, how many more "interesting" comparisons am I going to read? People occasionally make comparisons on Sonata vs Civic and Corolla, because they are the same price. They are making comparisons to $31K-$45K cars because they are the same size. Please! You can't have it both ways!

Personally, when I shop for cars, I set a price limit. That's what it all boils down to anyway. Shopping for a car without a price ceiling just never happens. Even rich guys set a price limit. This time around my price limit was a spartan $19K. I shopped around for the biggest, quietest, and most comfortable car I could find within my budget. The safety had to be fair, the quality very good, the styling had to be decent. I was not very optimistic I could get a V6, and delighted when I landed one. I got just about everything I wanted for $400 under budget, OTD. I'm delighted I didn't have to settle for a smaller, less comfortable car.

joe97

"Time will tell. The Koreans may finally decide to stop giving away their Sonata - or they may catch an errant scud from their northern neighbors. That would leave a mark."

FYI - Hyundai never gave away its Sonata; just because the car is priced thousands lower than the rest of the class (yet with incredible amount of standard features), that does not equal giveaways. Hyundai is getting a profit (not at Camcord level but still quite healthy) for each Sonata. Borrowing some unforseen events, Hyundai is well within reach of its annual goal of Sonata sales this year (should not have any problem), and that's without counting units on fleet.

goodegg

The misconception is that because the Sonata is well below the other three that something has to be done about it

It takes time for the public to recognize changes going on, and Toyota's pricing of their new Camry shows they're ceding the lower end of this sector. Honda probably will too. People seem to have more money nowadays tho. Hyundai's not going after. Sonata has minimal appeal to folks with money.

ontop

Hyundai never gave away its Sonata

Of course they're giving them away. They're obviously buying market share, because at the same price as a CamCord, not many people would buy them.

Hyundai's 'profit' is what they say it is, not what it really is. Who knows what financial calculation gymnastics one would have to go through to unravel Hyundai financials?

bobad

I bet we would be SHOCKED to know how much profit there is on Camry and Accord. I'm sure profits are very high on Sonata, but OBSCENE on C&A. I bet they could sell at Sonata prices and still make a viable profit. They do not ask $5-7K more because they must, they ask for it because thay CAN.

prosource1

I rent mid-size cars Friday-Monday every week and here are my observations of the last two rentals I have had:

Altima 2.5 : great low-end torque and very good power, nimble handling and very comfortable ride, great sound system, comfortable seats, roomy and just a good all-around drive. Lows: 16.5 mpg on 87 octane, very cheap interior components(arm rest feels like its going to fall off)

Sonata GLS: Very roomy, quiet, high-tactile and visual sensation (everything pleasing to eye and touch), adequate sound system, adequate power, tons of stuff for $17k, manumatic or automatic tranny option, attention to detail(seat belt connection base has cloth on the inside to prevent scratching of center armrest)Lows: cannot get comfortable in drivers seat for 6footer, doesn't feel like 234hp(Altima felt stronger last week), tranny seems to be sapping power, no way this gets 30mph on highway but more like 22. Still not there yet only because of drivetrain. This car is very close but considering its $17k price...WOW!

tiburonboi25

Earlier this month I need a rental car for 2 weeks, so I went to Enterprise. I had a choice of a galant or a 6, so I took the galant. The galant had only 2 miles on the car, when I got tired of it and wanted to try some else I decided to take it back after putting 943 miles on it in 1 week. So this time I got an Altima with a little over 1500 miles on it. OMG what a difference between the two cars. First thing I notice was how much smaller the altima seems inside but the specs say that the altima has more inside room dunno! Second is that is a big difference in power, the altima has much better get up. Other than the power the galant did better, ride, stereo, noise level, interior material and safety items (ABS and Side Airbags) were better on the galant. When driven back to back the altima felt cheap. I was really surprised, because I would have picked an altima over a galant any day until now. What do you think?

jrock65

Lexus and Infiniti vehicles are typically $5000 to $10,000 than their Mercedes and BMW counterparts, comparably equipped.

Does this mean that Lexus and Infiniti are losing money on their vehicles, or that they are merely buying market share? No...

kdhspyder

This was precisely my point. Most buyers are price buyers. Each of us slots ourselves into a price or payment segment.

Thus rather than comparing a 'midsized sedan segment' which actually covers the price range from about $15K to over $40K IMO it's more realistic to look at the buying public as dividing itself into 'price segments'.
$15 - $20K buyers
$20 - $25K buyers
$25 - $30K buyers
etc.

This is how we mostly shop anyway, just as you said.

m1miata

I think the Mitsubishi dealerships are getting harder and harder to find. At least here within my area of California. If they are not doing well in Cali. then so goes the nation. This is import haven. Yes, some of their car line is interesting. It is IMHO a game lost for the company in USA. Others can disagree. I am sure they, the company, would say they have a game plan. I for one, am not buying into it.

Not knocking the product or company at all. Just don't see them having the sales required to continue.

That is my opinion - your mileage may vary -Loren

kdhspyder

At these levels of price no one is losing any money.

m1miata

I saw an i4 Camry for around $20K. Seems fairly low priced to me. Actually, it may be lower, on the low end line, while they extended to pricing to include ever higher priced top line Camry cars. But they do start with lower prices now.
-Loren

kdhspyder

It takes time for the public to recognize changes going on, and Toyota's pricing of their new Camry shows they're ceding the lower end of this sector. Honda probably will too. People seem to have more money nowadays tho. Hyundai's not going after. Sonata has minimal appeal to folks with money.

At present I agree with this completely.

Now at some time down the road it may be more in HonYota's interest to push more sales of the CE and LE I4's in order to maintain volume. This normally occurs in the 3rd or 4th yrs of a cycle. Note that the Gen6 I4 LE didn't change at all from the Gen5. It just added all the airbags standard.

1487

I was really commenting on the build quality of cars in this class and nothing else. YOu failed to address the fact that build quality is great across the board in 2006, even on a lowly Malibu. I agree that the Accord's interior is better than the Malibu, but it should be considering it costs thousands more and all you get for that is a 5 speed auto, 8 way seat and a better interior. The Impala interior on the other hand is nice and has been well received in every review I have read so far. Perhaps you havent seen the interior of the 2006 model yet, but its definitely on par with the Accord. As far as Chevy getting their clocks cleaned, I dont know if that is accurate if the Impala and Malibu are amongst the best selling 5 or 10 sedans in the segment. Of course you would say all of that is due to rental fleets, but I know based on what I see that the Impala at least is very successful on the retail level. If you look at the difference between the '05 Impala and the '06 Impala than you know that Chevy is improving their interiors. Compare the the Cobalt to the Cavalier, the C6 to the C6, the '07 Tahoe to the '06, etc. Also check out the interior pics of the '07 Equinox when they become available, it looks much better.

1487

GM quieted the ecotec when the Cobalt came out for 2005 MY. Prior to that the Ion used to get criticized for lack of refinement. I have a sister in law with a 2005 model and I can tell you it is quiet and vibration free. The Ecotec is very up to date and has several iterations including the new 2L turbo for the Sky/Solstice cars. The normal ecotec makes 171hp in the Cobalt SS and 175 in the Ion which is more than you are going to find in any other compact cars.

ace35

I drove a 06 Chevy Cobalt SS, non supercharged with the 2.4L engine. I can confirm to you based on my expierence, that this engine is refined, but its trashy and very noisy when revved. Even the auto critics note how trashy the 2.4L is in the solstice in every review that i read.

But i give gm credit for there valid attempt, but the ecotec is not as smooth as the cam/cords, sonata, mazda6 4cyl's.

choe13

and this is something the buyers have to be proud of that their companies are ripping them off??

i'll ask all of you camcord owners if truly these cars are worth 3-5 k worth more than the current competitors or even how much a mid size car should be period,because truthfully they aint

with the amount of cost cutting available with better tech, why not give the consumers more value or decrease the prices ?? but you know waht camcord does every year? increase prices of their cars, and ppl actually fall for that

thegraduate

The normal ecotec makes 171hp in the Cobalt SS and 175 in the Ion which is more than you are going to find in any other compact cars. The normal ecotec makes 171hp in the Cobalt SS and 175 in the Ion which is more than you are going to find in any other compact cars.

Not as much as it might have been a few years ago, especially since you are talking about the performance "optional" engines. Cobalt and Ion have standard 140-145 hp.

Mazda 3s - 160 hp 2.3L
Dodge Caliber - 172 hp 2.4L
Corolla XR-S - 164 hp 1.8L

Competitive yes, but a lot more? I wouldn't say so. I will give kudos to GM for having a competitive engine without taking the easy road and just adding more displacement.

thegraduate

and this is something the buyers have to be proud of that their companies are ripping them off??

i'll ask all of you camcord owners if truly these cars are worth 3-5 k worth more than the current competitors or even how much a mid size car should be period,because truthfully they aint

with the amount of cost cutting available with better tech, why not give the consumers more value or decrease the prices ?? but you know waht camcord does every year? increase prices of their cars, and ppl actually fall for that

Whoa there, I think you are lumping a lot of people into the "stupid" category that ought not be there.

First of all, VALUE isn't always feature per dollar. If you place VALUE in having the most features for the least money, then the Sonata is the best VALUE for YOU.

It isn't the best VALUE for me, however. Peronsally, with $21k to spend, I could've had the V-6 Sonata over my EX I-4 Accord, but I put more VALUE in the fact that the interior doesn't feel like it hasn't been through cost-cutting measures, meaning it meets the same fit and finish standards of vehicles more than double the price. The Hyundai, to me, felt like what it was... a screaming bargain, but nothing special relative to anything else in the class.

I also knew I wanted the most fuel-efficient car that would fit my 6'4" frame, which is why I didn't bother shopping V-6s that compromised my other wants/needs.

Value is relative as well as subjective. You and I value different things, and there's nothing wrong with that, but it should be noted that I bought my Accord because it was the best value for ME. I got the best interior (to me) out of any other car costing the same, and some costing more, as well as the all-important moonroof and 6-disc changer that i wanted. All for the right price, with GREAT economy, and plenty of room. For ME, the Accord was the value leader.

ace35

I agree with thegraduate about the accords interior, the design and overall feel of the accord interior is downright sharp. Nice touches like electroluminsent gauges, soft touch materials, excellent fit/finish all come together nicely in the accord, giving it an upscale feel. So when im in the accord i would feel as if it cost more than the Sonata.

On the other hand when im in the Sonata the interior, while it wont win any style contest, its very functional, cohesive, and no nonsense. What makes the Sonata feel expensive to me is its equipment levels for the price. I would gladly pay what cam/cord owners pay, because by the time you outfit any vehicle with as much equipment as hyundai stuffs into the sonata, youll have a much higher price than even the cam/cords.

So luckily in todays competitive midsize market we have lots of viable choices, Because remember no car is one size fits all. So it just depends on what your looking for overall.

goodegg

6 months ago when I was buying a car, I tried my best to test drive all the cars in this comparo at least twice. Once I sat in the Impala (after sitting/driving the Accord, Sonata, Fusion, and 6) I didn't even want to drive it. The interior was all wrong. Seemed like this car was from 10 years ago. The Japanese can flat out ace an interior, and even the Sonata was better (except for the slide off driver's seat).

So as much as I wanted to give good ole Chevy a chance ( i had an S10 Ext Cab that was great) it just wasn't a feel that I wanted to own for the next few years.

I think a huge majority of buyers has the same opinion. I still pull for Chevy, but they should stick to trucks.

prosource1

The V6 Sonata 'doesn't feel like 234hp(Altima felt stronger last week), tranny seems to be sapping power...'

OOOPS! I just realized when I was filling up with gas that there was only one tail pipe coming out of the rear bumper and THIS WAS A 4-CYLINDER AND NOT A V6. I just figured it was a V6 and that is why I commented that it didn't feel as strong as the Altima. Cuz it is about 14 hp less. This being a I4 I have to say it is quite strong.

elroy5

i'll ask all of you camcord owners if truly these cars are worth 3-5 k worth more than the current competitors or even how much a mid size car should be period,because truthfully they aint

The Accord EX V6 is the best car you can get for under $30,000. The Sonata isn't even close.

Sure, my 03 V6 Accord cost $5,000 more than my 92 EX Accord did. But it's a lot more car too. The 92 Accord only had one airbag, no power seats, 4cyl engine, no leather, and it was a smaller car. The new Accords are worth more. Hyundai tells you their car is as good as the Accord and Camry, and you fall for that? Well, it aint, like you say.

thegraduate

I think if most people test drove a 4-cylinder sedan (of today's generation - most in the 160-175hp range) more than half wouldn't feel the need to even bother stepping up to a V-6 model. I know I didn't feel like I was missing out by opting for the 166 hp I-4 in the Accord.

thegraduate

The Accord EX V6 is the best car you can get for under $30,000. The Sonata isn't even close.

Good part of it is, you can get the EX V6 for around $24,000, not the $30k that many people think you have to pay to get into an Accord.

choe13

thats your choice and the accord has a fine interior i can even admit, but i'm in business and into the whole getting the best for the buck kind of thinking, all that ratio crap, maybe a good interior, honda emblem and some other things are worth 2-3 k more to you than thats fine.

Lets just cut the profit talks down, cuz we are consumers and need to worry about our end, not how great honda is profiting us. You know i hate to throw this onto this discussion but why does camcord have such ridiculous finance and lease rates if they profit so much anyways?? Its just not rite

thegraduate

I don't care what the profit margins are, just want the best car I can get for my money. If they had a V-6 Accord for $21,000, I may have still gone with the I-4 because of the more than adequate power and suberb mileage. I'm just doing a strict car-to-car comparison, and explaining my choices. And yes, the interior feels like more than $2,000 difference to me...I feel I got what I paid for, in that department. If I valued engine power and pure features over how well the package is built and how well the tactile functions of the car respond, I would have a Sonata V-6 in the garage at the moment. We share different values, and I'm glad we're ok with that. Neither of us is wrong.

Y'all can keep your profit/business talk, and in fact, might find more people to share your views with in the News and Views Discussion forum...

m1miata

And for a bargain i4 engine with HP and Torque, the Altima, with 175HP and 180# Torque, may be at a good close-out price right now. Hopefully the ones on the lot are not in the recall, or have been fixed the rear doesn't fall out. Anyway, for a few bucks more than a Cobalt SS, I bet you may find an Altima 2.5S on a close-out. Within a couple grand? Considering the resale, the price would be lower.

Yes, in compacts, a Cobalt, especially the base model, has a lot of torque for the money. Guess it is the most for cars under $13K, unless I am missing something. Once you get into the $16k to $22k range, I just don't see the value in those cars - but everyone sees it differently, and thus is life.

What about the Elantra for 2007? Will is still be classed as a compact, or is it now into the smaller mid-sized car class?
EPA is now classing it as a mid-size. And is the Sonata really a full sized car now?

joe97

"The Accord EX V6 is the best car you can get for under $30,000. The Sonata isn't even close."

I am not even sure which is the better sedan out there under 30K, just because they are all very competitive and each excel in respective areas. That said, for you to say "the Accord is the best car you can get for under 30K" is an overstatement - maybe for you, but defn. not true for everyone. The sentence should have been:

"The Accord EX V6 is the best car for me under $30,000."

"Sonata isn't even close" - maybe in your ignorant world.

shado4

COMPETITION IS GOOD!

Imagine what you'd have to pay for a Honda Accord if it was the only mid-size sedan on the market. $50K? $75K? $100K+?!?

Frankly I'm pleased at all the choices available in today's automotive world. IMO, it's very rare to find a car that does everything perfect at a price that makes everyone happy.

I think you guys should be thankful for the wide selection of mid-size sedans available to the new car shopper. Sure, it may make for a difficult decision, but in the end everyone wins with better products being produced by the car makers.

Now, who's ready for a group hug and a round of "Kumbaya"?

:P

booyahcramer

You're absolutely right that the Accord is the best car in this comparo, even with it's 5 year old design.

shado4

:confuse: You're absolutely right that the Accord is the best car in this comparo, even with it's 5 year old design.

I said no such thing nor made any such reference.

The Accord may be the best car in this comparo in your opinion (and I respect that), but for many other car buyers it is not. That's why COMPETITION IS GOOD!

choe13

HOW?!? please tell me that

It does have a fine interior, very good engine, reliability on its side

but is it the quietest ? (no the sonata is)~ is it the roomiest? the best value?? does it handle the best(no that goes to the mazda 6)

you get the picture?? If the best is the best u gotto be best in 10 out of 12 catergories and the accord is a nice overall appointed mid size car but it surely isnt the clear winner 10 out of 12 important midsize categories, in fact not even 6 out of 12.

IF you can prove me otherwise i will say it is the best under 30 k, otherwise please make sense

kdhspyder

Prolly not correct... the Camry is the best vehicle in this category now but your opinion is noted.

w9cw

leadfoot6 wrote: "People seem to have more money nowadays tho. Hyundai's not going after. Sonata has minimal appeal to folks with money."

I wouldn't necessary say this statement is true. I've driven most of the midsize cars discussed in this thread, including the Accord and Camry. The Accord has far too much road and wind noise from the passengers side door (in 4 samples) than I desire. The Camry was much quieter in both areas, but lacked in handling compared to the Accord. Hence, I began looking at the Sonata, and it was quieter than either the Accord or Camry.

Thus, I'm seriously considering a 2007 Sonata. I wouldn't necessarily say that "we're folks with money," but we do have a six figure plus income. Regardless what Hyundai's marketing targets, I will buy the Sonata, not on price, but overall quality and bang for the buck.

1997montez34

I have a 2003 Accord LX. I make a good living. Not rich but comfortable. I drive a '06 Sonata LX a few weeks ago. That car is a spot-on value, Drives very well, awesome warranty. Anyone who is looking for bang for their hard-earned buck needs to look at the Sonata,

goodegg

Income doesn't equate to wealth. I live in a wealthy area (altho I'm not) and nobody has a Sonata. Accords and Camrys are acceptable it seems. My $.02

elroy5

Prolly not correct... the Camry is the best vehicle in this category now but your opinion is noted.

The Camry model that would beat the Accord V6 is probably over $30,000.