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Subaru's fortunes sinking - can they turn it around?

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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    You don't like the one where they talk about the SIA plant?

    It was the first zero-waste plant in the USA.

    They even grow grass on the roof! :shades:
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    nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Well, I strenuously applaud Subaru for the greenness of the SIA plant, and I had no idea how much international acclaim it has received until I began reading about it in other places. If they had a 35 mpg car for sale, I would buy it just on the strength of their greenness alone!

    As for the TV ad, it just wasn't catchy. It was boringly scientific IMO. Too sensible, not enough product visible.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Speaking of green, you'll love this.

    We found out the PZEV Forester costs only $211 more than the normal model, but the best part is that is makes 175hp, rather than just 170hp for the bigger polluter.

    I think we're going to order one. PZEV for sure! :shades:
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    nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Where I live, the PZEV version will be the only choice I'm sure. But it IS a refreshing change to have the PZEV version make more power rather than less.

    Now how do we entice them to offer the Impreza (sharing the identical powertrain among the normally aspirated models as far as I can tell) with PZEV emissions? I would sure like to see that, as the current model has worse emissions than the average new car according to the sticker on the window.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

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    bristol2bristol2 Member Posts: 736
    I heard, I believe from someone on these forums, that the MY 2010 Outback will have a larger back seat and should be available in diesel.

    Can anyone confirm that?

    To me, that would certainly be an example of Subaru 'turning around their sinking fortunes'. At least they'd add me as a customer (now if that diesel could come with a manual transmission, they'd have another raving fan....) :)
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    jeffmcjeffmc Member Posts: 1,742
    I've heard the same things here and elsewhere. No "official" confirmation anywhere, as Subaru is remaining as tight-lipped as always. Legacy and Outback simply HAVE to grow, as the Forester & Impreza now have larger rear seats, so I think you can call that a virtual confirmation. :)

    In Europe, the new Subaru diesels are manual-transmission-only so far, and are available in Legacy and Outback. We could end up w/AT, MT, or CVT. At this point, there's nothing but rumors as to what will be paired up. One Subaru exec mentioned Forester being a good fit for diesel as well.
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I realize the title of this thread seems to imply doom and gloom, but I just read that FHI made a profit the last two years.

    The headline actually said profits were lower this year vs. last, which I'm sure someone will spin as a negative, but that means they have made a profit both this year and last.

    Not bad considering they heavily revised the Tribeca and came out with a new Impreza and Forester during that period.
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    "Subaru of America, Inc. today reported April sales of 16,771 total units -- a record for the month of April. Retail sales were up 22% over the same month in 2007, driven by strong consumer demand.

    Model 2008 April % v 2007
    Total Legacy 1,890 +32%

    Total Outback 4,137 +1%
    (incl. Legacy Wagon)

    Total Impreza 4,010 +16%

    Total Forester 5,339 +49%

    Total Tribeca 1,395 +29%

    Total 16,771"

    Mama-mia. I predicted the Forester would do well but this is amazing. It's up 49% and there wasn't even full availability for the month. Plus there are no incentives.

    No wonder I can't find the color and options I want.

    Actually, I was wrong. I thought the market being down would more than offset the gains from the new Forester. It has not.
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    dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,166
    Forester surely did well, but don't you think it may also be '08 clearance effect?

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Well, incentives didn't really go up towards the end there. In fact I think they remained flat from the months prior.

    Plus, I don't think so, because for instance I'm having a hard time even finding a 2009 LL Bean model to test. The dealer sold 4 of them immediately. They had one more but it had NAV, and I didn't want that option.

    They searched the entire mid-Atlantic and found only 2 cars in the colors we want (Silver or Blue), LL Bean model, no Navi. Neither dealer was willing to do a trade because they know they can sell them easily.

    I'm stuck. We are going to have to order one.

    They can't build the 09s fast enough. I'd say that's a pretty strong sign that it's a hit.
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    bristol2bristol2 Member Posts: 736
    I thought the market being down would more than offset the gains from the new Forester. It has not.

    I wonder if you can make a case for some Audi/ BMW x drivers coming to Subaru in times of economic downturn?
    It's probably a stretch but we have interesting times ahead adjuting to a slower economy and the impact of gas prices.
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Plus, sales are up 49% and that's without many turbo models, given the stop-sell order.
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    paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    No diesel for 2010 eg/outback as far as I know, but they will be A6 sized. 2011 would be the earliest MY for diesel as far as I know.

    -mike
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    nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Is there any word on how Subaru is doing YTD through April?

    I want to know where all these sales increases in Legacy sedans are coming from. I have never seen a Legacy sedan anywhere outside an auto show. The dealers here never have any in stock. :mad:

    Exception: one of the local dealers has a $35K Spec B. It has been there for like 6 months.

    Of all the sales results, I am most gratified to see Impreza up 16%. I am still hoping they will raise its fuel economy 10 or 20% mid-cycle (diesel? hybrid?), so that I can buy a new OBS before the current generation gets replaced.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

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    paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I want to know where all these sales increases in Legacy sedans are coming from. I have never seen a Legacy sedan anywhere outside an auto show. The dealers here never have any in stock.

    I've seen a lot of 08 Legacy Sedans here in the NY/NJ area the past 2 months. Been seeing them a lot more actually so it makes sense. Most of them are regular non-turbo models, but good to see em out there.

    -mike
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    kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    It's probably a stretch but we have interesting times ahead adjuting to a slower economy and the impact of gas prices

    Maybe on the XT. The 335 has better F/E than the XT. People have report 30+ on the highway with the 335. XT will never hit that, even with the engine off going downhill.
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    paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    335xi?

    Hmm, I have a customer with a 135i (no awd, no weight of the 3-series) and he gets 22mpg with it, highway best ever was 26mpg.

    -mike
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    You should compare it to the BMW X3, which doesn't do any better, despite being a lot slower.

    nippon - I haven't been keeping track of the 1st quarter, because all along I was waiting to see what the Forester intro would do for sales.
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    tifightertifighter Member Posts: 3,606
    I have a customer with a 135i (no awd, no weight of the 3-series) and he gets 22mpg with it, highway best ever was 26mpg.

    Sheesh; even my 4wd Pilot gets 22 highway, and its shaped like a milk crate. The US 1-series continues to disappoint me...

    23 Civic Type-R / 22 MDX Type-S / 21 Tesla Y LR / 03 Montero Ltd

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    paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Oh and he had to pay $41k for it too w/o Navigation!

    -mike
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    nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    That's just obscene!

    The 1-series is a truly worthless addition to the models available to us in the U.S.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

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    tifightertifighter Member Posts: 3,606
    Yeah, remember when the rumors started about the 1-er coming to the US a few years ago; how it would be the spiritual successor to the 2002 etc? Can't say I bought it then, but I was hoping for an A3 competitor (hatch, avail. 4cyl, etc) like they already have in Europe. Looks like we got neither. Too porky, too expensive, too big of engines and it sounds like too thirsty to top it off. Next please... :lemon:

    23 Civic Type-R / 22 MDX Type-S / 21 Tesla Y LR / 03 Montero Ltd

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    nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Nowadays Honda does the spiritual successors to the 2002, while BMW does overpriced, overpowered, overweight guzzlers for the folks with a lot of money to burn.

    Speaking of weight, it would be nice to see this new joint Toyota/Subaru project spur Subaru to further weight reductions across the line.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The 1 series occupied the 3 series' old spot.

    The 3 series price crept up to make room.
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    kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 237,422
    Exactly...

    The 1-series has been out for a few years in Europe.. Anyone that thought it would actually be the spiritual successor the old 2002 wasn't paying attention...

    Now.. if they had sent over the 4-door hatchback, at least we would have had a worthy addition to the model line-up.. As it it, it's just a re-hash of the E46 coupe and convertible.. Fun to drive, but nothing new...

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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The hatch is awkward looking, though.

    The coupe is dorky-cute, but at least it's cute.
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    kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 237,422
    Cute, says the Miata owner?!

    Dorky, awkward.... applies to the whole lineup..

    Cute? Don't see it... ;)

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    tifightertifighter Member Posts: 3,606
    The hatch is a lot more striking in person. Especially in black.

    23 Civic Type-R / 22 MDX Type-S / 21 Tesla Y LR / 03 Montero Ltd

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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Good one, you got me, my mouth was open. :D

    What I mean is that they seem to have shrunk the length to get it that small, so it looks like a cartoon of itself.

    The coupe pulls off being cute, indeed.
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    mayberryguymayberryguy Member Posts: 145
    Hmm, I have a customer with a 135i (no awd, no weight of the 3-series) and he gets 22mpg with it, highway best ever was 26mpg.

    You can't always drive it like you stole it and expect good gas mileage. BMW's are known to easily beat the EPA estimates on the highway. I have an '07 335i with manual and can easily get 30mpg on the highway if I set the cruise on 70. BMW's can take 10,000 miles or more before getting best mileage. Mine now has 16,000 and I wouldn't trade it for anything else on the road right now for the price.

    BTW, we have an '06 Tribeca and still love it, just wish they had the diesel here already.....oh well.
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    paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    He drives up to VT on the interstate at 75-80mph. I wouldn't exactly say that's driving it like he stole it. It did have about 6 or 7k miles so that may be a factor as well as it being an AT, not MT.

    -mike
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Well, may as well spill the beans.

    paisan is well connected enough to know we've already ordered a 2009 Forester. I was going to keep it a secret and then surprise the Crew when it arrived, but the cat's out of the bag!

    It probably won't be here until July, so I guess it would have been hard to keep the secret for that long anyway. :shades:
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    tifightertifighter Member Posts: 3,606
    Congrats!

    Surprised to hear it will take until July; nothing inbound that matches what you want? Has it yet to be built?

    23 Civic Type-R / 22 MDX Type-S / 21 Tesla Y LR / 03 Montero Ltd

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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I think if they find one en route they can intercept it, but we were pretty specific - we ordered a PZEV model for instance.

    Of course there are 8 or 10 states that get PZEV models so maybe it'll come sooner.

    Officially, it's 6 to 8 weeks.
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    varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    That's hardly shocking, Juice.

    With the caveat that I haven't driven one yet, I'd be picking the 2009 Forester over the RAV4 and CR-V were I in the market today.

    Now, THAT is probably shocking...
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    sellaturcicasellaturcica Member Posts: 145
    Anyone carping about mid 20s gas mileage on the highway has no idea what the 135i is about. That thing is a monster, in a straight line and in the curves. I'd buy one in a second if it was about 4K cheaper.
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Not to me.

    Now if hondabro showed up and said that, I'd be shocked.

    This is the wife's car, and the funny thing is I really didn't try to steer her like I have in the past.

    As reliable as our 2002 Legacy L has been, she just never got that excited about it. Maybe I should have made her spring for the H6 LL Bean Outback. It was $9 grand more at the time, though.

    I took her to the DC Auto Show and she sat inside all the usual suspects. The CR-V has a nice interior (best in class?) but she wasn't crazy about the styling or the visibility. RAV4 has the wrong-way door and poor visibility. Outlander also big blind spots (I drove a CVT 4 banger for the heck of it). To her the Rogue looked like an egg. We drove a Vue (too heavy).

    She liked the XL7, oddly enough, but we wanted something fuel efficient so that was ruled out.

    Escape isn't a new design, so I veto'd that. Edge too heavy/big. Journey also big, because we have a minivan.

    Basically the van is too big for her to drive daily, so she wanted something smaller and more fuel efficient.

    A big selling point was the tidy size and the great visibility. She felt that it would be the easiest compact SUV to park, and I'd have to agree.

    We have $1600 Subaru bucks, so that doesn't hurt, but her Legacy has a crack on the windshield and a dent in the passenger door plus a few dings, so we could have used them in the Subaru body shop.

    Instead we will get $1600 off the final price, plus we can accumulate another $500/year from this point on to get free service/accessories.
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    tifightertifighter Member Posts: 3,606
    That thing is a monster, in a straight line and in the curves.

    So is the 335i. And doesn't the 'monster coupe' idea better fit in with the positioning of the 3 series anyhow? It was called 1-series for a reason; to be the entry step into the BMW range. And every where else in the world, it is. Just not here, where we get a coupe with size big engine, and size bigger engine only. With prices to match. The 135 coupe (NOT convert.) Car and Driver just tested was $42K!!! Only $4k less than a 335. Jeez, where's the 0.5 series?

    I'd buy one in a second if it was about 4K cheaper.

    What, too expensive? Thanks for illustrating my point... ;)

    23 Civic Type-R / 22 MDX Type-S / 21 Tesla Y LR / 03 Montero Ltd

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    nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    the 6-month numbers are in, and for the year to date, Subaru is up 4.4% in a market that is down 10% overall. Pretty darn good, I would say. Very few companies can say they are up in this crappy market, in fact NO company is up more than Subaru except for Daimler, now that it has divorced Chrysler. :-)

    Of course, the dark lining to that news is that total YTD sales for Subaru are only 94,095, making it very unlikely that it will get near its 200K annual target this year.

    All of the Big 6 except Honda are down YTD, the domestics down in double digits.

    Seems like lowish fuel economy numbers brought on by standard AWD has not damped sales anywhere near as much as I thought it would. Has Subaru turned that proverbial corner? Seems like the evidence is pointing to 'yes'. :-)

    http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080701/ANA02/597291192/1200- - /emailblast02&refsect=emailblast02

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    No press release from Subaru yet, at least on their web site.

    The Forester really took off, in fact they still can't meet demand for the high-end models. Ask anyone shopping for a Limited or LL Bean right now.

    Part of the problem, ironically, is a lack of supply!
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    nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    I would love to see a sales breakdown by model, should Subaru ever deign to issue a press release....

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Just came out...

    http://www.subaru.com/common/news/article_details.jsp?cat=current&fileName=news2- 008.xml&date=20080701

    Forester is still on fire, up 41%.

    Legacy is up, but Outback is down. Interesting.

    Tribeca is also down. No doubt that's a gas mileage issue - nobody is buying big cars right now.

    Impreza down slightly, but last year was probably right when the new model came out, so it's no longer being compared to the old model.

    Funny thing is this is the first month that Impreza sales were down for the month, vs. the previous year. Not bad. They had about 12 months in a row of growth.
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    nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Too bad they didn't report YTD numbers. I bet those would look pretty good for Impreza and Forester.

    It is clear they made all the right changes with the new Forester.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Yep, the big question is can that overcome a dismal market that is taking a nose dive?

    Last year I said "no", but 08 is still beating 07 sales.
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    rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=22832658&postcount=1

    Also interesting to note that 5-door Imprezas are outselling the 4-door models. That's never happened before that I'm aware of.

    Bob
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    nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Very interesting, thanks!

    Impreza 5-door, up 59% YTD! Whoa!

    Impreza up 12% overall, Forester up 22%. Very impressive, Soob! :-)

    I also see that Forester is outselling Outback. Is this maybe the first time that has ever happened as well?

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

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    jeffmcjeffmc Member Posts: 1,742
    "I also see that Forester is outselling Outback. Is this maybe the first time that has ever happened as well?"

    I've looked at that info before... there have been occasional months when Forester has outsold Outback. I think this could end up being the first year that Forester outsold Outback for the year, though.

    Hopefully they can ride the Impreza and Forester wave 'til the launch of the '10 Legacy and Outback, and then generate another wave of sales from those.
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I agree with Jeff, only a few times in the past has the Forester outsold the Outback. It's never been that way routinely, though that might start now.

    Forester is up 22% for the year, but the new model has only been available for 3 months, so in reality it's up even more than that - 40% plus.

    New models should do well, but this is excellent, especially considering the overall market is tanking.
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    dtownfbdtownfb Member Posts: 2,918
    In a sales year like this, the sales numbers are not important. it's about profit and continuing to build your reputation. If they can get to 190k-195k units sold, I would consider that a huge win.
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Mere survival is a victory. You're right.
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