Used Vehicles Best Values

kyfdx

True...

'02 BMW 325i Sport

Comfortably under $20K..

parthenon

How is the reliability on these?

kyfdx

They aren't Hondas or Toyotas....

While reliability is decent, maintenance and repairs are not cheap. If the car is out of warranty (and an '02 will be), then you need a good independent BMW specialist to work on it..

You could possibly find an '03 325i Sport that has 6-8 months of warranty left for around $20K. (I sold my '03 last year for $22,600). If you can find an '03, it will have a 4yr/50K warranty, and included maintenance... So, if it had a July '03 sale date, and around 40K miles, you'd have 9 months of warranty and service included..

I'm a little biased towards BMWs and Hondas... but, I can't think of a Honda that I would really call a sport sedan...

qbrozen

but, I can't think of a Honda that I would really call a sport sedan...

that's my problem with this question, as well. But, to be honest, I wouldn't necessarily consider a 325 very sporty, either. ;b

kyfdx

Sport package, sticky summer tires, manual transmission, RWD... I think it is a sportier drive than just about any other sedan..

Of course, if you have to have horsepower to consider it sporty... different story...

qbrozen

Of course, if you have to have horsepower to consider it sporty

well of course I do! :b

Kirstie_H

Again, depending on your definition of "sporty," I'd recommend my vehicle - Infiniti G35 - in a manual shift. Used. (not the AWD version, though)

qbrozen

yup. that's still the best suggestion.

didn't we just go through this?? what board was that on?

kyfdx

For under $20K??

I'll be right over to pick it up.. I'll even buy you dinner at Favazza's....

Kirstie_H

Don't remember, but yup, we did talk about that one here or elsewhere. Perhaps I feel the need to re-affirm how much I love my car.

And kyfdx, that's about what I paid for mine... in automatic. So, plan on me having the tiramisu for dessert

rprossil

But where do you put all the stuff that you need to bring along with kids? Current sedans just don't have the cargo area like the old ones our parents had in the '70s and '80s.

plekto

Um... That's why I recommended a BIG SEDAN. If you can't fit their stuff in the trunk of a Buick or Towncar, you might as well buy a Suburban.

parthenon

What about the WRX makes you nervous? Engine, suspension? Generally I thought Subies were pretty well-made...

qbrozen

i think the host is referring to the fact that such a car has a tendency to be abused more than other vehicles.

kyfdx

Exactly... I know how I would drive it... :surprise:

Oh yeah.... not the host in this discussion...

british_rover

A legacy GT with the Turbo motor might be just the ticket then. Less chance of being abused then the WRX and just as quick.

qbrozen

I don't think you are getting one of those for $20k just yet .... are you?

british_rover

Our Subbie store has a 2005 Legacy GT limited with 12,000 miles and an automatic for 22,995. If that was a manual with 10,000 more miles it would be well under 20,000 dollars. You could probably even do 20,000 OTD.

qbrozen

Interesting ... and a limited, too. hmmmm...

british_rover

Even more interesting that I know they would sell that car for 21,500 plus tax and tags because it is an old unit and they need to move it.

lilengineerboy

So here are some semi-flexible constraints:

< $12,000

< 60k miles

< 5 years old

= manual transmission

>= 4 seat belts

All things being equal I would like at least 4 doors.
This isn't the primary family mover, needs to be entertaining enough to keep me from joining the CCB club. Handling is more important than ride quality.

plekto

Get a Saab 9-5. These are the last of the true Swedish built/non-GM-ized Saabs, and can be had for this price.

The Volvo S40 is the only one with stickshift, and it's just not as good.

Other than that, a Wrangler.

Manual transmission cars are hard to come by in the last five years.

EDIT - The local dealers are asking $13K or so, but that has tons of wiggle-room, naturally. I've seen a 2002 9-5 going for as low as 9K recently.

qbrozen

Protege5
mazda6
altima

I'm wondering if you couldn't get an '02 Lincoln LSv6 stick for that money. I would think its possible, especially considering what I got for trade-in on my '03 V8.

lilengineerboy

The Mazda6 is high on the list. It felt like a cousin to my old Contour which I really liked. I think the Licoln LS stick is neat but I am leery of having a rwd car in a place with snow.
The Protege5/Vibe/Impreza posse are going to be checked out this weekend. I will also check the Mazda6 and a Jetta 1.8t.
I think my baseline is going to be a $12,000 Honda Civic and all the other cars will be compared against it for fun/cost/reliability/condition trade offs.
If I really don't see anything I like, old faithful will get tires and an exhaust system and we will run her another year.

qbrozen

based on everything i read around here, I don't trust VW reliability enough to actually buy one outright.

I think you'll find the P5 to be the most fun of all of these. Unless you can find a v6 mazda6 in your range. The civic is more refined, but just doesn't have the sharp feel of the P5. The base impreza doesn't thrill me. I never drove a vibe/matrix.

kyfdx

I'll second the '02-'03 P5, and also add the Protege ES.. That is the top trim sedan model and has 16" BBS alloys.. and usually comes with sunroof/ABS package..

Bonus: Usually sells a grand or two under the P5, though its harder to find..

plekto

VWs are reliable - you just have to stay with the base model 4 or the VR6. Turbos are their problem - and honestly, only Saab seems to make decent turbos anymore.

lilengineerboy

So I went and checked out a VR6 Jetta, 2002 GLS VR6, pretty much everything but leather, ~50k, they wanted $16k but I think they have a little room. It felt about the same as I remember the 1.8t feeling. I am a little leery of an out of warranty VW that I don't know intimately.
They also had a 2002 325xi with 54k for $19.9 but it sounded like they had a lot of wiggle room (but still way above my limit). It was sitting on Michelin Pilot A/S which isn't a cheap tire.
I think we are going to hit the Honda dealer next so we can stay out of football game traffic.

corvette

The 1.8T has crazy turbo lag. The new 2.0T unit is a gem to drive, but I still don't trust VW/Audi reliability or their dealer network. Asking price seems high on the VW, but maybe that's because I don't like them.

Kirstie_H

Just my opinion, but DON'T do the '02 VR6. I had that vehicle a couple of model years earlier, and although it was an absolute joy to drive, there were so many freakish electrical issues... like, turn off the car, remove the keys, radio & lights stay on... no way to turn off. It was almost demon-possessed, and out of warranty? No thanks.

lilengineerboy

So went out again today...
Test drove a 2003 Civic LX 5spd sedan. 50k miles, $11k. No dings but kind of scratched up, drivers seat wobbled, had new very inexpensive tires on it. I didn't like it. The speedo goes 20 40 60 etc with no good markings in between so 45, 55, etc are in no-mans land. Typical Honda transmission (good thing). They had a 2005 LX/5spd with 20k miles for $15k also. No ABS.

Test drove a 2003 Passat GLS 1.8t 5spd. 64k miles, $14.3k. Its over my mileage limit, I would be the 3rd owner. Cosmetically the car looked great and had a great ride. The seats adjust 27 different ways so it took a while to get comfy. Heated front seats, moonsoon sound, sunroof. Big back seat. ASR/ABS/SIR Supposedly its certified and has VW warranty.

Test drove a 2003 Jetta GLS 1.8t 5spd. 49k miles, $14.5k. It felt very powerful. It had huge, directional tires (I think they were the +0 fitment for the 17" wheels). ASR/ABS/SIR. Heated front seats, moonsoon sound, sunroof. I don't know about warranty, the guy who knows that stuff wasn't around.

Test drove a 2005 Subaru WRX 5spd. 46k miles, $22k (bahahahahahaha) It was the base model WRX with 6cd changer stereo, climate control, and aftermarket kinda cheesy feeling leather seats. No wing, no sunroof, no heated seats. It felt very, very powerful.

The BMW last weekend I know realize was a SCREAMING deal and its gone Oh well.

plekto

Test drive a RX-8, a 2002-3 Saab 9-5 with the V6 turbo engine(the way to tell 100% Swedish built is whether the headlights are glass or plastic. GM bought them out and instantly changed to plastic), and couple of year old Mercedes C230K - the 2 door coupe with the supercharged 4 engine.

All three are fantastic used cars if you want something a bit different and sporty. All three also can be had with a manual tansmission, which turns their smaller engines into little ferocious monsters due to the tighter gearing and better responsiveness.

Or you can do what I'm likely going to do. Get a big Benz. A nice 6-8 year old S class. The older square non-plasticky tanks. I saw a lovely S420 for $10K the other day and almost jumped on it.

lilengineerboy

Both RX8s I know are on their 2nd engines. A couple of people have mentioned the Saab, I am on the look out for it. I feel out of personal bias that I am too young to drive a Benz, I always looked at it like the Toyota of German cars, but I will add a supercharged 4 cylinder manual to my search.
The more I look though, the more I feel like dumping the $700 into the car I have now.

plekto

The RX-8 isn't mant to be flogged. It's like a Ninja 500. Takes some time to warm up, has to be revved a bit when you stop it, revs very quickly, and of course, burns some oil as part of thenormal operation. Also, you have to check the oil every few days. Just like a motorcycle. OTOH, if you do this, it's fantastic. If you neglect it, you need a new engine in a few years. It's not an appliance/Honda.
(of course I loathe appliance rides - life's too short to drive oatmeal)

But the Swedish built Saabs are very good. A bit quirky inside, but I like it. Drive excellently. Very quick and handle like the older Volvos did. Tight and unmistakeably European. $10-$14K all over the place.

As for the C230K, It's the *only* newer Mercedes model that I recommend. Get one with manual and NO options other than maybe leather and that beautiful panoramic sunroof. Stripped of all of the fancy and unreliable electronic do-dads, the car is a fantastic piece of engineering. IIRC, it was 24K new, so that gives you a good idea how inexpensive they can be used.

http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?car_id=211819243

Here's a good example. Small, RWD, supercharged 4 engine, stickshift. Way better than a Civic/Mazda3/etc. It's like... Like a Celica, except RWD.

explorerx4

you are actually RECOMMENDING a saab v-6 turbo?

plekto

The turbos in teh Saabs aren't unrelaible, or at least weren't until GM bean-counters started to get involved.

So get the V6 model instead if that worries you. Still a very nice car. European ride and experience at GM depreciation.

british_rover

I thought all automakers had to go to Plastic instead of Glass headlight lenses for safety reasons?

plekto

It's amazing what they tell you.

They can make glass into almost any shape these days, but it requires skill and considerable cost over a piece of plastic. The ~$20 difference is money they gladly squeeze out of he design. The 2002 Saab 9-5 has glass. The next year, it's plastic. The 2001(?) Volvo S40 has glass and the next year, Ford it changed to identical shaped plastic. They also got rid of the aluminum trim on the doors(area between the two windows/doors) and repaced it with same color painted plastic.

New cars don't impress me much anymore. Feels like it's made out of Legos. Plastic everywhere and deforms at the slightest impact.

lilengineerboy

They are designed to deform at the slightest impact, and one of the reasons the lenses went from glass to plastic is it was too hard to get glass to meet the requirements of deforming on impact. These are influenced by new regulations to prevent fatalities/injuries in vehicle vs pedestrian collisions.
Amazingly, if one doesn't hit anything, the car doesn't crumple. If this is a real big problem for someone, they shouldn't be driving
The other reason is consumers complain when they need to replace a glass headlight after tailgating a gravel truck (but they don't complain when their plastic lenses are too yellowed to let any light pass though and they can't see...) :confuse:

british_rover

I am almost positive that for Euro spec cars they had to go to plastic lenses to meet pedestrian crash test standards.

If I get hit by a car I would much rather be hit with a plastic headlight then a glass one.

plekto

Trust me - it won't make a bit of differnece

british_rover

At low speed it will. You have to remember how different European cities are. There are many more chances to have low speed encounters with pedestrians.

flc2006

The best used cars for price are korean car that are about 3 years old

if you are looking for reliability stay with honda or toyota.

lilengineerboy

If my lone criteria was dollars spent I think your suggestion would be great. I am looking for something more exciting than a box of rocks which is why I am looking at more entertaining used vehicles.

plekto

Best used prices, maybe, but for 5-10% more, you can get a GM or Ford.

http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?car_id=206628423
Two years old and less than all but the cheapest subcompacts cost. I suspect that the drivetrain is a bit more robust than a Rio.

lilengineerboy

But still boring as a box of rocks. I would probably be more likely to consider a Focus ZTS or ST with a 5spd. I never thought I would miss my Contour like this.

erics6

Exploding gas tanks :-()

plekto

Morons who fill the tank all the way up to the top of the filler pipe.

:P

Or just get a 2 year old Grand Prix for $12K.

lilengineerboy

I decided to get a few more miles out of my current ride. I took the money and put it in the market, hopefully it won't tank now. Maybe if it does really well, I won't have to be so budget conscious

voxboy

Is it foolish to knowingly buy a car with frame and/or undercarriage damage?