Used Vehicles Best Values

oldfarmer50

My son just purchased a 1988 Plymouth Reliant for $350. Outside of the wear and tear you would expect on a 20 year old car with 133K miles it seems in pretty good shape. No leaks, has some valve noise but runs OK and doesn't smoke. My question is how much should he spend to keep this old boy running. I can't imagine that repair will not be an issue sooner or later.

joel0622

Depending on the ISD the Focus still has a portion of the 100K mile Powertrain Warranty left.

cccompson

You can (and should) do better for your $8000. Example: I (well, actually my son) recently turned down a fairly nice full option 90K 2002 Infiniti G20 (a pretty nice economy car) for $7000.

bdc2020

Get the Focus. Good cars overall.

plekto

The best used values are cars that are the worst ones to buy new - so don't touch anything that's an import(few exceptions to this) or seen as a "good value".

- Mileage is moot, really, unless it has tons of it.
- Buy private party and only from nice yuppie/upper middle class neighborhoods. If the person has a clean life and house and has their life together, it's a good bet that they took better car of their cars than a guy who never cut his grass and has a sty for a living room.(plus you get receipts and history with the private party, a huge plus)
- You want something that is a good car mechanically but has dreadful resale value. Ie - a good example of this a few years back was the Dodge Stratus. ONE engine was bulletproof - the V6. The other engine was so bad it takned the entire line's resale to nearly nothing.
- You want a upper-end car. The fact is that a Buick LeSabre is a better built car than a Corolla ever was.

This means, essentially, a boring, stodgy family sedan. Like a Buick LeSabre or a Grand Prix or a Grand Marquis(even if they are privately owned, they get hit by the taxi/police/etc abuse)

You can get a five year old Buick for under $8000 without hardly trying. Traction control, ABS, all the goodies, and gets 28-30mpg highway in real driving.

****
Another option is to take the $8000 or so and consider buying or leasing one of these three cars:
1 - In a month, you will be able to get a brand new Grand Marquis LS - a base model, but still a very fine car, for about $16-17K new after rebates. It depreciates okay(this specific model, bought at the end of the year is already essentially a year or two depreciated, so you take no "hit" for buying it model a year old), but it'll last a decade, easily. Yes, it's big, but it's quite possibly the second best new car deal out there. Most banks will loan a lot more on a new car than a used one, and this is a no-brainer if you can live with the size.

2 - Mazda is offering a $169 a month lease on their Impreza. If you drive less than 10K a year, this might be good for you. This is by far the most agressive lease on the market and it's frankly, a pretty nice car. A cheap enough lease - optimally $150 or less a month, can make a new car also a workable option over sometihng used. But it has to be REALLY cheap - like 0 down and $150 a month do do so in most cases.

3 - Buy a Mini. Suck it up. This is another method - buy something new or used that has no depreciation or maybe $1000 a year. Buy it for $18K new and sell it five years later for $13K. Used, this would be buying a classic car for $6K(needing some minor repairs of course - haggle hard) and putting 1-2K into it. Sell it several years later for 6-8K. Maybe it even went up in value. Laugh at the idiots who deal with massive depreciation in either case.

steine13

You're messing me up now...
2 - Mazda is offering a $169 a month lease on their Impreza. If you drive less than 10K a year, this might be good for you.

That's Subaru or Mazda on their "3" ?????

I'd go for that with minimal money down.... 10k a year is enough for me, with a few thousand left over for the missus.

If you point me in the right direction on that, I'd appreciate it.

I've never leased, but I'll try anything once, and twice if I like it ;->

-Mathias

EDIT

SPECIAL LEASE OFFER* ON 07 IMPREZA 2.5i SEDAN (manual transmission 7JA)
Now through September 4, 2007 - $169 per month for 42 months with $1,594 due at lease signing. $0 security deposit. Tax, title and registration fees extra.

Or $209 "sign and drive", which I assume comes out to the same thing. Still a good offer, but not as hot as it sounds at first.

Plus, it takes you half a year past the warranty period, that's uncomfortable.

jlawrence01

You can get a five year old Buick for under $8000 without hardly trying. Traction control, ABS, all the goodies, and gets 28-30mpg highway in real driving.

Maybe a Buick Century, maybe with 60+k miles and maybe 28 mpg if most or all your driving is on highways.

At least that has been my emperience shopping them earlier this year.

The Crown Vic/Marquis is not a bad idea id you can live with an 18-20 mpg overall.

oldfarmer50

"...the Dodge Stratus. ONE engine was bulletproof- the V-6..."

That engine was made by Mitsubishi. Why not just buy a Galant and get a Mitsu engine in every one?

lilengineerboy

"...the Dodge Stratus. ONE engine was bulletproof- the V-6..."

That engine was made by Mitsubishi. Why not just buy a Galant and get a Mitsu engine in every one?

The 2.7l sludge-o-matic? I sure as heck wouldn't take that bet. The Mitsubishi 3l is okay but the valve seals go and they turn into a diesel, and ours went through a HG, but I don't know if that was a widespread problem.

steine13

I hate all these alliances, it's so hard to keep track of.

If the 2.7 Mitsu is the same engine you'll find in early-to-mid-decade Intrepids, forget it. Lots of those fail prematurely.

The 3.5l in those is OK, I think.

-Mathias

plekto

Like I said, they made several engines, but only ONE of the V6s was good - the rest tanked the entire line's values used.

As for the $8000 Buick...
http://losangeles.craigslist.org/wst/car/395168192.html
Great car, actually. $7000 easily if you haggle.

I've seen 2002 LeSabres going for $6000! $8000 on a used Buick with the 3800 engine(a MUST-avoid every other engine like the plague) is a snap.

Cars Direct 2007 Grand Marquis LS:
Net Cost: $17,879
That's including delivery($825). And the 2008s aren't out yet. Expect even sillier pricing in a month.

They're both very nice cars for getting around.

oldfarmer50

"...The 2.7 sludge-o-matic?...The Mitsubishi 3L is OK..."

The engine I was referring to was the Mitsu 2.5L V-6 which was in the Stratus from 95-2000. The 3L Mitsu engine was only in the 2-door Stratus from 2001-2006. That car was a re-baged Eclipse.

The 2.7L was a Chrysler engine. I've read that it had sludge problems. I had one in a 2000 Concorde that had no problems for 71K miles until my son drove it off a cliff. :sick:

asafonov

Like I said, they made several engines, but only ONE of the V6s was good - the rest tanked the entire line's values used.

The only V6 available on the Stratus sedan was the 2.7 liter V6 one. The other engines were the 4-cylinders from the Neon.

plekto

http://consumerguideauto.howstuffworks.com/1995-to-2000-dodge-stratus-4.htm

It lists four engines.

http://consumerguideauto.howstuffworks.com/2001-to-2006-dodge-stratus-4.htm
The newer one also had four engines.

In each case, only the Mitsubishi 6s were acceptable.(2.5 and the 3.0) - the others destroyed the resale value. But that's good, since with the right engine, it's a fantastic little commuter-box.

joel0622

I was able to get my hands on a nice little car Saturday. A 2002 Ford (duh) ZX2 with the Hot package. Roof, CD Auto, etc all the bells and whistles except leather. Tires have about 10K on them. Car has 94K miles on it and the standard factory installed shutter when sitting at an idle with the AC on.

Clean as a pin. It was a one owner bought new here and serviced every 3K in the service department. $3100 + the tax + what ever the recon bill come out to.

This should make a better car for my daughter then the last one I bought her.

steine13

Ugh.. you had me until you got to the "auto" part.

Isn't that the final version of the ole Escort? That wasn't a bad car at all, and for '02, probably less trouble-prone than the Focus, which only got ironed out a little later.

Sounds good!
-Mathias

joel0622

Ya it was the sporty package they came out with for a few years after we discontinued the probe.

lilengineerboy

I was able to get my hands on a nice little car Saturday. A 2002 Ford (duh) ZX2 with the Hot package. Roof, CD Auto, etc all the bells and whistles except leather. Tires have about 10K on them. Car has 94K miles on it and the standard factory installed shutter when sitting at an idle with the AC on.

Clean as a pin. It was a one owner bought new here and serviced every 3K in the service department. $3100 + the tax + what ever the recon bill come out to.

This should make a better car for my daughter then the last one I bought her.

That sounds like a great 1st (or 2nd) ride. We all started on Escorts or derivatives. Easy to drive, cheap to maintain, cheap to insure.

joel0622

That sounds like a great 1st (or 2nd) ride. We all started on Escorts or derivatives. Easy to drive, cheap to maintain, cheap to insure.

1st and a 1/2 I turned the first car before she ever really got a chance to drive it.

british_rover

I always liked those ZX2s not bad looking and pretty decent drivers with a 5 speed.

guss

and the standard factory installed shutter when sitting at an idle with the AC on.

Please explain what this option is. I assume it is louvers of some kind.

Must be nice to have access to the service records.

joel0622

The 4cy in that car has a problem with the motor mounts. At about 80K you start getting a vibration when you are at an idle with the car in gear and the AC on. Once you apply the gas and there is some torque on the engine it stops. Not a huge deal for a new driver.

Must be nice to have access to the service records.

Ya, it is. Its also nice knowing the folks that bought it and knowing how well they care for all there stuff. We have sold them and there family every thing for years.

british_rover

Almost every little 4 cylinder does that with the AC on though. They just don't make enough torque at idle to turn the AC compressor without a little extra funky vibrations.

rickaltman

The last time I used Edmunds, I knew what car I wanted to buy, and the service was invaluable. This time, I want to shop for a used car, but I'm not married to a particular make or model. I want a high-MPG smallish car for mostly in-town driving. I want to poll the collective wisdom for recommendations on make, model, and year for a purchase in the $12K to $15K range.


Rick A.
Pleasanton CA

euphonium

2005 V6 Mustang Convertible. (or Hardtop)

Smallish = seats four comfortably.
Style = exactly like the 2008 model.
Economy = less than a Miata, but a lot safer.

qbrozen

mazda3

or, if you could stretch your budget a bit, you could get a Scion Tc, for instance, or any number of new subcompacts, such as Honda Fit, Nissan Versa, or Toyota Yaris. Just a small car with good mileage in the $12-$15k range leaves ALOT of cars on the list. More wants/needs could help narrow it down.

steine13

What qbrozen said.

And with the Fit and the Yaris, you've got outstanding resale value, too. I would pick the Fit hands down, though.

Good deals on used cars in the $12k range are typically those who cost $30 new and are now out of warranty. If that's a good deal depends often on how your luck is working for you...
-Mathias

Kirstie_H

Do I hear a Vibe/Matrix rec? I mean, if you want smallish, but not really little, you can get a lotta used Vibe for your money. Decent on gas, and it's Toyota without the badge.

steine13

"you can get a lotta used Vibe for your money."

Maybe you can, but I can't.
Ever since gas hit $3 a couple years back, the used market for small, decent cars has been nuts. I'd rather buy new.

A new '08 Vibe carries $2k in rebates, it's worth a look.

-Mathias

Kirstie_H

Yeah, they are pretty reasonable where I live. However, I agree that a new Vibe would probably be an even better bet for the money because it comes with the full warranty. I just think they're a better value gently used than some of the other gently used small cars on the market.

ANY decent used car that's great on gas is going to be less of a value these days than in previous years. The reason I responded with the used Vibe comment is because the only criteria given were 1) price range, 2) used and 3) high-MPG smallish. I wanted to meet all three

jlawrence01

Yeah, they are pretty reasonable where I live. However, I agree that a new Vibe would probably be an even better bet for the money

I tried to buy a used Vibe in the Chicago/Milwaukee markets back in January. However, the used car "discount" was pretty minimal to the extent that it was better to buy new.

It is a good choice if you need that size vehicle.

joel0622

I want a high-MPG smallish car for mostly in-town driving.

I want to poll the collective wisdom for recommendations on make, model, and year for a purchase in the $12K to $15K range.

Instead of stretching your budget on an import like some suggest you could come in around a couple thousand dollars under and buy a 2006/2005 Ford Focus with Leather and a Moon Roof for around $10K. Great mileage, dependable, and has a 100K mile Power Train warranty which can be upgraded to a Premium Care for around $500.

So you could get a low mileage well equipped car with bumper to bumper coverage for 100K miles and still be less then $12K.

asafonov

To quote Doug Flint, a practicing mechanic who writes on TheCarConnection.com:

"...I was doing a 30,000-mile check on a Ford Focus and, as is the custom, went to change the air filter, but I couldn't seem to get to it. I called Ford to learn what I was doing wrong. I didn't believe what I was told so I checked several sources. The air filter is a "permanent part," not serviceable separate from the housing, costing $387 and expected to last 150,000 miles. Have you ever looked at an air filter that has been in a car just 50,000 miles? It looks like an ad for black lung disease.

About ten years ago Ford announced that the fuel filters on their trucks were lifetime parts, not expected to be replaced until they all ground to a halt somewhere around 60,000 miles. So I've got it all wrong. America doesn't want advanced features, smooth reliable engines, and good transmissions. No, what America needs is a $387 air filter.

That coupled with news of the demise of the once number-one seller, the Taurus, should send Ford stock rocketing. Especially when all those Focus buyers go to replace their air filters. By the way, the air filter on the self-parking Lexus lists for $29. (What a bunch of dopes. How do they expect to make any money?)"

Thanks, but no thanks.

suydam

We bought a used Vibe (an '04) and have been really happy with it. I'm not so sure about Ford reliability -- don't know how the Focus has fared over time. Didn't they drop the wagon model? The nice thing about the Vibe is that it gets great gas mileage but has a ton of room for hauling stuff.

sc00bs

I have been searching for the exact same thing you are
After looking around I have settled for a Vibe. Why?

1. Reliable. Its a Toyota rebadged. Need I say more
2. It sits higher than other small cars. I noticed this immediately. I drive a small SUV right now that sits up high. I noticed in other small cars it felt as if I was sitting on the ground. A lot of the smaller cars required you to pull yourself out of the seat. I did not feel this way with the vibe.
3. Space. I LOVE the higher roof line. It also has fold flat seats so I can haul things that wouldn't fit in the height of a compact cars trunk.
4. The interior dash placement allows for a more roomy feel than other small cars I sat in. It also gives a larger view out the front window. The back window is a bit strange.
5. Gas mileage. While its not as good as some compacts, its adequate and better than bigger cars.
6. Reports are that it gets around great in snow (I live in Colorado). That is a big time plus for me.

Pricewise: You can get into one with relatively low miles for 11k. It may be older, not much options and without warranty but given its reliablity track record it shouldn't really matter all that much. New 07's around here, base models have tags in the windows for 15ish. So????

joel0622

Wow, and imagine I have been selling Fords for 15 years and been around since day 1 of the Focus and never heard one person complain about this.

british_rover

Sorry I don't buy it. I have replaced tons of air filters in Ford Foci over the years. I worked and managed a small independent repair shop from 1996 till 2005 and probably worked on thousands of Foci.

I still remember the part numbers of the air filter for many of those cars. Some were PZA-187 and some were PZA207. I think some of the later models were PZA-227 or maybe PZA-228.

What year is this supposed focus?

I will agree with the rest of this rant though. Ford has a tendency to develop a very good or sometimes great vehicle then they don't bother to update it.

mfletou1

Oh they updated it alright. You just have to live in Europe to actually buy it.

Makes zero sense to me. Honda's got a great new Civic, Toyota is coming out with a new Corolla, even Saturn is selling the new Astra, and Ford decides to make some cosmetic changes to a 7 year old design. Great call.

asafonov

Sorry I don't buy it. I have replaced tons of air filters in Ford Foci over the years. I worked and managed a small independent repair shop from 1996 till 2005 and probably worked on thousands of Foci.

What year is this supposed focus?


BR, thanks for weighing in with your informed opinion. I have no way of finding the model year of the Focus in question, or of verifying Mr. Flint's information in general - I tend(ed) to trust him because my mechanic of many years mentioned his (now defunct) column favorably.

Joel, I guess this addresses your point - one cannot believe everything he reads on the Internet. Who would think...

sgshnds

I'm looking at used Impalas (04-06) - how should I determine my negotiation range? I am figuring on sticker as the high end but, how do I determine the low end? Is wholesale essentially similar to the trade-in value (per KBB or similar)? If so, should I attempt to negotiate a price of only 1k - 1.5k over that wholesale/trade-in value? Or, is that price range unrealistic?

I can't get a handle on the low end (dealer price) to determine the mark-up and negotiation range for the vehicle.

Thanks in advance!

cccompson

Yes, trade-in value equals wholesale per the various price guides. Unfortunately, those books are not reflective of market reality in many cases and really should not be relied upon.

You're dealing with a wide range here - three model years and various trim levels and option packages.

My suggestion is that you research two things: actual prices bid on ebay (especially for auctions already ended) and asking prices on autotrader.com (do a national search - you'll have hundreds of ads to look at). You will learn in short order what an '05 LS with 45K miles, etc., is worth.

sgshnds

Thanks for the tips - I've pretty muched narrowed the vehicle down to the '05 LS with the 3.8 (if I can find one). Unfortunately, the ebay suggestion didn't really pan out (14 current vehicles).

Currently in my region, (e.g.) KBB shows $9500 for this vehicle @ 35k, basic LS trim package. The starting prices online in my area for the LS and basic trim packages for this vehicle are wildly divergent: anywhere from $15,995 and down. This is where I'm trying to get a target price solidified.

My instinct says to start with an offer at around $10,500 and staying within $500 - $1k for my target negotiation area - with my top end offer at $11,500. Does anyone think that this targeted price range is unrealistic? Any advice? Thanks!

kyfdx

Pretend the car is yours.. then go here, and post a description of it..

An expert will give you the auction value of the car... Start your offer about $500 above that... and you should be successful somewhere between that point and about $1200 higher...

regards,
kyfdx
visiting host

sgshnds

Thanks! Any suggestions as to how to get into dealer auctions - not neccessarily to buy but, get an idea as to how the prices are determined. My experience was as a kid watching a dealer auction purchasing state police cruisers. I couldn't believe the prices that were paid for, albeit new model vehicles, cars with 100k miles on them with thousands of engine hours. I'd like to get a fresher perspective. Thanks again! sg

jlawrence01

The quickest way is to obtain a dealer's license and to establish a line of credit. At that point, you will be welcomed into the dealer auctions.

Kirstie_H

The good news is that some of the people who provide value estimates in the linked discussion have access to auction values. Next best thing.

pss5

I am a 32 years old professional guy, and I'm looking for a new pre-owned car. I look around and do a few test drives on pre-owned bmw, vw passat, etc. I like the way those look, but driving them just didn't seem that comfortable.

So, I want a car that is fun to drive, but also is a little more plush than those. don't get me wrong, I think they're nice, and I understand having a little more stiffness from a "performance" standpoint, but I'm also just driving to work.

When I had the realization that I want something more cushy, first I felt old. Then I wondered if I was only going to be comfortable in a minivan with big captain's chairs. or a big caddy that is a grandpa or pimp car...

It's like the difference between a regular mattress and a pillow top. A regular mattress is fine, but once you sink down into the pillow top, it is a completely different experience.

so... what is your pick for a car that has some european attitude, and is not a grandma car, but still will make me feel great when I sit down?

(I'm a pretty normal sized guy, so no wierd needs other than cushion)

exb0

Try Acura TL. I think it’s a good compromise between sport and comfort.

cccompson

Your post takes me back 20 years to when I was 32 and bought a Cadillac Fleetwood. Damned good car...until it got stolen and stripped in Cleveland!

What's your price range for this proposed purchase?

plekto

The IS300 is by far the best option. It's lighter and more nimble than the ones that replaced it and it has better handling and power than the IS250. $20K or so should get you a mint condition couple of year old example.

- Drives like a BMW or Volvo sedan from the late 90s. Very "European" feel to it. the only thing Toyota ever made, IMO, that had that "3 series" feel it it. Perfect brakes, weight balance, steering, and so on.
- Inline 6 engine. Stupidly simple and straightforward. Lexus tried to beat BMW at their game and IMO, I think they did at least as well.
- Toyota mechanical and electrical quality. Audi and BMW will eat your left leg in costs. This thing is truly one of Toyota's most reliable. Ever.
- RWD. I-6 and RWD is the holy grail of sports sedans. As a result it turns and handles far better than a TL. The TL is a nice car and all, but it's hard to compete with an I-6 engine that's smoother than BMW's and RWD which gives precise steering and feedback since the power is taken off of the steering wheel.
- Can be had with manual. (insert choirs singing).
- If you want automatic(cringe), which I really don't recommend, since this car is well worth learning stick for, it has less gears than the new ones. This means half the cost to repair and quicker in the twisties since it spends almost no time hunting for gears. It also doesn't suffer from the problems with funny AI and shifting lag. Lastly, there are steering wheel mounted paddles to allow you do do crazy things with it if you REALLY want to chose a gear.

Lexus unfortunately is turning into GM. They had the perfect entry-level sports sedan and they got caught up in the HP craze. But they had a problem. More power meant a bigger engine, and they had to go to a V6. Then they put in an extra complex transmission. 200lbs later, it had lots the light on its feet feel, and the thing wasn't half as eager to rev at low rpms(an advantage of inline engines due to many fewer moving parts). Then they made the IS250 as a gimmie to keep viable in the entry-level segment. But instead of a stand-alone vehicle, it just falls flat like the Audi A4.

EDIT:
Of just get a 1998 Mercedes S420. The last of the handmade tanks. IT will literally outlast anything else. We'll be living on the moon in colonies and this thing will still be chugging along. Nothing's plusher or better built for a reasonable price($12-15K is common for a perfect condition one). Yes, maintainence is more than a Toyota, but it's well worth it. Nothing is like an S class.(the new ones, IMO, are plastic taxis and not the real deal)