Honda Civic Real World MPG

targettuning

They are producing them but for sale outside the USA for now. Why? It is due to EPA emissions standards and new regulations for diesels. I think VW is about to or already has introduced a new "clean" diesel in Europe and they are introducing it in the US soon. Anyhow, the short answer is: emission regulations the older engine may not have been able to pass but the new one will.

sebring95

Normally, I do a mix of highway and rural state routes. Very little city driving, but it's hilly where I drive locally. The first tank on the Civic was fairly conservative for me as I did an abnormal amount of two-lane state routes running 60mph, and I also was being easy on the go-pedal for the most part. I think the real difference between the two is going to be the Civic will require a conservative style of driving, where the TDI could be flogged and have very little effect on mpg. I believe the fact that the TDI didn't require as much revving to maintain speed will make a big difference in economy. But I also do a lot of long highway only trips and I would hope the Civic can pull at least the 40mpg it's rated on those trips.

kipk

targettuning,

Are you saying that Honda is already producing a diesel, or were you referring to VW production.

If you are talking Honda, what do you know about it?

Thanks,
Kip

shipo

I believe that Honda already produces Diesels for the European market. That said, they announced sometime in the last year or so that they'd developed a way to synthisize urea (ala MB BlueTec sans refillable urea canister) from exhaust and are going to be producing a 50 State legal clean Diesel for the Civic and/or the Accord. Target release date here in the U.S. is ~2009.

Best Regards,
Shipo

kipk

sebring95,

Hopefully it will do at least the 40. Some of the folks have reporting even higher, 42-44 mpg.

Some of the folks over on the "Accord" forums are reporting highway mileage in the high 30s with the 2.4L. So the Civic certainly should do a bit better.

Hondas just seem to respond well to a light steady foot, reasonable speed (60-65), and with the ATs just letting them do their seek/search thing.

Thanks,
Kip

kipk

"they'd developed a way to synthisize urea (ala MB BlueTec sans refillable urea cannister) from exhaust"

What is "urea" and how does it function? Is this something transparent to the driver. Or would it be necessary to "add" something by the driver. Layman terms please!

Kip

shipo

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BlueTec

In the Mercedes-Benz way of doing things, there is a urea canister that needs to be filled at every (scheduled) oil change. Assuming the Honda system works out, the need to fill the urea canister will be eliminated because the car will be manufacturing its own urea.

Best Regards,
Shipo

sebring95

Yeah, I do know a guy that claims he gets 44 on long highway trips at 65mph with his civic. 70mph is about as slow as I can go, but 40 should still be doable. I've had a lot of practice driving conservative with my Odyssey. If I really concentrate I can get at least somewhere between the EPA numbers....if I drive normal it will barely eek out the city number....on the highway. I'm sure the VCM on the Odyssey has a lot to do with the optimistic EPA numbers though.....

ruking1

New car break in and driving for longevity is a bit of a cross between voodoo, following procedures that may/may not work and exact/inexact science. Basically it pays to PUT statistics to work in one's favor. Part of it boils down to pay your money and take ones' chances.

My goal for the Civic are 4 timing belt/water pump changes @ 105,000 miles for a min of 420,000 miles.

Outside of the obvious, (timing belt and water pump weak link) my take is another weak point in this equation is the automatic transmission. Currently their is no statistical data verifying changing of auto transmission oil prematurely aids in statistically correlated longevity over oem recommended changes.

The engine is fairly robust, but wants needs to be driven within the bounds of its specific parameters, and preferrably in its so called "sweet spot". For me this translates to, driving the engine slightly aggressively (after full warm up) vs trying for so called "BEST" fuel mileage. The engine likes to rev or wind up (to release or utilize the meager torque (curve). To me this means "occasional" trips to the redline, but for the majority of cases, for longevity's sake trips to 3/4's (.75)of the redline. Also the more trips one does of app 45 mins to an hour (or more) the better. Highway miles are of course the easiest on wear.

I did the break in per Honda Civic oem owners/shop manual. This meant running 10,000 mile OCI's on the factory fill (conventional oil and supposed break in oil) and changing out the oil FILTER at 20,000 miles. I do run synthetic oil (Mobil One 0w20-5w20) @ 20,000 mile OCI's with 20k FILTER change. I have reported the fuel mileage in past posts for a purposeful 54 r/t mile daily commute.

So this commute while a major PITA does tend to be less consumptive of fuel and eventual wear than say stop and go, with many engine start ups and turn offs. It also meets the parameter of 45 min to 1.5 hours for less wear and tear.

kipk

"Currently their is no statistical data verifying changing of auto transmission oil prematurely aids in statistically correlated longevity over oem recommended changes".

Is there any statistical data concerning simply draining the transmission of the few quarts that will drain, vs. a full flush where most all the fluids are removed and replaced ?

Kip

shipo

Statistical data? Not sure. Empirical data? Yes, lots, and it ain't good.

The data suggests that slushbox tranny life appears to be very negatively affected when a "flush" is performed. Why? Well, the nature of the process means that unless the flushing machine was completely cleaned and primed with all new ATF of the proper kind each time a flush was performed (I'm thinking cost prohibitive here as many of the new synthetic ATFs required by manufacturers can run as high as $10.00 per quart), you'll be introducing ATF (and possibly contaminates) from previously flushed transmissions. It's kind of like an STD for automatic transmissions. No thanks.

Best Regards,
Shipo

ruking1

Part of the motivation for mentioning this now and in a previous post, is the nexus of the possibility for better (low hanging fruit) fuel mileage (smoother operation, longevity, etc.) due to conversion to synthetic (in this case auto transmission, but really as many as possible; ) fluids. My research on the topic indicates the Honda auto transmission is NOT engineered for nor does it take well to "other than Honda brand" (conventional) automatic transmission fluid. My research also tends to agree/back up what Shipo said: that indeed premature changing will increase the chances of being harmful.

The 2003 VW Jetta comes with all synthetic engine/drive line fluids. Since it came specified that way, I have NO compare/contrast situation with conventional fluids, nor would I want to take on that experiment.

I also converted the auto transmission fluid in a 6 speed manual Corvette Z06 (yes Corvette uses automatic transmission fluid in their 6 speed manual) to make it an all synthetic driveline. Just the switch to synthetic gave app .5 to 1 mpg better.

kipk

...both you guys agree, it is better to let the Honda dealership simply drain the 2-3 quarts that will drain, and leave the rest (most) of the used fluids in the torque converter and so forth, than to let the Honda dealership do the "transfusion" with Honda approved fluids?

It just "seems" than getting ALL the old fluids out and replacing with new fluids at the recommended 30K miles would be better for the tranny. Similar to draining all the oil and replacing it with new in the engine. :confuse:

Are there not filters and such in place to deal with contaminates?

Thanks,
Kip

shipo

There is a fair amount of empirical evidence that suggests that flushing an automatic transmission can cause more problems than it seeks to prevent. In the end, the best maintenance schedule to follow is the one in your Owner's Manual. Why? Because internet noise aside, the Honda engineers know best what is the proper care and feeding of your car. Relative to automatic transmission maintenance, my bet is that your Manual suggests a simple pan drop, filter replacement and top off of the ATF. If I had a Civic with an Automatic Transmission (not gonna happen unless I become physically disabled and can't drive a stick), that's exactly what I'd do.

Best Regards,
Shipo

forbesj

Just went on a long road trip (2700 miles). Averaged 33mpg in highway driving. Best tank was 34.5mpg. Not bad for a zippy 197hp car! I didn't baby it. Acceleration from a stop almost inevitably resulted in me hitting 8k RPM (mind you, only 2-5 times per tank of gas, and was for merging onto highway and zipping out of toll booths). Best tank was about 1/3 done cruising at 60mph and the rest closer to 75. Average tanks had either sustained cruising at over 75mph or some city traffic mixed in. AC was also used a moderate amount, intermittently at low settings.

Worst tank was about 30mpg on the road trip, was about half highway, and about half suburban roads and traffic.

Around town, I normally get 26mpg or so with short trips and very hard acceleration (I can't go a day without revving it up a couple times).

jlord50

On Yahoo Auto, the 2007 model's mpg is listed as 30/40,
while the 2008 model is listed as 25/36. Does
anyone know an explanation to this?

kipk

Old ratings "proceedures" were badly outdated.
New proceedures more reflect todays drivers, speeds, use of AC and so forth. Most new cars are showing a lower EPA number.

If you are getting 30/40 on the 07 model, you should get the same on an 08.

This webb site will explain.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/calculatorSelectYear.jsp

Kip

ts45

Here is how I determined the air filter needed changing.

1. Purchased new filter.
2. Removed filter from vehicle (2 minutes).
3. Held each filter up to a clear daylight sky.
4. Noted bright daylight through new filter, noted no daylight through dark, dirty filter.
5. Installed new filter(2 minutes).

Reviewed Honda Civic owners manual for info on filter change and found nothing, only cabin filter info.

Will be searching for inexpensive replacement filters sources and changing early and often.

ruking1

..."Here is how I determined the air filter needed changing.

1. Purchased new filter.
2. Removed filter from vehicle (2 minutes).
3. Held each filter up to a clear daylight sky.
4. Noted bright daylight through new filter, noted no daylight through dark, dirty filter.
5. Installed new filter(2 minutes). "...

I would probably follow the same procedure/s (shop manual guidance, 6 edge bolts with one center bolt), only for way different reasonings. (msg#1257)

..."Reviewed Honda Civic owners manual for info on filter change and found nothing, only cabin filter info."...

You may not be looking in all the right places!? While I have never looked at your particular Civic owners manual, it is in your shop manual! Here is one other source you might want to check out.

Honda.com

There is an (sub tree) owners web site.

The site might present more questions than definitive answers, but keep in mind everything is geared to having you do (unecessary) maintenance and/or repair early, often, and at higher cost; rather than on-time, necessary and under budget. Easy for example/s: the 30,000 mile maintenance, has 3 separate maintenance schedules. The 60,000 mile maintenance has 4 separate maintenance schedules.

The trick here seems to be able to benefit from the "economy" portion of these econo compacts and not give it back in terms of (artificially) higher maintenance costs. Since you mentioned the subject of air filters, the wholesale cost of a Honda brand air filter is 13.84.. @ 3 per gal, that is 4.61 gals@ 38-42 mpg: that can be 175-193 of commute miles.

In any case, all the best!

ruking1

Indeed the Service Manual for the 2001-2004 Honda Civic (pg 3-6, Maintenance Items, part G, (40% down the page)) recommends replacement of the automatic transmission fluid @ 120,000 miles or 6 years, then replace every 90,000 miles or 5 years, IAW ATF Replacement. (pg 14-153)

This is NOT the flush procedure, on page 14-167- ATF Cooler Flushing. This is typically done BEFORE RE INSTALLING the transmission. (much deeper REPAIR, not maintenance) The additional concern is a specific P/N flushing fluid is specified to presumably chemically scrub out all the "nooks and crannies" in a modern day automatic transmission. Unless a dilution analysis is done, rest assured a % of this fluid will still be present.

kipk

OK, Thanks ruking1!

The "flushing" recommended by the dealer is a $120 procedure, over and above the recommended 30K service.

Don't mind spending the money if it will extend the life of the tranny, but it does seems "Stupid" to spend the money when it may/could actually shorten the tranny life.

I often wonder if a lot of the stuff that is supposed to be done on these "Recommended" service programs is actually done at all. We pay our money for something that was supposed to be done "Back There" !

Example: Pay $120 for a "Flush", and the tranny is simply drained and topped off, hopefully with at least a new filter and Honda fluids. :confuse:

Thanks,
Kip

thegraduate

If you have your transmission fluid just "Changed" every 30k, you should never have too much of a problem from old fluid because that will keep enough fresh fluid in at all times, right?

ruking1

..."The "flushing" recommended by the dealer is a $120 procedure, over and above the recommended 30K service.

Don't mind spending the money if it will extend the life of the tranny, but it does seems "Stupid" to spend the money when it may/could actually shorten the tranny life."

..."If you have your transmission fluid just "Changed" every 30k, you should never have too much of a problem from old fluid because that will keep enough fresh fluid in at all times, right? "...

If I can take the liberty of intergrating or probably more likely "butcher" these two posting, this might illustrate my previous post.

As previously stated, a change is oem specified at 120,000 miles, i.e. @ $60.?? DIYers can pay the price of (2.9)3 qts of ATF and new crush washer for the bolt combo.

If a change is done at 30k, over 120k miles that is 4 changes at 60 (240 dollars) or an extra 180, @3 per gal= 60 gals of fuel @ 38-42 mpg, a range of 2280-2520 miles !!!??

Of course it would be easy to do the math for a 120. flush x 4, or an extra 420 dollars which would give 140 gals for between 5320-5880 miles!!!

thegraduate

Of course, I'm forgetting; won't the maintenance minder show a code when it needs changing?

ruking1

Well, yes and no. The maintenance minder on mine is a PITA. It is easy for me to ignore, but it triggers an almost panic response in my significant other despite multiple explanations. The SO has since learned to take out the owners manual to use the reset procedure. It is very easy to turn off/reset, but I am sure the oem's want to make it so only those with the so called "key/s" can turn it off or so called reset with very expensive readers. 1 code reading at a dealer is an easy 60 dollar bill and they have done nothing but hook up a code reader, and read it. This does not meet my criteria for economy.

cwhyte

I always fill my fuel tank until the pump clicks and I never top off. So far, the most fuel I've added is 12.2 Gallons. This was when the electronic fuel gage read completely empty and I still drove about 20 more miles. What's the most you have added to the tank in an 06-08 Civic, without topping off?

shipo

There is a guy over on another Civic board that claims to have driven something like 940 kilometers and then added 53 liters to his Gen 8 Civic. Hmmm, 940 km equals 582.8 miles and 53 liters equals 14.0 gallons. Ummm, yeah right, I'm thinking his claims are a bit over the top.

Best Regards,
Shipo

ruking1

I would agree with you! Repeatabliity is really the key. Even if what this person claims is true (overloading the fuel system) it requires too much risk, brain cells and lacks systematic repeatability; and for what purpose? Taking a chance on triggering a fuel system problem light with hundreds of dollars to diagnose and fix, while extending the range by 50 miles!!??? Running out of fuel in the tank can generate its own separate problems, and $$'s to fix!

41.571428 mpg is pretty do able. Longer term average/s is/are what I think most folks are really interested, or should I say, I am.

Here are some pretty generic things which can apply to Honda Civics. (as how this is a Cvici mpg thread, I do #'s 1,2,3.)

1. Fill in the mornings/nights which tends to be the coldest. Colder means denser gas. Fuel is metered/delivered to the station by a temperature adjusted mechanism. The station does not sell to consumers that way.

2. Fill on the SLOW flow setting rather than fast. Fast tends to introduce more AIR. The goal is to add fuel, not air. I interject repeatability by stopping at (slow flow) first click off. I also play the game of trying to keep gas drippings off the paint.

3. Do not fuel when the truck is topping off the stations tanks as this tends to disturb the scum in the tanks, which would tend to be off loaded to you!

4. Fuel tends to evaporate in the presence of air, so fuel when half full, for the least amount of closed fuel recirculating action. However, I personally have not studied whether or not fueling when half full results in better mpg than fueling when the low fuel lamp comes on. To me, the longer I can stay away from the fuel station and the less fueling frequency: the better.

pulgo

Every trip to and from the gas station is going to cost you. Every engine shut off and re start is going to cost a little.

Therefore, wait (if practical) until you are down to 1 quarter tank and then refill.

OTOH, some extreme tightwads prefer to drive around with only half a tankful of gas, due to the idea that not having to carry 30 or 40 more pounds of weight around will save you some gas.

drmbb

Not necessarily every trip. Every day to and from work, I drive by 8 or 10 stations, so I hardly have to add 100 extra feet of distance to my daily commute to fill up. I'm sure a lot of urban commuters do the same - fill up on their regular daily ride and not make a separate trip just for gas. And I never think about the stop and start thing - I know I waste far, far more fuel idling at stop lights and in traffic, so the engine startup is a truly trivial thing in my opinion (I always shut off in the car wash and places like that too, the few minutes of idle will use much more fuel then restarting).

The only other thing I would mention is that routinely running the tank right down (ie. warning light on or after the fact) before refilling, can have consequences for the life of your fuel pump. The submerged electric fuel pump is cooled by the bath of gasoline it sits in, so keeping it covered with fuel is preferable.

Generally, I tend to fill up when the guage is between 1/2 and 1/4 full, and then fill until the pump auto-shuts off (no top off, in other words).

I'm seeing an average of about 27-30 mpg for my weekly commutor driving, and my long hghway trips have been between 36 and 40 mpg (usually on cruise control, and rarely over 70mph).

ruking1

For a gee whiz!

The Cost of Gridlock

4.2 billion lost hours

2.9 billion gallons of wasted fuel

78.2 billion drained from the US economy

Source: US Dept of Transportation, Texas Transportation Institute

As an aside, the passenger vehicle fleet is 235.4 M vehicles. So we do not end up sounding like a Carl Sagan (rip) astronomy discussion, that math averages out to 12.32 gals. (per vehicle, per year).

As it applies to our Civics, I have looked high and low and have never seen/found the per hour consumption rate on an idling Civic with/without A/C, with/without automatic transmission. Given the range of mpg reported on this thread I am swagging it is higher than most of our collective (sotp)seat of the pants feelings.

cwhyte

After 2000 miles, my best tank was 34mpg and my worst was 31mpg, with an average of 32.9mpg. I mainly use this as a commuter car and I try to drive conservatively, keeping it around 65mph on the highway and not stomping on the gas too often. I'd estimate 70% highway miles and 30% around town miles. So far, I'm happy with the car and the mileage. I wonder if it will improve a little after the first oil change to synthetic. Oh, in case it matters, I use cheap 87 Octane gas.

shipo

"I wonder if it will improve a little after the first oil change to synthetic."

The many anecdotal reports to the contrary, there is no scientific evidence that suggests that synthetic oil of any given weight will improve fuel economy compared with conventional oil of the same weight.

Best Regards,
Shipo

cwhyte

Shipo, any opinions on the impact of break-in oil, which I understand to be different than regular conventional oil? Will the first oil change benefit by not having the break-in oil any more, regardless of whether or not I switch to synthetic?

ruking1

I was one who ran the oem fill aka "break in" oil as per oem recommendation, 10,000 miles (mine came sans OLM). I do not know if Honda has changed the owners' manual's intent since the 2004 models, (sold first in 2003) but they made an emphatic point of saying to run the oem fill the FULL oil change interval, which was 10,000 miles, normal. Another emphatic point: the MAJORITY of drivers fall into the NORMAL classification, (some would question this in a different context ) despite the tendency of folks to classify either them or themselves as (abby aka) SEVERE.

Since a lot can be happening during this 10,000 miles or during the oem fill, one would be hard pressed at times to find a real consistent mpg, tank to tank. So over the first 10,000 miles AVERAGE and second 10,000 miles AVERAGE, I noticed better mpg (avg) switching from 5w20 conventional aka "break in oil" to 0w20 Mobil One (synthetic) (posted much earlier on this thread). Further I changed the oil filter per oem recommendation @ every other oil change or @ 20,000 miles which is a 20,000 miles interval also. I have been using 0w20 Mobil One since app 10,000 miles and the odometer is pushing 52,000 miles.

Oil consumption over a 20,000 miles OCI is at MOST, slightly above mid point of the dipstick. Since the min and max is NOT a full quart (as most other cars are), I am swagging 8-12 oz of consumption per 20,000 miles. What this means on a practical basis is one does not NEED to add. I do, but indeed under those conditions, not necessary.

Fuel mileage is between 38-42 mpg for a daily plain jane commute, under (acknowledged by the transportation experts) some of the most congested conditions in the nation.

shipo

Personally I'm VERY inclined to listen to the engineers that developed the engines that I drive. With that in mind, if I do purchase a new Civic, I will most assuredly drive it with the factory oil until the OLM indicates only 15% oil life remains, after which I will change the oil in favor of 0W-20 Mobil 1.

Best Regards,
Shipo

kork13

My '07 Si is pushing 6000 miles, and currently displaying 20% oil life, so i'm looking at bringing it in soon for its first oil change. Would the dealership be willing to put in an oil that is not the Honda-recommended stuff? Like if I were to ask them to put in the 0w20 Mobil 1, would they do that for me?

ruking1

Yes, they do it all the time. The Honda branded oil, the last time I researched was vendored for the oem by ExxonMobil. But most dealers make their own deals with the barreled products, which are not necessarily an ExxonMobil product. 0w20 Mobil One is specified to work with Ford (higher standard)/Honda products.

abhinav_7333

i just bought a 08 civic lx automatic.i have 600 miles on it and its just giving me like 30mpg in city.is that gonna increase after a while,by how much?

abhinav_7333

shipo

As with everything else, it depends.

General statement: As cars break-in (and loosen up), their fuel economy improves. Depending upon the vehicle, getting peak mileage won't happen until the 20,000 mile mark or better in some cars, other cars start hitting their best mileage after only a couple of thousand miles. Which will yours be? Don't know.

Keep your foot out of it and stay on the interstate, and you can get over 40. Lean on it in the city and there are reports of these cars getting in the low twenties, high teens in extreme cases. It's all up to you. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

kipk

"...0w20 Mobil One is specified to work with Ford (higher standard)/Honda products"

Is that Synthetic or petroleum?

Kip

shipo

All Mobil 1 products are by definition synthetic. That said, so far at least, ALL 0W-20 oils are synthetic as well.

Best Regards,
Shipo

kipk

I believe some of the Mobile products are now from conventional oils. The "1" must be the clue to Synthetic. Do you agree?

Kip

shipo

Mobil has always made and sold conventional oils, and those oils have other (i.e. non-1) designations. Mobil 1 and Mobil 1 EP are synthetic oils.

Best Regards,
Shipo

drmbb

30mpg in straight city stop-n-go traffic is very good for a civic, going by posts here and at www.fueleconomy.gov

The car is EPA rated at 29mpg combined city/highway, so you are beating the official figures right there. Average user mileage reported at www.fueleconomy.gov for the 2007 civic auto is 31.1 mpg (no actual driver records yet for the 2008 civic).

I'd say your car is doing very well straight off (and you appear also to have good driving habits, in terms of getting good mileage), but I would not expect much better for pure city driving.

My 2007 EX Sedan auto seems to get about 26-27 mpg for my weekly pure-city driving (short commutes/trips, usually less then 10 miles, and lots of long lights), and my best highway mileage thus far was 41mpg. I have about 4400 miles on the odometer (no 1st oil change yet either).

sandman46

Getting this in my '06 LX with 10.5k on the odo. Very pleased with the mileage and the car. Have already done the 5k and 10k services. After the gratis 15k service, will stretch the oil change intervals until the oil minder gets down to 15% as the manual says. Figured since the 1st three 5k services were gratis...i paid for it somewhere I suspect, I'd use them.

The Sandman

sebring95

What are you folks finding to be the ideal tire pressure? I goofed big time on my first 1000 or so miles.....believing that the dealer actually had the correct tire pressure in mine when it was delivered. Now I know why the car felt sloppier than my pickup.....27psi all around. Anyway, I bumped them to 35psi all the way around but was curious what others have found to be ideal.

ruking1

I have had mine (Civic) at 35 psi for almost 52,000 miles, as much above that is way too energized for my SOTP! The thread wear is dead even across the width. Incidently this is the TP mentioned in my OEM owners manual as the high speed running pressure.

As a comparison on an H rated tire, I run 38F/36R on a 44 psi max sidewall tire. It is going on 100,000 miles on a oem tire, again tread wear is dead even across.

sandman46

Running 35 all around on my '06 Civic and seems to be a nice compromise in all types of South Florida weather. Tires have about 11k and they are wearing very evenly. Do have a 3 year alignment policy on both cars and had the alignment done in July on both cars. The tech said the Civic was off by a tiny bit, so all is well. Steering wheel is straight and the car tracks straight. Very happy!

The Sandman