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Looks like Honda's diesel marketing is attracting some attention. Will they use the same type of marketing when they introduce their diesels here?
Honda, which now sells three hybrid vehicles, says it has no plans to roll out any more, that it's not marching to Toyota Motor's strategy of a hybrid for every Toyota and Lexus
Unfortunately the article does not provide any time-line in terms of its introductions here. My dream car is a 2.2l diesel Honda Accord with a manual stick. If they do introduce such a vehicle then I will be greatly relieved that I just cancelled my order for a Camry hybrid.
A Honda 2.2l diesel is certainly a worthy successor to my wife's 83 MB300D.
How long is Honda going to keep me waiting
I mean the Insight and Accord are not exactly stellar in terms of sales success.
The Honda Civic hybrid is impressive BUT will Honda's hybrid success be defined by only one vehicle. Will it be worth Honda's while to invest in hybrid innovation when it will be only applied to one successful vehicle? What about the money involved in training and investing in hybrid services and support? Is it worth spending such vast sums for just one successful vehicle.
At least Toyota is applying their HSD technology to a wide range of autos. Such an approach will provide the economies of scale required for producing less costly hybrids in the future(remember I said future and not the present)
It is an interesting decision by Honda, considering their IMA hybrid system is more easily adapted to an existing car. Personally I think they are leaning towards low sulfur diesel allowing them to get better MPG in the 2007-2008 time frame, at a lower cost than hybrids, and with greater engine longevity. One of Honda's design goals is to make their cars last a long time. A diesel works really well for that goal.
My letter goes out Monday.
American Honda Motor Co., Inc.
Honda Automobile Customer Service
1919 Torrance Boulevard
Mail Stop: 500 - 2N - 7D
Torrance, CA 90501-2746
Ever since early last year when Honda announced there will be no hybrid SUVs, I knew that Honda was not as serious about hybrids as Toyota is right now. Maybe Honda is waiting until affordable lithium ion batteries can be used in hybrids. The killer for hybrid fuel efficiency is weight. Lithium batteries are advantageous since they are only 25 % of the weight of nickel metal hybrid batteries.
If you look at the smaller company Honda, it has an impressive array of products (not just vehicles). It LEADS in almost all the (for our discussion, vehicles) segments it chooses to enter, i.e., economy car segment leader, mini van, suv, truck, sports car, upscale line (Acura).
R&D wise, it has the gasser/hybrid, natural gas, hydrogen, electric etc. But because it is a smaller company, it can ill afford mistakes, and if and when they do happen, own up to it and either make it better or move on.
So when Honda did a concept to market iCTDi product that is about as commitment driven as one can get. It was headed by the Honda engineer who did the now famous VTEC. It takes cross hairs aim at the European diesel market, where Honda has not done particularly well. It's stated target is diesel sales being a huge percentage of its European sales.
http://world.honda.com/HDTV/news/2003-4030226_1a/
So I think for the next 5 to 25 years the diesel product will be a cornerstone of the Honda line whether or not it catches on in the USA. I for one hope it does.
-Last time I checked GM is still king of the Hill. I haven't read anywhere GM being knocked of it's #1 perch of nearly 80 years. :P
Rocky
P.S. The conspiracy theory of the Japanese building diesels ???? I would wager that the Big 3, probably Chrysler will build a diesel car since it has so much Mercedes Benz diesel technology at it's disposale.
It is quite simple. Honda was not doing well with their gas cars in the EU. They are doing quite well with their first attempt at a diesel engine. Prior to that they bought diesel engines from other automakers. Toyota also has built diesel cars and trucks for all the rest of the world. A Tacoma with a decent 4 cylinder diesel would be on my short list. Their gas Tacoma PU trucks do not get any better mileage than my full size GM V8.
Also am not sure what you mean by "The conspiracy theory of the Japanese building diesels ???? "
Their gasser cars in Europe have not been doing well.
Rocky
However diesel do occupy a very small market, 2.3%-2.9%.
Again, not too sure where you have been in that American diesels (such as Cummins) are doing real well. GM also has their highly successful diesel pick up truck line as does FORD and DCB.
I want one
Rocky
Their new engine looks okay, but only time will tell. My concern is how it will handle the crappy domestic diesel sold here in the U.S. ULSD will be in place soon (thank goodness) and that will good a long way to helping diesels run better. Additional cetane would be nice too, but I do not see that happening (correct me if I am wrong).
Seems kind of silly in my view, except for DCX. CRD seems to be a flexible moniker that can be used in either case, car or truck.
When I speak of quality, I am speaking of cleanliness, wax,bad volatile components, tar, etc. I would like to see EU quality fuel with UL sulfur content.
http://pedia.nodeworks.com/B/BI/BIO/Biodiesel
I am not in the research diesel "mental space" right now but perhaps
a few sites might trigger your interests.
http://www.chevron.com/products/prodserv/fuels/bulletin/diesel/
http://api-ec.api.org/about/index.cfm?objectid=463B2849-37A4-4789-9F2E13CECF79CA- 98&method=display_body&er=1&bitmask=001002001000000000
http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/oog/info/gdu/gasdiesel.asp
http://www.ecdiesel.com/about/product.asp#West
I saw an interesting item while browsing last evening on an item called Syntroleum. It is made from natural gas, is sulfur free, aromatic free, asphaltine free, and has a cetane of 74! I have no idea how much this stuff costs per gallon but it would be interesting to blend this with regular diesel to improve the cetane and overall quality of regular diesel fuel.
Do you think they would believe that?
I think even on this board where folks tend to be more of the "enthusiast type" etc, etc, most folks almost totally ignore the fact diesel was set behind (25-30 years going on) at the time the decision was made to switch from leaded regular to unleaded regular and the old high sulfur diesel fuel was essentially not required to go to lower sulfur. In my mind a HUGE catastrophic mistake! So naturally unleaded regular had the better part of 30-35 years of R & D to get to the stage of where it is now. This is of course very very good or very very bad depending on ones perspective. To its credit the diesel side has made better and faster strides than unleaded regular ever had % and time wise. But yes it is LARGELY lost on most folks.
My take is essentially this, that unleaded regular is a "one trick pony" compared to diesel. Either of both of these products will have going forward (for the USA anyway)a market life of easily 25-50 years. (conservatively I might add) The current CA regulations actually conspire to further dependency on foreign oil, NOT lessen it, again due to unleaded regulars one trick pony status. Yet from the other side of the mouth, in the same breath it is professed to be for LESS foreign oil dependency.
So to me it is scarcely any wonder why the regulations reflect this skitzoid nature. It is sort of trying to go 120 mph while stomping on the brakes and wondering why it is so hard to go 120 mph.
I like what the EU countries are doing, encouraging people to drive fuel efficient vehicles by giving them a real incentive to do so.
1. More efficient less tax on the car, less efficient, more tax on the car. That means microscopic displacement gassers, perhaps a hybrid, and small diesels would qualify for the lowest possible tax or even a rebate.
2. The more energy dense the fuel is, lower the tax on it should be.
3. Tax greenhouse gas output. Maybe one or two hybrids, diesels, and micro displacement gassers would qualify for the lowest tax bracket.
Now for an unpopular idea, a national speed limit. I grant you it would be hard to enforce, but it would be a start to cutting our dependence on countries that hate us. I suggest 60 or 62 mph.
Interesting you should mention speed limits and Europe in the same post. European autobahns do not have speed limits at all...
http://biz.yahoo.com/special/admire06_article3.html
As a side note, the other day I test drove both the VW Jetta and Bug diesel w/auto and Im 100% sold. The diesel Jetta is my next car.
http://www.newsday.com/mynews/ny-whcov4612998feb05,0,5419752.story
Although some import automakers are ready to install diesels in cars, the Big Three are betting on big trucks. General Motors won't install diesels in cars or small trucks unless consumers demand them, says Tom Stephens, GM's group vice president for global power train. "We do not see an affordable way to implement that technology," he said, "but if the market demands it, I'm there."
For now, Ford also is confining its diesels to heavy-duty pickups.
In my mind the drill with the diesel, since it is "off the shelf technology", that as more diesels become available the cost will come closer to gas engines, i.e. decreasing to no premiums.
I think also the ability to give lip service to "saving" unleaded gas or being environmentally friendly without real structural changes is VERY appealling. I have yet to hear even a logical, let alone cogent argument on how continued use of unleaded regular is going to lessen our dependence on "UNLEADED" regular, i.e., foreign oil. It is akin to saying one has beat the cocaine addiction by using less cocaine than one has before.
Ethanol is a bandaid. and is only a temporary solution.
On the other hand, biodiesel in B100 form gives you 98% of energy of dino diesel (2% loss). Better solution in my view.
I do believe and or agree with your take that diesel does present a better "bang for the buck" in very many metrics.
If spark ignition engines could be designed to handle ethanol without the degradation in fuel economy, then I agree with you, it is a way out of middle east petroleum dependence. Spark ignition engines would have to be re-engineered to take full advantage of ethanol, not a cheap prospect.
http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,70273-0.html?tw=wn_technology_autotech_1
If this bears fruit, all the other alternatives can be put to bed.
Hydrogen can be used in fuel cells, and, as research pioneered by BMW shows, only slightly modified internal combustion engines.
Really the discussion has centered around the commercial applications of the hybrid and diesels for the next 20-50 years. VW has gone on record through a CEO that diesel is THE commercial future for the next 30 years. (the VW CEO's take)
Now I happen to agree with him, in that the trucking industry (which I think most folks know by now is THE backbone of the USA economy) really will go with the diesel scenario. So really the snap shot right now is a hydrogen Honda Civic at 16 dollars per gal of hydrogen (by weight) with 22 mpg. vs Honda Civic unleaded regular at 2.30 per gal and 35 mpg.
So to get the same economy with the current factors, one needs 244 mpg!!
So if we can wave the magic wand and equip the ENTIRE passenger vehicle fleet with hybrids (235.4 M vehicles), a particularly cogent question would be: how long would it take to happen? Another question would be why would we want to manufacture 235.4 M electric motors in addition to the engines we now manufacture?????? It is not even close to a one for one replacement for the fuel and emissions saved!!! It is also doubly perplexing in that diesel has a 37% fuel mileage advantage over ANY like for like gasoline engine. i.e. gasser hybrid, Prius.
CR tested the automatic TDI. Buy the manual and you will obtain higher mpg than the Civic Hybrid.
And Hybrids do not save drivers money
http://www.channel4.com/4car/feature/environment/2006/psa-diesel-hybrid/index.ht- ml
So if one puts this into context what comes out to be is individuals will reap the benefits and the overall situation will not change too much. NOBODY has gone on record saying with highly correlated statistical probablity that ANY area will experience cleaner emissions with X number of gasser hybrid diesels in operation. NOBODY!!! As a point of comparision hybrids are LESS than 1% of the population and diesels are 2.3-2.9% of the passenger vehicle fleet population.
In the meantime, I mean currently how many folks but me (individual owners) really care that my VW Jetta TDI can CURRENTLY get a range of between 44-62 MPG??
More than you think. First the hurdles one must go through to have a diesel car in CA is pretty substantial. In spite of the CARB rules many are finding a way to do just that. I also think it is good that Hawaii Bio Beetles have opened a rental location in Los Angeles. You are not alone. There is a growing segment of the population that want to do away with fossil fuel not just use a tiny bit less.
http://www.bio-beetle.com/
A comeback by diesels could also give European brands - long the underdogs with just 4 percent of Japan's car market - a welcome boost, help domestic oil refiners cut their losses by creating a better balance of gasoline and diesel supply, nudge Japan closer to a UN-mandated goal of cutting greenhouse gases, and provide a boon for diesel-parts makers like Bosch and Ibiden.
"You can buy practically anything in Japan, but not diesel cars," said Himei, a native of Okayama, who drove a gasoline-powered 307 before buying his used diesel version online.
"It's high time Japan woke up" to the merits of diesel, he said.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/03/03/business/diesel.php
You wrote : -
"So if we can wave the magic wand and equip the ENTIRE passenger vehicle fleet with hybrids (235.4 M vehicles), a particularly cogent question would be: how long would it take to happen? Another question would be why would we want to manufacture 235.4 M electric motors in addition to the engines we now manufacture?????? It is not even close to a one for one replacement for the fuel and emissions saved!!!"
You left out the generators as well !! There would be another 235.4M of them too.
Things aren't as bad as they seem. We are in the infancy of vehicle development particularly with hybrids today and many of the old time car companies have corporate structures that would let themselves go bankrupt than change as we can see.
But amongst those that will stay however -
Currently we have the most expensive and worst implementations of hybrids because of the reticence of companies to fully embrace the idea. We are still getting conventional automobile engines placed into hybrids. Then coupling, in some mechanical fashion, of them to the wheels completes the job. In other words it is still the IRON AGE of automobile technology.
In this IRON AGE -
1.We are still using the conventional sized internal combustion engine.(ICE) No savings there.
2.An electric motor geared 4:1 (a 3rd gear ratio) to the wheels is still OK. Who is it thinks starting off in THIRD GEAR is OK??
3.Battery power is being used for power assist by PRIUS despite Toyota designers knowing full well that the engine in that vehicle cannot attain its 5000rpm design limit until the vehicle reaches close to 50 mph !!!
In answer -
1. There are 600cc liquid cooled motorcycle engines that can outperform the 1.5L engine currently used in Prius.
They could be Atkinsonised for low emissions.
2. Nothing wrong here if you don't mind your electric motor 2.5 times larger and more expensive because you didn't gear it with a 1st gear ratio like you shoulda.
3. No comment necessary.
Electric generators, I didn't mention, would be significantly downsized since they need only produce their maximum output at 12000rpm - a suggested top speed. MG1 is the bench mark from the PRIUS to give some idea of what's needed.
Electric motors are usually several times larger than their equivalent electric generators because it is desirable for motors to be able to produce full power over at least a 4:1 driving speed range. (3000-12000rpm)
Delphi has produced such a beast a motor with integral gearbox weighs 86lbs. There's a nice pic on ORNL.gov
We could probably speculate that the equivalent generator for this motor would probably weigh in at 30lbs.
My main point here is that despite Hybrids appearing to use 3 "engines" overall, with competent design they could be lighter and just as powerful as present offerings without the severe hybrid premium.
T2
I think that the car companies that have not joined the fray are still in shock. They thought we all owned calculators and knew how to use them. Little did they guess that people would pay more for the hybrid premium than they could ever hope to gain in fuel economy.
PS
Your down to earth explanations of how things work is always a welcome read. I agree that so far the hybrids have taken the wrong direction.
In Consumer Reports’ analysis, none of the six hybrids tested recovered its price premium in the first five years and 75,000 miles of ownership. In fact, the extra ownership costs over five years for those vehicles ranged from $3,700 to $13,300.
Even when the analysis was extended to a period of 10 years and 150,000 miles, it was not possible to recover the price premium for a hybrid vehicle.