Hybrids & Diesels - Deals or Duds?

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Comments

  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Selling Diesel Love

    Looks like Honda's diesel marketing is attracting some attention. Will they use the same type of marketing when they introduce their diesels here?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Good article. It looks like Honda has learned it's lesson about building hybrids. The CRV with a diesel would work for me.

    Honda, which now sells three hybrid vehicles, says it has no plans to roll out any more, that it's not marching to Toyota Motor's strategy of a hybrid for every Toyota and Lexus
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    I felt like I waited a lifetime to see a Honda diesel on our shores.

    Unfortunately the article does not provide any time-line in terms of its introductions here. My dream car is a 2.2l diesel Honda Accord with a manual stick. If they do introduce such a vehicle then I will be greatly relieved that I just cancelled my order for a Camry hybrid.

    A Honda 2.2l diesel is certainly a worthy successor to my wife's 83 MB300D.

    How long is Honda going to keep me waiting :cry:
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    So my next question is what kind of commitment will Honda show in their Hybrid endeavors?

    I mean the Insight and Accord are not exactly stellar in terms of sales success.

    The Honda Civic hybrid is impressive BUT will Honda's hybrid success be defined by only one vehicle. Will it be worth Honda's while to invest in hybrid innovation when it will be only applied to one successful vehicle? What about the money involved in training and investing in hybrid services and support? Is it worth spending such vast sums for just one successful vehicle.

    At least Toyota is applying their HSD technology to a wide range of autos. Such an approach will provide the economies of scale required for producing less costly hybrids in the future(remember I said future and not the present)
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "At least Toyota is applying their HSD technology to a wide range of autos. Such an approach will provide the economies of scale required for producing less costly hybrids in the future(remember I said future and not the present)"

    It is an interesting decision by Honda, considering their IMA hybrid system is more easily adapted to an existing car. Personally I think they are leaning towards low sulfur diesel allowing them to get better MPG in the 2007-2008 time frame, at a lower cost than hybrids, and with greater engine longevity. One of Honda's design goals is to make their cars last a long time. A diesel works really well for that goal.
  • jkinzeljkinzel Member Posts: 735
    Below is Honda’s address. Write to them and tell them you saw the diesel article in Business Week and would like to know when they plan on providing the US with diesel. Tell them what you would like to see. Let them know you have money to spend on a diesel car. Money and interest talk. If enough interest is shown they might get things moving.
    My letter goes out Monday.

    American Honda Motor Co., Inc.
    Honda Automobile Customer Service
    1919 Torrance Boulevard
    Mail Stop: 500 - 2N - 7D
    Torrance, CA 90501-2746
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Good proactive approach. Except in my case I will have to write to Honda Canada.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    It is an interesting decision by Honda, considering their IMA hybrid system is more easily adapted to an existing car.

    Ever since early last year when Honda announced there will be no hybrid SUVs, I knew that Honda was not as serious about hybrids as Toyota is right now. Maybe Honda is waiting until affordable lithium ion batteries can be used in hybrids. The killer for hybrid fuel efficiency is weight. Lithium batteries are advantageous since they are only 25 % of the weight of nickel metal hybrid batteries.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Honda and Toyota to my mind are both on the cutting edge. However, it is a classic David and Goliath conflict. Toyota is now the new GM. (when GM was synonymous with being king of the hill)

    If you look at the smaller company Honda, it has an impressive array of products (not just vehicles). It LEADS in almost all the (for our discussion, vehicles) segments it chooses to enter, i.e., economy car segment leader, mini van, suv, truck, sports car, upscale line (Acura).

    R&D wise, it has the gasser/hybrid, natural gas, hydrogen, electric etc. But because it is a smaller company, it can ill afford mistakes, and if and when they do happen, own up to it and either make it better or move on.

    So when Honda did a concept to market iCTDi product that is about as commitment driven as one can get. It was headed by the Honda engineer who did the now famous VTEC. It takes cross hairs aim at the European diesel market, where Honda has not done particularly well. It's stated target is diesel sales being a huge percentage of its European sales.

    http://world.honda.com/HDTV/news/2003-4030226_1a/

    So I think for the next 5 to 25 years the diesel product will be a cornerstone of the Honda line whether or not it catches on in the USA. I for one hope it does.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Toyota is now the new GM. (when GM was synonymous with being king of the hill)

    -Last time I checked GM is still king of the Hill. I haven't read anywhere GM being knocked of it's #1 perch of nearly 80 years. :P

    Rocky

    P.S. The conspiracy theory of the Japanese building diesels ???? I would wager that the Big 3, probably Chrysler will build a diesel car since it has so much Mercedes Benz diesel technology at it's disposale.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The conspiracy theory of the Japanese building diesels ????

    It is quite simple. Honda was not doing well with their gas cars in the EU. They are doing quite well with their first attempt at a diesel engine. Prior to that they bought diesel engines from other automakers. Toyota also has built diesel cars and trucks for all the rest of the world. A Tacoma with a decent 4 cylinder diesel would be on my short list. Their gas Tacoma PU trucks do not get any better mileage than my full size GM V8.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Not sure where you have been as GM continues to literally LOSE BILLIONS of dollars. They have cut the dividends. The stocks flirts with new historical lows. (not necessarily a bad thing if you are in the down elevator going down) It is common knowledge they are considering bankruptcy.

    Also am not sure what you mean by "The conspiracy theory of the Japanese building diesels ???? "

    Their gasser cars in Europe have not been doing well.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Well their diesel engines were "busts" is what I mean. Perhaps the task at hand is to complicated ???? I really want to ask why don't they just copy an american or European diesel just like they pretty much do with everything else. :surprise: If you don't believe that statement to be true then you need to watch the news.

    Rocky
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Honda's diesel from concept to market product cetainly does not follow your "true statement" about copying an American or Euro diesel, now does it?

    However diesel do occupy a very small market, 2.3%-2.9%.

    Again, not too sure where you have been in that American diesels (such as Cummins) are doing real well. GM also has their highly successful diesel pick up truck line as does FORD and DCB.
  • jkinzeljkinzel Member Posts: 735
    link title

    I want one
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    I was referring to car diesels. The big question is are the Big 3 going to keep the names of the truck diesels, for the cars ????????

    Rocky
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    Honda's diesels were licensed from another company, which one I do not know. If Honda had trouble with these, then there was something wrong with the design to begin with or else Honda messed with a sound design and caused problems. Hard to say, just speculation about the latter.

    Their new engine looks okay, but only time will tell. My concern is how it will handle the crappy domestic diesel sold here in the U.S. ULSD will be in place soon (thank goodness) and that will good a long way to helping diesels run better. Additional cetane would be nice too, but I do not see that happening (correct me if I am wrong).
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    Ask them!!!

    Seems kind of silly in my view, except for DCX. CRD seems to be a flexible moniker that can be used in either case, car or truck.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Well for sure I think one of the reasons the Honda iCTDi is not in the USA is because of NON low sulfur diesel aka 2006 ULSD. VW's CAN run on it but truly it is not the best for it. I read one specification in passing saying the new ULSD fuel will have 50-51 cetane.
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    I would like to see that spec. I know that cetane in CA is in the upper 40's by law depending on refiner size.

    When I speak of quality, I am speaking of cleanliness, wax,bad volatile components, tar, etc. I would like to see EU quality fuel with UL sulfur content.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    See the following link. BP ECD-1 the only diesel sold by ARCO stations in CA it has an average 52.5 Cetane rating. It has been less than 15 PPM sulfur for at least 1 and a half years.

    http://www.ecdiesel.com/about/product.asp#West
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    Thanks for the link. I hope that when ULSD is in place nationwide that it specs out like ECD-1. That would be really nice. I can only imagine how my CRD will run on such fuel. I use cetane improver now which helps quite a bit, especially in the starting department. Had single digit cold this past weekend and the CRD started right away, sans smoke. Was not plugged in.

    I saw an interesting item while browsing last evening on an item called Syntroleum. It is made from natural gas, is sulfur free, aromatic free, asphaltine free, and has a cetane of 74! I have no idea how much this stuff costs per gallon but it would be interesting to blend this with regular diesel to improve the cetane and overall quality of regular diesel fuel.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Right this is the kind of stuff ExxonMobil, etc are doing with Quatar, in investing 7 Billion in (LNG) natural gas conversion. This stuff you mention is cleaner than unleaded regular burnt in the highly touted hybrids, such as Prius, HCH, etc.
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    This stuff you mention is cleaner than unleaded regular burnt in the highly touted hybrids, such as Prius, HCH, etc.

    Do you think they would believe that?
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    NO, NOT AT ALL!!

    I think even on this board where folks tend to be more of the "enthusiast type" etc, etc, most folks almost totally ignore the fact diesel was set behind (25-30 years going on) at the time the decision was made to switch from leaded regular to unleaded regular and the old high sulfur diesel fuel was essentially not required to go to lower sulfur. In my mind a HUGE catastrophic mistake! So naturally unleaded regular had the better part of 30-35 years of R & D to get to the stage of where it is now. This is of course very very good or very very bad depending on ones perspective. To its credit the diesel side has made better and faster strides than unleaded regular ever had % and time wise. But yes it is LARGELY lost on most folks.
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    One note about the sulfur content of fuel be it gasoline or diesel, As I understand it sulfur content in gasoline is pretty much at the same level as it is in diesel. I think that gasoline goes ULS this year too and not just diesel.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    The differences in emissions can be mitigated by current and forward looking technology for both. To the extent it can not then cut it a break so the 30-35 year head start effects can be mitigated.

    My take is essentially this, that unleaded regular is a "one trick pony" compared to diesel. Either of both of these products will have going forward (for the USA anyway)a market life of easily 25-50 years. (conservatively I might add) The current CA regulations actually conspire to further dependency on foreign oil, NOT lessen it, again due to unleaded regulars one trick pony status. Yet from the other side of the mouth, in the same breath it is professed to be for LESS foreign oil dependency.

    So to me it is scarcely any wonder why the regulations reflect this skitzoid nature. It is sort of trying to go 120 mph while stomping on the brakes and wondering why it is so hard to go 120 mph.
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    To put it more subtly, "damned if you do and a damned if you do not situation". Really stinks.

    I like what the EU countries are doing, encouraging people to drive fuel efficient vehicles by giving them a real incentive to do so.

    1. More efficient less tax on the car, less efficient, more tax on the car. That means microscopic displacement gassers, perhaps a hybrid, and small diesels would qualify for the lowest possible tax or even a rebate.
    2. The more energy dense the fuel is, lower the tax on it should be.
    3. Tax greenhouse gas output. Maybe one or two hybrids, diesels, and micro displacement gassers would qualify for the lowest tax bracket.

    Now for an unpopular idea, a national speed limit. I grant you it would be hard to enforce, but it would be a start to cutting our dependence on countries that hate us. I suggest 60 or 62 mph.
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "Now for an unpopular idea, a national speed limit. I grant you it would be hard to enforce, but it would be a start to cutting our dependence on countries that hate us. I suggest 60 or 62 mph."

    Interesting you should mention speed limits and Europe in the same post. European autobahns do not have speed limits at all...
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    Let's stick to the hybrids and diesels here and avoid falling into the speed limit arguement please.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
  • jkinzeljkinzel Member Posts: 735
    And Ford and GM wonder why the rest of the world is passing them by.

    As a side note, the other day I test drove both the VW Jetta and Bug diesel w/auto and Im 100% sold. The diesel Jetta is my next car.
    http://www.newsday.com/mynews/ny-whcov4612998feb05,0,5419752.story

    Although some import automakers are ready to install diesels in cars, the Big Three are betting on big trucks. General Motors won't install diesels in cars or small trucks unless consumers demand them, says Tom Stephens, GM's group vice president for global power train. "We do not see an affordable way to implement that technology," he said, "but if the market demands it, I'm there."

    For now, Ford also is confining its diesels to heavy-duty pickups.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I think truly it is about marketing. While it cost more money to build (and market,etc)) hybrids, I think it has been more than amply demonstrated hybrids command a premium in the market place, i.e., folks lining up to pay MSRP and more for the Prius, HCH, etc. The market is virtually untapped at less than 1%(hybrid) of the passenger vehicle fleet population. So they can make the premium, and the spread of: however much they are able to drive down the COSTS on the hybrid.

    In my mind the drill with the diesel, since it is "off the shelf technology", that as more diesels become available the cost will come closer to gas engines, i.e. decreasing to no premiums.

    I think also the ability to give lip service to "saving" unleaded gas or being environmentally friendly without real structural changes is VERY appealling. I have yet to hear even a logical, let alone cogent argument on how continued use of unleaded regular is going to lessen our dependence on "UNLEADED" regular, i.e., foreign oil. It is akin to saying one has beat the cocaine addiction by using less cocaine than one has before. :(
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    To add to your article there was an item about the cost of making ethanol. It said it costs more to make than the energy it returns, especially if made from corn. Ethanol contains about 40% less energy per equivalent volume than gasoline.

    Ethanol is a bandaid. and is only a temporary solution.

    On the other hand, biodiesel in B100 form gives you 98% of energy of dino diesel (2% loss). Better solution in my view.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I would not disagree with your take at all. However even as a so called "stop gap measure", ethanol use (especially a much higher % of the vehicle fleet) DOES structurally "GET US OFF" the dependence on foreign oil, and all that has come to signify. So for example, I would not be against the alternative energy ethanol.

    I do believe and or agree with your take that diesel does present a better "bang for the buck" in very many metrics.
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    The issue I have with ethanol is that cars today cannot fully take advantage of it's low energy density. The addition of ethanol degrades fuel economy especially past E10.

    If spark ignition engines could be designed to handle ethanol without the degradation in fuel economy, then I agree with you, it is a way out of middle east petroleum dependence. Spark ignition engines would have to be re-engineered to take full advantage of ethanol, not a cheap prospect.
  • logic1logic1 Member Posts: 2,433
    is making progress:

    http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,70273-0.html?tw=wn_technology_autotech_1

    If this bears fruit, all the other alternatives can be put to bed.

    Hydrogen can be used in fuel cells, and, as research pioneered by BMW shows, only slightly modified internal combustion engines.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Leave it to my alma mater! :)

    Really the discussion has centered around the commercial applications of the hybrid and diesels for the next 20-50 years. VW has gone on record through a CEO that diesel is THE commercial future for the next 30 years. (the VW CEO's take)

    Now I happen to agree with him, in that the trucking industry (which I think most folks know by now is THE backbone of the USA economy) really will go with the diesel scenario. So really the snap shot right now is a hydrogen Honda Civic at 16 dollars per gal of hydrogen (by weight) with 22 mpg. vs Honda Civic unleaded regular at 2.30 per gal and 35 mpg.

    So to get the same economy with the current factors, one needs 244 mpg!! :(:) Or it might be easy to see, a gal of hydrogen (by weight) needs to be the same price or less than a gal of (current) petro.

    So if we can wave the magic wand and equip the ENTIRE passenger vehicle fleet with hybrids (235.4 M vehicles), a particularly cogent question would be: how long would it take to happen? Another question would be why would we want to manufacture 235.4 M electric motors in addition to the engines we now manufacture?????? It is not even close to a one for one replacement for the fuel and emissions saved!!! It is also doubly perplexing in that diesel has a 37% fuel mileage advantage over ANY like for like gasoline engine. i.e. gasser hybrid, Prius.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    CR rates Jetta TDI and Civic Hybrid "Very Good"

    CR tested the automatic TDI. Buy the manual and you will obtain higher mpg than the Civic Hybrid.

    And Hybrids do not save drivers money
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Independently verified statistics lend weight to Peugeot's argument. The C4/307 Hybride HDi's achieve an EU average consumption of 83.1mpg, which represents a 28% improvement on the standard HDi. The Prius manages 65.7mpg and emits more carbon dioxide - 104g/km versus 90g/km for the C4/307.

    http://www.channel4.com/4car/feature/environment/2006/psa-diesel-hybrid/index.ht- ml
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I also think it needs to be said the hybrid offers up to app 20% fuel mileage potential to structural mileage savings. For some reason in almost ALL marketing etc this is almost NEVER qualified or quantified. So again why are we "SET" on building up to 2X MORE (235.4 M extra) propulsion systems!!!???? In comparison the 37% mileage advantage is almost totally ignored or glossed over. And the 17%to 37% advantage can be had without building a (slave, but) duplicate propulsion system!!!!(hybrid by itself is not stand alone) And of course it will be HUGELY CHEAPER !!! AND at 2,000 to 7,500 dollars cheaper than a HCH or Toyota Prius????

    So if one puts this into context what comes out to be is individuals will reap the benefits and the overall situation will not change too much. NOBODY has gone on record saying with highly correlated statistical probablity that ANY area will experience cleaner emissions with X number of gasser hybrid diesels in operation. NOBODY!!! As a point of comparision hybrids are LESS than 1% of the population and diesels are 2.3-2.9% of the passenger vehicle fleet population.

    In the meantime, I mean currently how many folks but me (individual owners) really care that my VW Jetta TDI can CURRENTLY get a range of between 44-62 MPG?? :(:)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    currently how many folks but me (individual owners) really care that my VW Jetta TDI can CURRENTLY get a range of between 44-62 MPG??

    More than you think. First the hurdles one must go through to have a diesel car in CA is pretty substantial. In spite of the CARB rules many are finding a way to do just that. I also think it is good that Hawaii Bio Beetles have opened a rental location in Los Angeles. You are not alone. There is a growing segment of the population that want to do away with fossil fuel not just use a tiny bit less.

    http://www.bio-beetle.com/
  • frankactfrankact Member Posts: 6
    Just got my April issue and the Prius and Corvette (strange company) have the highest satisfaction rating. VW and Audi did poorly in reliability but that is to be expected.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Diesel-savvy European car makers, cheered by a growing acceptance in the United States and the arrival of cleaner fuel, are gearing up to reverse that trend in a move that could force domestic brands to follow suit and stir up the world's third-biggest car market.

    A comeback by diesels could also give European brands - long the underdogs with just 4 percent of Japan's car market - a welcome boost, help domestic oil refiners cut their losses by creating a better balance of gasoline and diesel supply, nudge Japan closer to a UN-mandated goal of cutting greenhouse gases, and provide a boon for diesel-parts makers like Bosch and Ibiden.

    "You can buy practically anything in Japan, but not diesel cars," said Himei, a native of Okayama, who drove a gasoline-powered 307 before buying his used diesel version online.

    "It's high time Japan woke up" to the merits of diesel, he said.


    http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/03/03/business/diesel.php
  • toyolla2toyolla2 Member Posts: 158
    hi Ruking,
    You wrote : -
    "So if we can wave the magic wand and equip the ENTIRE passenger vehicle fleet with hybrids (235.4 M vehicles), a particularly cogent question would be: how long would it take to happen? Another question would be why would we want to manufacture 235.4 M electric motors in addition to the engines we now manufacture?????? It is not even close to a one for one replacement for the fuel and emissions saved!!!"

    You left out the generators as well !! There would be another 235.4M of them too.

    Things aren't as bad as they seem. We are in the infancy of vehicle development particularly with hybrids today and many of the old time car companies have corporate structures that would let themselves go bankrupt than change as we can see.

    But amongst those that will stay however -

    Currently we have the most expensive and worst implementations of hybrids because of the reticence of companies to fully embrace the idea. We are still getting conventional automobile engines placed into hybrids. Then coupling, in some mechanical fashion, of them to the wheels completes the job. In other words it is still the IRON AGE of automobile technology.

    In this IRON AGE -
    1.We are still using the conventional sized internal combustion engine.(ICE) No savings there.

    2.An electric motor geared 4:1 (a 3rd gear ratio) to the wheels is still OK. Who is it thinks starting off in THIRD GEAR is OK??

    3.Battery power is being used for power assist by PRIUS despite Toyota designers knowing full well that the engine in that vehicle cannot attain its 5000rpm design limit until the vehicle reaches close to 50 mph !!!

    In answer -
    1. There are 600cc liquid cooled motorcycle engines that can outperform the 1.5L engine currently used in Prius.
    They could be Atkinsonised for low emissions.

    2. Nothing wrong here if you don't mind your electric motor 2.5 times larger and more expensive because you didn't gear it with a 1st gear ratio like you shoulda.

    3. No comment necessary.

    Electric generators, I didn't mention, would be significantly downsized since they need only produce their maximum output at 12000rpm - a suggested top speed. MG1 is the bench mark from the PRIUS to give some idea of what's needed.

    Electric motors are usually several times larger than their equivalent electric generators because it is desirable for motors to be able to produce full power over at least a 4:1 driving speed range. (3000-12000rpm)
    Delphi has produced such a beast a motor with integral gearbox weighs 86lbs. There's a nice pic on ORNL.gov

    We could probably speculate that the equivalent generator for this motor would probably weigh in at 30lbs.

    My main point here is that despite Hybrids appearing to use 3 "engines" overall, with competent design they could be lighter and just as powerful as present offerings without the severe hybrid premium.
    T2
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    We are in the infancy of hybrid development today and many of the old time car companies would let themselves go bankrupt than change as we are now seeing.

    I think that the car companies that have not joined the fray are still in shock. They thought we all owned calculators and knew how to use them. Little did they guess that people would pay more for the hybrid premium than they could ever hope to gain in fuel economy.

    PS
    Your down to earth explanations of how things work is always a welcome read. I agree that so far the hybrids have taken the wrong direction.
  • frankactfrankact Member Posts: 6
    It seems hybrids have taken a direction toward wide acceptance. This is evidenced by many manufacturers making comittments to the technology. GM especially. Last year Prius had a 94% satisfaction rating from CR, now it has 95%. The least favored car was the Lancer at 26%. Most Germans manufacturers were at the bottom of the list in reliability. Doesn't seem likely their diesels will do well here unless the Japanese bring their diesels here too. At least they will be reliable.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Was that the same issue of CR that made the following statements? From their analysis it defies common logic to buy a hybrid.

    In Consumer Reports’ analysis, none of the six hybrids tested recovered its price premium in the first five years and 75,000 miles of ownership. In fact, the extra ownership costs over five years for those vehicles ranged from $3,700 to $13,300.

    Even when the analysis was extended to a period of 10 years and 150,000 miles, it was not possible to recover the price premium for a hybrid vehicle.
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