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Maybe next year for the Mariner.
and I sure wish Toyota would give me 30 mpg in a hybrid, without having to buy the Prius or the Camry. What's a guy with style to do?
;-)
07 Camry Hyb -- City 40 /Hwy 38 ... ( 35-39 )
07 Highldr Hyb -- City 31-33/Hwy 27-28 ... ( 25-27 2WD )
07 Prius -- City 60/Hwy 51 .. ( 45-50 )
07 Civic -- City 49/Hwy 51 ... ( 44-50 )
07 Vue GrnLine -- City 27/ Hwy 32 ... ( none reported yet )
07 Escape Hyb -- City 33-36/Hwy 29-31 ... ( 30-34 2WD )
The highlighted numbers are the middle 50% values from GreenHybrid's database.
If I was ( I am ) on the highway for 20K+ annually it would be more a question of whether the Passat and the sporty feeling was more for my taste or whether the TCH and the smoother ride ( and better QDR rep ) fit me better.
This is truly a personal preference question. Both are fine vehicles, at about the same price level and about the same fuel economy.
Why did Toyota drop the Camry Wagon? I would rather have a wagon than sedan any day. Of course I like PU trucks and SUVs better than sedans. VW Passat seems to only be available in a wagon currently.
I would think that a Camry hybrid wagon would be easier to fit the batteries into. Now that they have a chunk of Subaru, they may add HSD to one of their wagons.
During a recent trip to Florida from Maryland, I averaged 27.2 MPG for the trip at mostly 75 MPH speeds and the A/C on more than 75% of the time. I weighed the vehicle at a truck weigh station for the fun of it and including myself and luggage, weighed in at 5050 pounds. The naked Liberty CRD weighs in at a hair over 4300 pounds.
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/14191050/
Jeep has dropped its Liberty diesel for '07 because it can't meet tougher new federal emissions standards and Chrysler decided it wasn't cost-effective to develop a newer version.
However, Jeep does plan to market a new Jeep Grand Cherokee diesel early in 2007. The 3.0L/215-hp common rail diesel is built by Mercedes-Benz in Europe and gets an estimated 19 miles city and 23 mpg on the highway. A comparable Jeep V8 has an overall mpg rate of 14 combined city and highway miles.
Funny how they can't make the Liberty diesel "clean enough" but that they CAN make the Grand Cherokee "clean enough?" Whatsup with that?
The mercedes ML320 cdi isn't too far from market (i posted a link last week in the "diesels in the news" thread). I'm not sure what the exact numbers will be, but it should be in the 30s (doing fuzzy math based on the difference between the ML320 and E320 gas vehicles).
The Cherokee bluetec is estimated to only hit the very low 20s (as larsb posted).
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
LOL!
Thanks for the smile!
-Eltonron
Camry wagon now is the Highlander.. same platform as the Camry with an SUV look.
Next year the RAV will be the Camry wagon equivalent while the Highlander goes to the Avalon platform.
Every vehicle is bigger now. The current Corolla is about the same size, but more powerful, as my 'midsized' 1989 Camry.
When will the new diesels arrive?
http://www.cleanairfleets.org/standards.html
2007 – The standards will be lowered in 2007 to 0.01 g/bhp-hr for PM and 0.20 g/bhp-hr for NOx. In order to achieve the 2007 standards, an ultra-low sulfur fuel (sulfur content 15 ppm) is required and after-market technology is available. This equipment includes catalyzed traps, oxidation catalysts, NOx absorbers, and selective catalytic reduction systems.
My question is why not put the M-B 3.0L diesel in the Liberty as well as the Grd Cherokee? But I bet cost is the issue there...
Cost is part of the issue here. The other issue is power. The MB 3.0L generates about 376 lb-ft of torque at about 1800 RPM. The problems is that body structure of the Liberty cannot tolerate that much wallop. I have a 2005 Liberty CRD. The 2.8L turbo diesel in it generates 295 lb-ft of torque at 1800 RPM. The structure of the Liberty is stout enough to handle 295 lb-ft, but not my much. The cost of the diesel in my CRD was $846 once you strip away the other mandatory items that came in the package. The cost of the MB engine might be $1000 to $1300. Again DCX will probably package the diesel engine in a package that requires mandatory items.
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As most folks probably know, most later model diesels can run the ULSD fuel (almost) seamlessly. In the case of the 2003 VW Jetta TDI it was MADE to run on ULSD fuel.
I also have heard rumor the USLD having a tad less energy at the 1 gal to 1.1 gal ratio. Might be just normal variation in refining and distribution. The real expectation is NO loss of MPG.
Since USLD is a "cleaner fuel," I would be looking forward to UPWARDS of 30,000 miles between oil changes !! (we've come a long way BABY from 3,000 miles between oil changes??) What are the oil change intervals for most hybrids? The cetane rating is a min of 11% better!! (the readers digest version is cetane is akin to higher octane in gassers) The engine will probably run smoother and I know cleaner!
I for one am looking forward to the implementation of ULSD as the new "commonly" available #2 diesel!
In this day and age of MASSIVE globalization and the USA almost carte blanche shipping jobs overseas, it is disqusting to see the fuller line of (say) diesel products that do NOT hit our shores. So for example, the REAL (European) fuel sippers are literally BANNED from our shores. Also almost every European model sold in the USA has a D model available, diesel. (but NOT in the the USA)
On the other side of the topic, hybrids are NOT lighting the WORLD WIDE markets on fire and in fact seem to only exist in the USA and probably Japan.
after the 74/78 oil debacles i rode a bike to work for 20 some years. On decent roads rain, snow or shine, I rode about 50% of the time took mass trans another 25%.
Now i am 'retired' to a small ranching operation, and bicycles just don't take me 30 miles to town, to haul livestock or hay or fencing.
I am looking for an auto tho. I have a Toyota t100 that gets 25 mpg with careful driving on our dirt road and 26-27 on the highway ... I drive only 61.8 mph (100 kph). It is amazing the difference in 60 vx 75 mph!
Frankly if we want to lower demand for gas it is only in lowering the speed limit that we immediately effect the whole existing fleet.
I am thinking of a diesel auto for longer road trips and only looking at used ... already on the road models.
are there any like minded folks on this forum who have advice??
O yeah we are 66 years old so some comfort is preferable... arthritis etc becoming an issue for us ..
looking forward to polite discussion and mild argument of pros and cons of diesel or hybrid.
oh yes hybrids would never survive our dirt road ...
What if there was no demand for middle Eastern dino fuel and the area just became a footnote to history.
I reckon there are no '06 diesel libertys on the lots anywhere. Possibly if you do some internet searching you can find a nice used one.
These were popular cars. A good used one will probably go fast and at the upper range of its Edmunds True Market Value.
But if you grow your own fuel source (i.e corn), you're converting energy from the sun into fuel for your automobile.
Who cares about efficiency at that point. Or am I being too simplistic?
A Summary of Major Studies--Authors and Date NEV (Btu)
Shapouri (1995) - USDA +20,436 (HHV)
Lorenz and Morris (1995) - Institute for Local Self-Reliance +30,589 (HHV)
Agri. and Agri-Food, CAN (1999) +29,826 (LHV)
Wang(1999) – Argonne National Laboratory +22,500 (LHV)
Pimentel (2001) - Cornell University -33,562 (LHV)
Shapouri Update (2002) – USDA +21,105 (HHV)
Kim and Dale (2002) - Michigan St +23,866 to +35,463 (LHV)
Shapouri (2004) – USDA +30,258 (LHV)
All depends on where you get your data
as a former statistician and computer modeler I do know how the data can be 'rigged' or how unfortunate negative information can be ignored.
the argument is not clearly resolved, but my statistical intuition is leaning strongly toward Pimentel.
I have gone 40-45 mph on 80-85 mph highways and literally within a measured area and distance had 1000's of cars pass including 5 Highway Patrol cars on the prowl no less and not even a second look from them.
Keep up the mpg work !!
S15 (ULSD) will have about one or two percent less energy content than the present S500. A good deal of the energy loss is from the removal of the aromatic compounds that contribute to PM formation as well as PAH formation.
Volkswagen ranks highest among nameplates in the Automotive Environmental Index, with three models in the top 30. While there are no diesels within the top 30, several diesel models from Volkswagen also perform well, which is reflected in VW's strong overall nameplate performance. VW is followed in the nameplate rankings by Honda and Mazda, respectively.
I own one of the 30 most environmentally responsible vehicles on the market.
Here is a direct link to the JD Power press release to see the list of cars:
http://www.jdpower.com/studies_jdpower/pressrelease3.asp?ID=2006147
Eight of the 30 are Hybrids, and if they had counted the 2007 Camry Hybrid there would have been 9 of the top 30 Hybrids, but ZERO diesels......Dang.......
Nothing personal at all.....
You stated that there were ZERO diesels on the list and then concluded that I must own a VW TDI after I stated that I owned a vehicle from the list. :surprise: :sick: :confuse:
It is impossible to make any sense of the logic that led to that conlusion.
I certainly did not say I owned a diesel, or a TDI.
larsbHey, you are the one who said "I own one of the 30 most environmentally responsible vehicles on the market." not me.........
Nothing personal at all.....
$6,600 more than gas sibling
Starting manufacturer’s suggested retail price, including destination charge, is high for this model. It’s $26,480 and includes a continuously variable transmission (CVT) that a driver operates like an automatic, plus some uplevel amenities such as eight-way, power driver’s seat.
This compares with a starting price of $19,900 for a base Camry CE with four-cylinder engine, automatic transmission and six-way, manual driver’s seat and $23,920 for the lowest-priced Camry with V-6 and automatic.-endCamry Hybrid review
$$$$$$$$$$ :surprise:
The XLE is.
Compared to the XLE, the TCH is only $2400 more.
2007 Camry Hybrid compares to XLE
My Hybrid, with optional navigation system, heated mirrors and carpet trunk/mat set, came in at $27,909, including a $580 destination charge. Comparing a similarly equipped (loosely speaking) XLE with a Hybrid, one gets a "hybrid mark-up" of $2,415. There is a federal tax credit on the Camry Hybrid of $2,600 right now, which will drop to $1,300 for the two quarters after September, then to $650 for the two quarters after that, ending on Oct. 1, 2007.
So you can save the planet, you can drive like a maniac, you can even get a tax break: What's not to love about the 2007 Toyota Camry Hybrid? This, we hope, is the shape of things to come.
$6,600 - OH SO SILLY !!
My take? Get a real V-8, or another car or WALK.
Are you saying that hybrids aren't "green"
or that "performance" hybrids aren't "green"?
or that it isn't green to drive a car that costs over $40k?
My perspective on the GS450H is that those buyers were not gonna buy a 4-cylinder anything. Those folks want lots of horsepower. What's wrong with giving them what they want at a 100% yearly fuel savings? (assuming that any car competitive to the GS450H is going to get around 13 mpg)
for 40 grand
However if a diesel is mated to a hybrid, the diesel hybrid will have an app 37% advantage over a gasser hybrid.
.. that a diesel saves 30-40% of fuel consumption in and of itself.
.. that a gasser hybrid also saves 30-40% of fuel consumption in and of itself.
If the technical hurdles can be overcome then a diesel hybrid may save 25-50% of fuel consumption over a basic diesel system. The addition of the hybrid electomechanical 'multiplier' is intended to be used for whatever fuel source is being utilized.
So if I am to take the liberty of TODAY (as opposed to two years ago) selecting between a Civic, Civic hybrid, Toyota Prius, Corolla, for the PURPOSE of a (cost effective) plain jane 54 mile R/T commute, I would still get it down to between the Corolla and the Civic. If the Civic/Accord diesel were on the market today I would in a heartbeat (given the correct market conditions) select it.
IF a diesel hybrid were on the market today, it would definitely capture my interest.
The pride of Lexus hybrids GS450h is being discounted heavily. The RX400h and Highlander Hybrids have had discounts for a long time. Will the Prius and TCH get discounted after Saturday?
How will it impact the sales of VW Jetta TDIs that are still being offered?
None of them make good economic sense with cheap gas.
Honda has the most easy to compare line up, i.e., the Civic hybrid as well as other "Civics".
In 2004 when I was in the market for a commuter car, it was difficult to (mentally) justify spending app 7,400 more for the Civic hybrid. B/E as a practical matter was very far off.
At 3 dollar gas @38 mpg that is 94,000 miles of commuting.
At 2 dollar gas @38 mpg that is 140,000 miles of commuting.
Again using like for like on the VW Jetta TDI vs 1.8 T, there was literally no premium (40-240 dollars). In this case B/E was almost immediate. So over 81,000 miles and 31/50 mpg, I have saved app 993 gals. @ $3. gas that is a savings of $2,979. Going forward if unleaded regular fuel stays at $2. per gal, the next 81,000 miles, I will still "save" the 993 gals, but it will be $1,986.
So in my mind, the hybrid needs to offer the fuel mileage advantage at the same or lower price (as like model gasser) to have the so called "traction" in the marketplace.
If you also put it in the context of small cars being app 25-27% of total the passenger vehicle fleet, a less than 1% of the TOTAL passenger vehicle fleet of hybrids, it should be more than apparent it truly has a very long way to go.
.. gas is trending toward $2.00/gal
.. the tax credit is down to $1650 beginning Sunday
but of equal weight:
.. this Gen 2 Prius is entering it's 4th year which is when discounts generally have been well entrenched already
.. Toyota just announced that it intends to double the production of Prius', so more availability.
Discounts:
I know you've been complaining about your region in San Diego ( it's also in Fla as well ) as being overpriced with surcharges on the Prius even this year. Yet in the DC area the two most agressive stores have been selling the Prius just above invoice for over a year now. It's their store policy.
As you probably know discounts at the retail level mean nothing to Toyota. As far as it's concerned all the vehicles are being sold at 'full sticker' ( to the dealers ). This is likely to continue for the remaining years of this Gen. What the local stores do is subject to each's inventory levels and sales policies.