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Yet in the DC area the two most agressive stores have been selling the Prius just above invoice for over a year now. It's their store policy.-end
Please tell us the two dealers that are selling Prius just above invoice. And don't tell us CarMax or Fitzmall since Carmax is only discounting around $200 to $300 under MSRP and Fitzmall is around $500 off MSRP
Presntly it does seem that the prices range from $1100 - $1700 over invoice depending on the model.
quote
The question is, Are Americans ready for diesel's second coming? "We've always been a proponent," says Mercedes' E-Class chief, Bart Herring. "But changing the perspective of the rest of the market will take time and effort." Honda's research showed that older Americans are more skeptical of diesel. "Younger people are more open to it," says John Watts, Honda's manager for product planning. "They're more our target of who diesel would appeal to - cars with lots of power yet low fuel consumption."
In other words, for eco-conscious buyers, the race is on.
end
The diesels will arrive.
There are still significant obstacles, one of them is the major differences between Euro and US emissions regulations.
Honda didn’t ask me. I’m 58 and my next car is going to be a diesel.
This isn't accurate. By a HUGE majority the buyers of the xB are young guys, occasionally a young woman, some retired couples.... and a lot ( big number ) of local businesses using them for delivery services and mobile advertising.
What you might be seeing is that youner people have little or no credit so the 'owner' shows to be an older person but that only on the loan. The drivers are mostly young males.
It might be different in SoCal if there is a high number of retirees in a specific area.
Rocky
I would agree. I think a lot of those obstacles are there for a WHOLE lot of reasons. As for the difference between Euro and USA differences in emissions regulations, may I point out that we have absolutely NO issues getting Euro (unleaded regular and unleaded premium) GASSER guzzlers !!!!
The upside of course is: most every oem and model has a DIESEL model. Indeed there are Euro fuel SIPPERS (gasser and diesel) that will probably NEVER see sales in the USA!!!
Diesels are very dirty. (Biodiesel is even worse.) Gas vehicles emit significantly less.
SULEV and PZEV emission ratings make identification of the truly clean very easy. (These are what the hybrids offer.)
None of the diesels available now offer SULEV or PZEV. In fact, they don't even deliver the lower rating of ULEV. Currently, diesel is a step backward when it comes to smog-related emissions.
JOHN
In contrast, light diesel trucks and cars ARE mitigated in compliance with the laws.
..."None of the diesels available now offer SULEV or PZEV. In fact, they don't even deliver the lower rating of ULEV"...
The fact of the matter is the overwhelming majority of the passenger vehicle fleet ( gasser) do NOT meet those standards.
Indeed you might detail to the folks or us on this board how close gassers were to meeting those standards, say in the 1970's.(the regulatory fork in the road so to speak)
I also would say that just like how the % of SUVs has grown to 12% of the passenger vehicle fleet with no statistically significant change attributed to this growth: I would say a diesel growth to 12% of the passenger vehicle fleet would have no statistically significant change attributed to this change (diesel).
So what you are saying is indeed disingenuous and misleading; indeed unrealistic.
Also continue use of unleaded regular (97.1%-97.7% of the passenger vehicle fleet) coming from the higher % of foreign oil (and GROWING) does/could/would NOT mitigate the demand for "FOREIGN OIL" !!!!!!????
So I would say if you are inadvertently or even advertantly making the case for continued (foreign) oil "addiction", then by all means, do nothing different.
I'm all for hydrogen powered vehicles where a by-product is potable and pure H20. But you know hydrogen per gal (by weight) is 18 dollars. For some reason, it only gets 22 mpg.
BUT WAIT it is a can do easy; price hydrogen at 1.22 per gal (by weight) Sell me the Honda (hydrogen burner) at 15k or let me beta test. Give me logistic support to where ever I go. Hey I'll be there with bells on.
Do you have any documentation that backs up your claims that current diesel technology burning the mandated ULSD is not capable of cleaner emissions than new gas vehicles being sold today? I seem to remember you making excuses for the not so clean Prius burning the high sulfur gas sold in most of the USA. It is not the engine or technology. It is the fuel that we have little or no control over.
1. Mercedes BlueTec, "supposed cleanest diesel in the world" not given 50-state emissions approval.
2. VW not being able to sell any 2007 model TDIs anywhere in the USA because they are not clean enough to meet the standards.
Those two items right there tell EVERYONE that as of 2006/2007, the "cleanest diesels" that the diesel car makers can come out with are not YET clean enough.
They may be by 2008, and certainly might be by 2009.
But TODAY, 10-6-2006, they are not clean enough.
My bad: edit to read:
Or should I say that indeed they DO regulate these generators; with the net effect is they
are allowedto useallow use OF (many times) higher sulfur fuel, and NOmitigatedmitigation.You know as well as anyone on this forum that is NOT true. None of your arguments are valid. Why wasn't the BluTec given the CARB nod? Not because it was not SULEV II. It is the same as your EV argument for the Prius. CARB does not trust the citizens to keep the Urea levels. It is the same system that has gotten approval for 2007 in CA for the new GM diesel PU trucks. And they have to be filled with each oil change.
VW is introducing a new cleaner diesel model. Remember your 2007 TCH is only rated an 8. If you wanted a clean car outside of the CARB states you needed to buy a new VW. They have a 9.5 rating in all 50 states. Or is gas mileage a higher priority than emissions?
2. VW not being able to sell any 2007 model TDIs anywhere in the USA because they are not clean enough to meet the standards.
-end
Is the above statement out of ignorance or a deliberate false statement?
The Touareg TDI 2007 is 50 states emissions certified and it is being sold in CA. It has a particulate filter and could not be sold until the ULSD was in place.
But VW won't have any 2007-model Jettas and New Beetles with 1.9-liter turbo-diesel engines. This power plant won't meet new U.S. emission standards, and VW will wait until the 2008 model year to introduce a cleaner diesel engine.
Some VW diesels not clean enough
The nod should go to Corning, (upstate) NY as the USA supplier to VW !!
VW has had to "re-badge" some 2006 TDI models as 2007 models so that they can sell them.
And you know the MB Bluetec is not 50-state approved, right?
So how are those arguments not proof that the 2006/2007 diesels are not clean enough?
If they WERE clean enough, the MB would have been AT LEAST approved for the non-CAFE states.
It's the "cleanest diesel engine in the world" right? But it cannot get 50-state approval?
What more proof do you need of the state of diesels in 2006?
I'd say what more proof of the bias AGAINST diesel does one need?
This of course tells me it is definitely part of the longer term solution.
"Also "unreal" is the Camry Hybrid's Advanced Technology Partial Zero Emissions Vehicle (AT-PZEV) status, making it one of the cleanest vehicles in the world."
From:
Camry Hybrid is PZEV
Camry PZEV
My friend who works at the SCAQMD told me that the 2007 E320 CRD, that was tested with AdBlue, was so clean that it would be rated as PZEV. Why did it fail? Because CARB found that the urea is used up in as little as 7500 miles if the car is always driven hard. It's simple, CARB does not trust us to keep the urea tank full.
I am not anti-diesel.
I am VEHEMENTLY anti-DIRTY DIESEL.
I am waiting for the truly clean diesels to arrive here. Apparently the rest of the world has them, but they cannot pass for "clean enough" in the USA - YET.
I will be pleased when they do make it. Problem is, we have been talking about that arrival for a few years now and nothing has really changed.
Maybe the 2008 model year will be diesel's "coming out" party.
It's the REAL WORLD where we need clean diesels.
To solve the UREA thing, all MB needs to do is "disable the car" when the 7500 mile requirement is reached and force the dealer to change the urea. Or at least put in a warning beep that is so annoying that the owner cannot ignore the required trip to the dealer.
Not really that hard.
The fact of the matter is "clean enough" passes and IS available in the USA- NOW !!!
The issue at hand. (seems to me) is the growth of the passenger diesel fleet from 2.5-2.9% UP wards. So that I am not vague (in anyway) TO 12% (in the short term) as modeled by the growth of SUV's to 12%.
Not really that hard. "
Evidently because of the bias AGAINST diesel, the regulators think that it IS that hard.
Not according to the EPA. In AZ and the other 44 Non-CARB states it only gets an "8". Sorry Charlie no tuna for you. You also are making up big stories dealing with diesel cars. The Blutec is due to hit 45 states this month or the first of November in not just the E class but the ML, R & GL. I will be looking at buying a GL 320 CDI very shortly for my home in Hawaii. I can get biodiesel there as well and MB of Honolulu has certified Pacific Biodiesels B100 for use in their diesel vehicles. The hybrids days in the limelight are numbered and I know it is hard for someone that has campaigned for the technology to accept a loss. Hybrids just cannot compete with diesel for economy and soon 50 state emissions compliance.
One other thing you have made rash statements about diesel. You have not shown ANY documentation of pollution scores burning ULSD.
It's the "cleanest diesel engine in the world" right? But it cannot get 50-state approval?
What more proof do you need of the state of diesels in 2006?
-end
Blutec with the use of urea already meets 50 state emissions regulations. The emissions levels already meet 2006, 2007, 2008 requirements. The method to deliver the urea to the catalyst is the only portion of the system that is not yet approved. EPA's position "The EPA's Oge says that while the agency has been leery of emissions systems that require maintenance, it will back Mercedes' approach" is favorable.
What proof do I need? None. The proof will arrive in 2008 and 2009 from Honda, Mercedes, VW, Chrysler, BMW, and Subaru.
As has been said ... you don't have to wait. The MB is the real deal. You just need to keep the urea tank full, that's all. Small inconvenience to pay, IMHO.
personally, I'll be looking at the R320cdi to replace the wife's Pacifica when her lease is up in 23 months.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I agree they can shut down the system the way the hybrids do if they are not running clean. Heck the Prius shuts off if you don't put the gas cap on tight. Or when your bladder is full, or is that empty.
I know you are a stubborn old coot (and I mean that in the nicest way) and I am also.
But one point you keep harping on is this one:
"there have been no EPA pollution scores with the new diesels burning ULSD"
And yes, that's true. But do you know WHY that is true?
Because the cars FIRST have to be certified CLEAN ENOUGH TO BE SOLD IN THE USA before the EPA tests the emissions.
Once we get "clean diesels" certified for 50-state sale, in 2008, then we can get those precious EPA pollution scores.
And the TCH Is Indeed an AT-PZEV car. How many more articles do you need me to post to prove it? All of them have the same engine code, and the AT-PZEVs are sold in Arizona. Mine has the clean engine code.
And you are correct about the 45-state BlueTec:
•DaimlerChrysler (DCX). The current Mercedes-Benz E320 CDI diesel sedan will be replaced by the $52,325 E320 Bluetec, which launches Oct. 16. The Bluetec has the same engine but adds a particulate filter and other exhaust features that clean the emissions. At the same time, Mercedes is launching diesel versions of the M- and R-Class SUVs. The GL SUV will follow later this year. All are limited to sale in 45 states.
But I am correct when I say 2008 will be the year Diesel cars hit the primetime:
In 2008, Mercedes plans diesel versions of the M- and R-Classes and GL that will include urea injection and can be sold in all states.
I'm looking at the EPA site. It says the 2007 TCH is only rated 8 bin3 in 45 states. It does have the same number as the Sulev CARB version. If you are right then how can VW with the 2007 Jetta get a 9.5 in all 50 states and the TCH cannot. I don't make the rules you do. You want my diesels to be SULEV I want your TCH to be that also. Not just when you are visiting CA.
My hope is that the R-class will get about 21/28 epa. I base this on the fact that the E350 to the E320cdi sees a 33% improvement in mileage. Since the R350 gets 16/21 ....
Of course, with the dismal projections for the Grand Cherokee using the same engine, I may be setting myself up for disappointment.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
:P
(urea being dried piss, of course)
Mopar, what do you know of Subaru offering a diesel? Will it be in the Legacy? Might just prove to be an alternative to the VW.
Supporters are now saying "proof will arrive in 2008 and 2009". What does that actually mean?
The next generation hybrid system from Toyota will be available then. Prices are expected to drop while at the same time efficiency improve. How will the upcoming diesels be able to compete with that?
JOHN
Easy, diesels will be in cars that handle good. Unlike the Prius that cannot travel a straight line down the highway at conventional highway speeds.
Just as a note. Your lack of knowledge about meeting CARB emissions was noted. The issue is not meeting the emissions it is continuous supply of urea to maintain NOx levels.
Typical misinformation spread by those with opposing agenda.
SULEV and PZEV are standard emission ratings, regardless of how hard you fight to dismiss them. And diesel systems still do not deliver either yet.
As for the attack on Prius (which is clearly misinformation), it has absolutely nothing to do with HSD... which is now available in Camry, Highlander, and Estima. That's what diesels will be competing with.
JOHN
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
It does have to do with the best selling HSD from Toyota. They are fine for city commutes.
Would you like to give us your data concerning the Blutec diesel NOT being able to meet the emissions? It was not the emissions, it was the ability to maintain those emissions. Same as if you drive a Prius with a bad catalytic convertor. Which we all know they don't last long and cost an arm and a leg to replace.
The Blutec diesel WILL be legal and available in your state along with 44 other states, NEXT week. That should be a good start. It only takes 7500 miles of driving before they are legal in CA and the other CARB states. Just more money for the entrepreneur.
First, the scope will be tiny. Mercedes has only a very small share of the market. There simply won't be enough diesel vehicles for sale with Blutec to make any impact for quite awhile. So the impression that this will be an overnight success has no merit. It will take many years.
Second, the Blutec technology only provides the minimum step forward... enough to barely qualify the vehicles for legal sale. That doesn't provide any smog-related emission benefit whatsoever. All it does is clean up diesel enough to compete with the dirty gas vehicles. How are they going to compete with the dramatically cleaner gas vehicles, the ones earning SULEV and PZEV ratings?
Third, pretending that the improved diesel systems won't be competing with the next generation of hybrid is disingenuous, at best. Toyota will already builds a Hatchback, Sedan, SUV, and a Minivan with HSD. They say that reduced prices and increased models to choose from are on the way. GM, DC, and BMW will be offering two "full" hybrids of there own. Ford already does offer a "full" hybrid and there are rumors of another in the works. Nissan will join in next year, initially with HSD then switching to their own design later on. Honda obviously has hybrids too. What would compel someone to purchase a diesel with so many hybrid choices available?
Fourth, next year Prius will be celebrating its 10th birthday. The misconceptions about component failure and replacement need don't hold much weight anymore. There are so many owners now exceeding the disbelief threshold that additional proof isn't wondered about anymore. Those questions have been answered. Doubt is rapidly fading.
The hype about Blutec is currently just that, hype. When you go for a drive, you spot hybrids sharing the roads already. Whether or not the clean diesel becomes a reality or vaporware depends on its ability to compete, not just meet minimum criteria. So, say what you want. It's how consumers vote with their wallets & purses that actually makes a difference.
JOHN
I think all you have to do is to evaluate the Prius engine 1.5 L engine sans the HCD portion. Of course if that is done, the 1.5 L engine might indeed be found wanting.
It probably will not be substantially better (emissions wise) than the engine that powers Toyota's economy car, the Corolla. You might want to see the government web site that actually rates the Corolla. The truth is there is also no diesel hybrid. So the real key is what would the diesels be with being up to 20% OFF; just as the gasser engine is up to 20% off with the HCD!!??
The total passenger vehicle fleet, despite the (as you say )Prius (etc, also Civic hybrid) being 10 years old is less than 1% (.005%). At that growth rate (to say 12% of the passenger vehicle fleet) the same as SUV's in the passenger vehicle fleet) It will take 200 yrs.
The diesel portion is 2.9%.!!! To grow to the same size as diesels in the passenger vehicle fleet (at the historic growth rate) it would take 58 years!!!!!
So if less than 1% (.005%) is greater than 2.9% I would agree with you. Other wise you are blowing smoke, aka SPINNING.