Hybrids & Diesels - Deals or Duds?

kdhspyder

All Toyota's, every one of them, is 6 mo's / 5000 mi. At certain stores they are free forever.

ruking1

Thanks for the reply. The local Toyota dealer charges 29-35 per oil change. When I got my Honda Civic, the local Honda dealer tried to get me on a (discounted) 25 per change 5k OCI.

kdhspyder

My money says that Toyota will use Cummins diesel.

It's all but agreed but think of a house pet with a famous yellow color.

kdhspyder

At our 9 stores, all models, the oil and filters are free for life.
Chevy
Toyota ( 2 )
Acura
Hyundai ( 2 )
Mazda
Isuzu
Dodge

ruking1

WOW! my Jetta TDI would be a MONSTER with HALF the hp and HALF the torque!!!! (175/325) AND get (guessing) 40 mpg!!!

ruking1

If I read you correctly you are associated with an "umbrella" dealership!? Pretty sweet deal free for lifetime oil and filter change!! I don't know of a single one out here in the west that does that!!

gagrice

The GMC dealer I bought my hybrid Sierra from sent me a coupon for free oil & filter change. I only have 5600 miles in 15 months, so have not done my second oil change. I have never paid over $25 at a Chevy dealer for oil change. The Passat TDI was $50 at the dealer.

I think your dealership policy is a good one. It gets the customer back in on a regular basis to drool over the latest vehicles. Makes it easier selling a second and third time.

elias

hi gbrozen.
no, my desire to not deal with an extra maintenance item is not the sole criterion for me calling that item a "ridiculous hack".
and as for not owning euro cars, thanks for the suggestion but i respectfully ignore that advice. i euro cars and own three currently and have owned about 7 over the last 3 decades.
and YES i agree with you that my complaints involve CARB. i don't necessarily care whose fault it is - all i'm talking about is voting with my wallet - and i vote against the "urea hack". i'd probably go back to gassers before considering a car with urea hack.

elias

kdhspyder, i think you bring up a bunch of things which are independent of my point. drag has nothing to do with my point, nor does the exact highway speed. i claim that if you rip out all the electronics/batteries from the prius and reprogram the computer to deal with the absence of that stuff, the vehicle would get BETTER MPG at any steady-state highway speed, 60 mph, 70 mph, 100 mph, whatever.
ruking you claim 45 to 50 mpg in a prius at 85 to 90 mph steady-state. i'm skeptical but even so, my point is if you rip out the batteries and electric motors, your mpg will increase slightly at steady-state 90 mph!
in a response to another one of your postings kdhspidey, i do like the idea of burning biodiesel and thus indirectly causing other countries to import less oil from middle east. (surely you are aware that USA does not import much oil from middle east - and that it mostly doesn't matter where it comes from - because oil is a "global market").

elias

gagrice-inator, if the cat-conv fails in my TDI i won't find out about it because there are no mandated inspection-emissions-checks for diesel vehicles in my state, or any of the states near here. does your state mandate such testing for diesels? i think most don't!
i think the point that a "diesel hater" made about catalytic-converters being "consumable" is specious. comparing a cat-conv that lasts hundreds of thousands of miles with a urea-canister that lasts 7500 miles is not a reasonable comparison.
btw, why do you say that prius is exempt from smog-check? it's a gasser, so how can it be exempt? maybe it requires a dynamometer test - and not all states have such rigorous dynamometer emissions tests for gassers?

elias

john1701a, congrats for your 60 mpg prius in suburban driving. we can all vote with our wallets, and you voted prius! vote early and often! personally i'm happy with 40 or 45 mpg from our TDIs - last year we drove at least 70,000 miles, mostly highway. it saves us from putting miles on our ~20 mpg gassers.
re my point about "prius minus batteries & electric motors", you seem to have missed it completely. i'm not comparing your prius with my TDI. i'm comparing your prius with a theoretical prius that has batteries/electrics removed and suitable ECM reprogramming. that "theoretical prius" should get better highway mpg than your real prius!

kdhspyder

kdhspyder, i think you bring up a bunch of things which are independent of my point. drag has nothing to do with my point, nor does the exact highway speed. i claim that if you rip out all the electronics/batteries from the prius and reprogram the computer to deal with the absence of that stuff, the vehicle would get BETTER MPG at any steady-state highway speed, 60 mph, 70 mph, 100 mph, whatever.

This is essentially what Toyota has done in it's HSD vehicles by tuning the engine to an Atkinson cycle and allowing it to run at highways speeds at ~950 rpm's. In comparison to other gassers which turn at 1800-2000 rpms this in of itself saves about 35% in fuel all day long, everyday, every mile.

The problem with this solution alone, which is what I believe you are suggesting, is that such an engine is a dog with no torque and as such is unsalable. It's made simply to cruise at the most efficient mode for a gasser....but how do you get up to cruising speed?

The electric motor addition is what makes the HSD so ingenious since e-motors have relatively huge instantaneous torque ( ICE V8 torque ) but only for a narrow range of rpm's ... like at start up or as a torque boost while cruising.

So taking away the motors and batteries would make the vehicle lighter and simpler but the commercial reality is that no one would buy it.

An added ( unforseen ? ) benefit to having the e-motors in play is the ability to cruise at low speeds on no fuel at all, using only the excess energy generated from the already detuned ICE and the saved kinetic energy from braking.

I am aware that oil is a fungible commodity. As a traded commodity the net result still is that 30-50% of all our funds used to purchase fuel end up back in the MidEast, often in hands that hate us.

gagrice

why do you say that prius is exempt from smog-check?

In CA all hybrids are exempt from the smog test as are diesels. I believe it has something to do with the test equipment not being able to deal with the auto start. That is one of the good things about my GMC Sierra Hybrid.

jonnycat26

personally i'm happy with 40 or 45 mpg from our TDIs - last year we drove at least 70,000 miles, mostly highway.

And keep in mind your TDI is about 600-800 pounds heavier than a Prius... which makes it's mileage even more incredible. If you threw another 600 pounds in my Prius, it wouldn't break 40mpg.

gagrice

So what you are saying is: with the CD of the Prius and a small TDI engine you would get better mileage than with the HSD? I would say a diesel Prius would get an easy 60 MPG hwy, and have better performance. Instead of wasting $12k on additional batteries that weight the Prius even further someone needs to pull out all that HSD & batteries and install a VW TDI with a DSG transmission. Diesel Prius even sounds better to me.

rockylee

German automaker hopes Bluetec sedan, SUVs will give hybrids a good run for green.

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061010/AUTO01/610100368/1148-

Rocky

P.S. Fintail, here might be the the new diesel craze, starting with MB A little more power and it would be very desirable IMHO.

qbrozen

If a urea refill costs $15, they'll look at it as a $300 expense over 150,000 miles.

I got news for ya, in some respects, diesels are generally more expensive to maintain than gassers ... in other respects, they are cheaper.

Look across the board at several cars from several manufacturers and you will find very different maintenance intervals and costs among just gas engines. SO... should we ban one vehicle because it requires 5k oil change intervals and 50k tune-ups compared to another that requires 10k/100k?

Your cat supposedly lasts 150k miles ... great. (by the way, if you want to know why this can't be guaranteed, we'll need to get into a long talk about how engines work and how they can often work improperly, causing a cat to clog up much sooner than that.) So now you have to replace it at 150k at quite a great expense. In that 150k miles, the typical driver will have spent $1500 on tires, $1200 on brakes, $500 on oil changes, maybe $800 for a major tuneup and timing belt change, and the list goes on and on. Do you really think $300 for urea is something to sweat??

and, again, if you insist folks would ignore their urea requirement while, at the same time, gasser owners are so incredibly diligent about all the other parts of their emissions systems, you live in your own biased little box.

qbrozen

a little more power? haha. are you serious? Is low 6-seconds to 60 mph in a 2-ton sedan really not good enough for ya?

rockylee

Not really, in todays world. Audi, has the best performing diesel IMHO.

Rocky

jonnycat26

So what you are saying is: with the CD of the Prius and a small TDI engine you would get better mileage than with the HSD?

I agree with you... with a TDI engine in the Prius 60hwy would be easily possible.

gagrice

A little more power and it would be very desirable IMHO.

I'm not sure what the 0-60 will be in the SUV diesels. The E320 CDI is in the 6 second range. It is faster than the gas version. The GL 320 CDI is on top of my future vehicle list right now. I expect with moderate 70 MPH cruising it will get over 30 MPG.

rockylee

It's underpowered IMHO. For the prices Mercedes charges you would think a bit more performance would come with it.

Just my $0.02

Rocky

winter2

I am from MD and find emissions testing somewhat of a farce. If the car or truck has OBDII, then the tester simply plugs in to the OBD connector looking for fault codes. If there are no fault codes, then you pass. I have seen gassers go through this testing without fault codes showing up but have significant soot emissions when driven off. They pass!

Diesel are not tested MD. The reason I was given is that the test equipment is not designed for them. Hybrids like the Prius are tested in MD and are not exempt.

ruking1

..."ruking you claim 45 to 50 mpg in a prius at 85 to 90 mph steady-state. i'm skeptical but even so, my point is if you rip out the batteries and electric motors, your mpg will increase slightly at steady-state 90 mph!"...

Perhaps in the banter between KDHSpyder and myself (our positions are well known to the other) I was NOT clear. I do get 45-50 in a 2003 VW JETTA TDI.

qbrozen

ummm... ok ... just which sedan will my local dealership have on hand with a diesel in it? I'll drive it and let you know.

seriously, low 6-secs in a midsize luxo cruiser is nothing to sneeze at. What exactly are you comparing it to? I'm sure they COULD make a bigger more powerful diesel, and they may, but then folks would be complaining about the mileage (me included). I'm quite happy to give up maybe 3 tenths of a second to my Accord to get mileage in the mid-30s and be driving a nice tank like the E-class.

rockylee

Well the Audi A8 is larger than the MB C class, and it has a 4.2 Turbodiesel V-8, gets 35 mpg hwy and will smoke the gas V-8 engine in a race which would at least put it in the mid 5 sec range (I assume) Angus McKenzie did a test in Europe with the diesel A8 last yr.

I'll take a Audi V-8 diesel over the MB's at this present time.

Rocky

john1701a

> Do you really think $300 for urea is something to sweat??

It's not an opinion. It's a cold, hard fact from actual market behavior.

People don't bother with synthetic oil, despite the benefits. The extra cost being about $300 over that same duration is something they'd prefer to save instead.

And by the way, the urea is likely to cost more than that. I was being generous by using a figure of only $15.

JOHN

rockylee

I'm not convinced synthetic oil is better for all motors as I've seen them ruin engines in the past.

Rocky

ruking1

..."And keep in mind your TDI is about 600-800 pounds heavier than a Prius... which makes it's mileage even more incredible. If you threw another 600 pounds in my Prius, it wouldn't break 40mpg"...

600-800 #'s extra would be the equivalent of 4 -5 (.33)EXTRA 150# people !!!!! So a more fair comparison would be a fully loaded Prius ( with 5/6 people) vs a TDI with driver only.

gagrice

I guess the wise money would buy a 45 state diesel before they add that urea crap. You can go drive one next week you lucky dog. They will be available in Minnesota.

ruking1

While I think I understand what you are trying to say, the statistics indicated both % and volume that more engines have been ruined using conventional oil than have ever used synthetic. Then of course the much more difficult correlation to prove is did the use of synthetic oil actually cause the engine to fail. The other question would be would the engine have failed anyway regardless of synthetic or conventional oil use.

ruking1

I would go this route if I had decided on a vehicle that had a urea stated option vs 45 state option. One factor that would make me chose the 45 state option (non) urea) is after 7500 miles you can register the vehicle in CA anyway.

jonnycat26

And by the way, the urea is likely to cost more than that. I was being generous by using a figure of only $15.

You still haven't stated your objections to a urea fill being included with oil changes...

qbrozen

comparing using synthetic oil vs conventional oil is nowhere near comparing the use of urea. (i'll put aside the fact that advantages have not been proven beyond any shadow of a doubt)

your comparison would have to be refilling urea vs never changing the oil. How many people do you know never change their oil in 150k miles? Those are the same folks that won't refill their urea canisters. But, how many of those who never change their oil would actually buy a $50k Benz? The answer you are looking for is Zero.

qbrozen

I'll go ask my dealer if I can test drive their diesel Audi A8, in that case.

oh ... wait ... that's right ... we live in the US.

In any case, I find those numbers hard to swallow ... but I suppose its possible ... we'll just have to wait and see ... if we ever get that car here.

By the way, you do know how much an A8 costs, don't you?? We're talking nearly 2 Benz E-classes!!

rockylee

I heard it's because the engines aren't set-up to run on synthetic because it's to slippery. I've heard this talked about with push-rod engines. Whether it's true or not, I'm not a engine engineer.

Rocky

gagrice

To me it would be the same as checking the brake fluid and differential levels. It is not a given that it will need filling. It has to do with the way the car is driven. As has been pointed out someone that buys a $50k car will take it into the dealer for service and that would be one of the levels checked. Pretty simple IMO.

rockylee

My point is that I'd love the Benz diesel if it was a little bit better of a performer. Maybe eventually if it proves popular we can have hp. wars with diesels that run on French Fry grease. Then we will have a obesity problem in this country. :P

Rocky

gagrice

I think the main reason most people would buy a diesel car is to save a little of our oil supply. Not see how fast they can get from one gas station to the next.

ruking1

Well for sure engines are speced for a specific oil for whole host of reasons.

As for the push rod engines The V8 Corvette engines have been running synthetic (Mobil One 5w30) for a very long time.

But since we are on the diesel portion, I would say WHATEVER ones choice it really starts with the oem recommendations.

qbrozen

right.

i mean, I love the benz as it is (wish i could afford $50k), but I would even be willing to give up a bit of its current power at get more like 40 mpg. Just keep the 0-60 under 7 secs and I think that's plenty in a car like that. If I want faster, that's when I'll look to diesel sportscars. Take that same engine and put it in a 3200 lb. 2-seater and now you're running with 350Zs and Boxsters ... while getting 45-50 mpg! Keep it under $35k and I think you got a winner!

rockylee

LOL, I like to save gas like the next person, but I don't want a "dog" for a engine. If I have to lose performance in a diesel, I'll take the hybrid instead. I can get "both" from them as Lexus, has proven.

Rocky

gagrice

Not sure which Lexus hybrid you are talking about. The RX400h gets about 25 MPG when driven like an old lady. The way you like to drive more like 19 MPG. The GS450h is lucky to crack 20 MPG. It is fast though. So if you want to go fast And get good mileage the diesel is a better bet.

rockylee

What ? That is incorrect gagrice. With all do respect the GS 450h combined fuel economy is in the high 20's the LS 600h L I believe has a combined mpg of mid 20's.

The diesels are nice, but don't even come close to the performance and fuel economy of Lexus hybrids, except for maybe Audi.

Rocky :P

goodcrd

Yo Rocky. You need to drive a common rail diesel. The lexus is just an overpriced Toyota. If you want a true off road suv then the Jeep CRD 4x4 suvs are all around better. If you want an on road, awd suv to use as a status symbol the Lexus is you. Don't try to compare a girlie light duty lexus to a solid off road and heavy load towing capable vehicle which gets very good mpgs (24 to 30 mpgs). As for performance your misinformed.

qbrozen

you need to stop relying on manufacturers for their estimates.

Car and Driver reported a real-world average mileage of 20 mpg in their test of the GS450h over 650 miles.

For a lousy 7/10ths of a second (which, by the way, is the difference ONLY under the best conditions for the Lexus. catch it without a full charge and the Benz gets a heckuva lot closer, if not ahead of it), I'll take the Benz diesel and get 50-75% better mileage, thanks.

qbrozen

but I don't want a "dog" for a engine

wow! if low 6s in a 2-ton vehicle is a "dog" ... what exactly do you call an average engine??

rockylee

Yo Rocky. You need to drive a common rail diesel. The lexus is just an overpriced Toyota.

I wasn't comparing SUV's pal. We were talking cars.

If you want a true off road suv then the Jeep CRD 4x4 suvs are all around better.

I'd prefer a Hummer, since Jeep has lost it's credibility as a off-roader in my eyes. Land Rover, Toyota Land Cruiser, Hummer, MB G, are all "trail rated" better than those mexican made Jeep parts.

If you want an on road, awd suv to use as a status symbol the Lexus is you.

Lexus SUV's are as good if not better off roaders than anything Jeep makes today.

Don't try to compare a girlie light duty lexus to a solid off road and heavy load towing capable vehicle which gets very good mpgs (24 to 30 mpgs). As for performance your misinformed.

What heavy duty vehicle Jeep makes that you deem as HD ? :surprise: Are you kidding me ? Toyota FJ, puts the Jeep Cherokee to shame. :P The Commader as my Jeep loven buddy says is a Tuna flopping on the Beach.

Rocky

rockylee

MT, reported what I posted. Since I find MT, as more credible than C&D, I'll take there word over C&D.

Rocky

P.S. I'll take the Lexus, it's 50 state legal, keeps the air smelling fresh, and won't break down on me because it's a Toyota. Thanks :P

rockylee

wow! if low 6s in a 2-ton vehicle is a "dog" ... what exactly do you call an average engine??

For a mid $50K car "stripped" to run only in the low 6's is an embarrassment. Diesel or not I would expect a little more Engineering from the Germans. BTW- I've seen high 6's for the MB Diesel from several sources. C&D, must of fell asleep while testing it to get low 6's :P

Rocky