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all i've read up until now is that it is as fast or a bit faster than the E350, which is in the low-6s.
i can't seem to find this MT test of the gs450h you speak of. do you have a link to that one, too?
i don't know why you take any one magazine over the other, but that's certainly your perogative. If it were me and I sincerely cared about the car, I'd average them all.
Regardless, even if the GS achieved mid-20s, that's still a FAR CRY short of the diesel.
some people obviously are willing to give up some performance for some mileage. Some more than others (hence a Prius) and some a bit less (hence the E320).
And, as we've already established in other threads, your idea of "stripped" is absurdly skewed. You must never have had a vehicle without leather, power windows, power locks, power steering, power brakes, etc, etc, to think that the $50k Benz is anywhere near stripped.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
One of the core problems facing hybrids is the complexity of integrating two powertrains in one vehicle, leading to costs that he said cannot be fully passed on to customers.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Toyota and Honda seem to have gotten the jump on everyone else here and in Japan on hybrid vehicle acceptance so it makes sense that everyone else is exploring other options.
If the next Gen Prius really does get realworld 60-70 mpg at the same cost as now the other mfgrs are going to have to look at hybrids more closely.... or... come up with equally innovative diesel/fuel cell capabilities.
My guess is that Honda's simpler hybrid system is able to be cost effective now with just the volume from the HCH. I feel, don't have any facts to prove/disprove it, that Toyota's more expensive system needs a higher volume of sales such as 500,000 annually worldwide. This is certainly within reach but for Audi/VW (??), it's very doubtful that they could generate this type of volume. Hybrids development and vehicle cost would be too expensive to pass along to the Audi/VW buyers.
Rocky
P.S. I looked for the Lexus test in MT, and can't find it on the net. It was done about 6-8 months ago (I think) I also think I gave that magazine away to a friend at work since I was done with it.
That means urea refill will *NOT* coincide with oil changes, as others claimed it would.
JOHN
try again.
I'm not looking for fantasy-like anecdotal evidence here.
BESIDES, if you are able to get 20% over EPA highway in that car, then I'm willing to bet you'd get 20% over EPA in the benz, which means 43-44 mpg.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
That means urea refill will *NOT* coincide with oil changes, as others claimed it would. "...
JOHN
For the record, my post was taken COMPLETELY out of context. Indeed, in reference to MY OCI's, I have absolutely NO requirement for UREA refill AT ANY INTERVAL, nor did I make that (the urea) connection in any way shape or form. The implication was the contrast between a 5k and 25-30k OCI on a supposedly CLEAN hybrid and supposedly "DIRTY" diesel fuels.
hell, for all we know at this moment, I could put a 10-gallon fuel cell filled with urea in there and it would last the life of the car.
Urea use varies with how the car is driven .... dare I say it? .... just like the life of the catalytic converter! ;b
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Rocky
P.S. I don't doubt on a flat surface you could get 43-44 mpg in a Benz
And by the way, the urea is likely to cost more than that. I was being generous by using a figure of only $15.
JOHN -end
If cosumers will not pay $300 in extra cost for urea for a diesel then consumers have to be out of their minds to pay the hybrid premium. $4240 :surprise:
Hybrid Premium
So work on the next Prius has redoubled to slash R&D costs and halve Toyota's current hybrid differential of 500,000 yen (some $4,240) to compete :sick:
Why is everyone always focusing exclusively on Prius. That's weird knowing that it doesn't have a non-hybrid counterpart. But Camry-Hybrid does, so comparisons are far more appropriate. Yet, that reality is not acknowledged.
JOHN
In a purposeful daily commute and already getting (the real world) mileage (38-42 mpg) on a Honda Civic that a Camry hybrid has been shown to get: at 2x the price, it is a stretch ( makes no economic sense) to switch.
But heres to 2 dollar unleaded regular and diesel!!!!
REALLY REALLY CHEAP OIL (!? my sic) Christopher Helman
Forbes.com
http://biz.yahoo.com/special/allbiz101106_article2.html
http://biz.yahoo.com/special/allbiz101106.html
Sure John, the Camry Hybrid is extremely scary. OOOOHHHHH!
I do believe that the Jaycee's have Haunted Hybrid - Curse of the Camry this Haloween to scare the heck out of the diesel supporters.
$18,270 Camry CE
$25,900 Camry Hybrid
The only thing scary about the Camry Hybrid is it's price.
On a more serious note, the mouse fur upholstery of the Camry Hybrid is the the feature I most dislike about the Camry Hybrid. Change the cloth to material that is in the SE please! Or, put the hybrid powertrain in the Camry SE and it would be nearly perfect.
Given the choice, the Euro Accord Tourer with CTDi is a far superior vehicle to the Camry Hybrid. Perhaps in 2008-2009 I'll be able to make that choice.
Do all the diesel supporters here fear Camry-Hybrid that much?
If I were a Camry-Hybrid fanatic, I'd be more worried about the possibity of the Passat TDI being reintroduced, or even the Jetta TDI.
How the heck will a Camry Hybrid compete with a 60MPG highway Jetta?
i don't know what my accord gets in 6th gear on a flat surface, and i really don't care. It means absolutely nothing to me in the real-world of paying at the pump.
so the challenge still stands ... a luxo-sedan available this year that performs as well or better and gets a measurable and repeatable mid-30s mpg combined in the real-world.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Passat TDI = TCH
As currently built the Jetta is too small to compete with the Camry, Accord, Altima, Fusion.
The Jetta and Prius are almost exactly the same size, price, etc.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
We have had countless debates on the hybrid vs the non-hybrid Camry. I say it is a $10k premium while advocates say it is less. My contention being if you are worried about mileage you are going to buy the cheapest 4 cylinder Camry. Right today a comparably equipped XLE is about $5k less than a entry level Camry hybrid. They squeak, rattle, have cheap interior And you got no trunk left.
How's that for taking the pressure off the Prius?
That is about 2/3rds what they are advertised to get. Not a great deal for $50k. Nice car, not an SUV by any stretch of the imagination. Even Lexus says NO to off-road use.
On our V6 ICE Highlander a 15 mi RT from a cold start would get us about 15 mpg.
Forget what you might get, but give us an average MPG figure. I average between 30 and 35 MPG in my 05 Passat TDI.
Jimmy
It's not like if you buy the TCH you get "interior inferior" or something. Any Camry CE, LE, or XLE is just as likely to have a squeak or rattle as is a TCH, but I ain't got no squeaks or rattles in my TCH.
And my current tank, with short city commutes, is sitting at 40.1 MPG.
When I first checked the mpg on this vehicle, after I thought about it, I thought maybe I had looked at the average MPH instead of average MPG. So I re-checked. It was mpg all right. I take a look at it every couple of weeks to see if anything has changed. I have been checking now for about 7 months and no changes.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
That's not accurate. The reviews here are nearly universally positive with few if any reports of squeaks. The main negative comment is the small trunk.
BTW there is no way a comparably equipped XLE is $5000 less than a TCH, especially when you factor in some value for the increased power of the V6 performance. It's worth something, buyers typically pay upwards of $2000-$3000 for the better performance.
The difference is in the way the EPA does its testing. All its test are done with fully warmed up engines!!! The 'warm-up' penalty is eliminated. Thus anyone having a short commute say 5-10 miles will suffer a 20-40% loss in FE depending on the weather.
An Rx400h that 'should' get about 29 mpg in the City ( EPA ) will likely only get 22-23 mpg if the trips are short. It will be worse in cold weather.
Ditto a Camry 4c ICE which 'should' get 26 mpg ( EPA ) in City driving. It will likely obtain only 20-21 mpg on short trips.
The benefit of the HSD vehicles in City driving, with a fully warmed up ICE, is that for much of the driving beyond 15 min the engine is simply off - not burning any fuel at all.
Would like to touch emissions, something a few hybrid proponents harp on. Diesel are cleaner than hybrids when it comes to unburned HC and CO. This is a given. If it takes the use a urea solution to get them SULEV or PZEV so be it.
Lastly, I do not fear any Toyota hybrid. What I do fear is that I will laugh myself into a heart attack as Toyota recalls itself into oblivion.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Rocky
I own a jeep CRD which is much heavier then your TL and it gets me 26.5 MPGs combined. And the Benz which is a CRD will outclass your TL and get better mpgs. Guess how many gears the 5 spd jeep CRD really has. 1st, 2nd(prime), 2nd(alt), 3rd, 4th, 5th then Lockup. And 4X4 mag also placed it above your 50K Landrollover in their off road tests. Oh. I also forgot it's build in toledo Ohio by Americans workers getting better benefits then Acura/Honda pay their workers.
Rocky
Rocky
Faulty conclusion. My 30 mi commute into/out-of NYC for 20+ years took 45 min to 3 hours depending on conditions. I'd sure have liked to have had a Prius back then for that commute.
But yes for a short suburban commute of 5-10 min it's likely that one will not get the EPA ratings on a hybrid. But then neither will any diesel nor any other ICE vehicle get EPA ratings. However the HSD vehicle will still save the 'short commuter' 30-40% of his/her fuel bill every week, every month, every year.
It's not the vehicle. It's the commute and conditions that are most important.
So lets toss aside B/E, as a taxi cab by definition is a "FOR PROFIT" conveyance. So in the process of meeting the "NUT" the public benefit of required hybrid (if your premise be true) should be more than obvious; given the NYC Taxicab does an enormous % and street time "IDLING".
Now I have not been back in NYC for a number of years, (having lived in upstate NY) but how much (percentage) and how many of the Taxicab vehicle fleet are hybrids of ANY stripe?
Indeed this brings up a host of government "mismatch" situations. Example, I used to run a 24/7 operation literally a fighter pilot training airplane patch. We used to have vans that literally were on the flight line almost 24/7 and out of that time, probably idled 20 hours of 24 and actually moved app 4 hours. Does hybrid sound like a good application here?
That brings us back to the eternal debate. How long does it take to pay back the Hybrid Premium? I have no doubt that anyone with even the average CA 32 mile each way commute will be able to justify a Hybrid or a diesel. I don't think there is anyway you can justify the cost of a Hybrid with a 5-15 mile commute. Why not go for the luxury of an ES350 over a TCH. They are about at the same price break.
Hybrid owners care that they have a clean, fuel efficient, fairly luxury-appointed car that can hedge their bets on future gas prices.
As far as "justifying" a hybrid with a short 5-15 mile commute, I am a perfect example of that. I'm on Day 38 of my current gas tank in my TCH. If you don't think I'm getting good bang for my buck by spending about $38-$45 a month on gas, then you are mistaken.
Even with that fuel economy benefit, I have a car with a lot of bells and whistles - Bluetooth, dual-zone climate control, back seat A/C vents, 60/40 split rear seats, power driver seat, heated outside mirrors, CVT tranny, aluminum alloy wheels, ABS w/brake assist, 7 airbags including rear curtain and driver's knee airbags, tire pressure monitoring system, engine immobilizer anti-theft device, sound-dampening front windshield, silver grille w/chrome plated moldings, smart-ket system, 440 watt JBL stereo w/in-dash 6-cd changer, Homelink, auto-dimming rearview mirror, DRL w/off switch, and many more.
As far as I know, there is no other car in the USA which gives you all of that (plus lots more I left out) in a 5-passenger package, with 187 HP engine, plus a 39 MPG EPA average, for $25,930 out the door.
But wait, Kudos to you for only using 34 to 102 gals of fuel in a year! (@ your stated 39 miles per gal) The Honda Civic would use 34.7 to 104.2 gals under like conditions and the TCH costs almost 2x more.
True Story:
The second week after I bought my TCH I had a trip to Texas for my annual family reunion. When I got to my Granny's house and unloaded the trunk, I had about half a room of stuff piled up in her spare bedroom. I had left my Segway in the trunk, and when my Granny came outside to see the Segway, she noticed how much room the Segway took up in the trunk and said, "Lordy, I don't know how you got all that stuff in that trunk !!"
So the level of problem a smallish trunk can cause you just depends on if you know how to pack a trunk or not.
And believe me: I know how to pack a trunk. :shades:
My commute is about 10 miles a day during the school year and about 14 miles a day during the summer.
I need a nice big comfy car that does well on the highway because I take two 2,500 to 2,800 mile vacations to Texas per year. I suppose I could do with a Zap for my commute (if it had an A/C) and not own another car and just RENT a car for my two Texas trips.
Someone find me an electric car for $10K that has an air conditioner and I will sell my TCH. :shades:
Just my .02 cents, BUT, if all you need is a big trunk for those twice yearly trips, the Prius' other attributes are from total overkill to totally irrelevant.
You just need (roof) rack/s system or a small tow able trailer.
I am not sure what a ZAP Xebra is but I am guessing the care and feeding of a (any) second vehicle, not matter how efficient or best fit, makes not much sense.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
The scope of cynicism is pretty insignificant now. A great majority of the population is willing contribute a small amount of money toward the cleaner emission and oil-dependency concerns.
So it isn't really a matter of "if" at all, as the antagonists would lead you to believe. It is really "how much". So part of that premium is considered money well spent.
It's much like the supposed "complexity" issue. In reality, the only people that ever mention it when discussing "full" hybrids are those that endorse "assist" hybrids and diesels. Everyday consumers simply don't care. To them, even a traditional vehicle is too complex. So "more" to them isn't necessarily a bad thing. Instead, they are interested in whether or not the change will deliver an improvement. If so, they welcome it. "Full" hybrids have proven to fulfill that.
JOHN
Precisely the opposite of what naysayers claimed would happen actually is. Jobs are being created by the increase in hybrid popularity.
These are American workers building hybrids in their own country. Now the other automakers really have to struggle to catch up. They have officially been caught off guard by Japan for a second time in history. How's that saying go? Fool me once...
JOHN
I am not sure what thread you found " THOSE" naysayers who claim jobs would be lost by building hybrids?
Really it is not the building or lack there of, of hybrids per se, but the MARKET or growth of that market. So for example, FORD Escape hybrids are probably not creating jobs like the proverbial "hot cakes". Of course, if you compare it with the situation at some of the SUV lines, which are experiencing a slowdown in THAT marketplace..., you might have a case.
'Justifying' a hybrid is like 'justifying' field-level box seats vs centerfield bleacher seats. It's just a matter of preference.