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Hybrids & Diesels - Deals or Duds?

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Comments

  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    In San Diego, the land of 'money is no object' might have stripped TCH's in the $31K range but for the rest of the country all of them are around $26500. Loaded with Max features and full MSRP is just $30,600 +/-.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    If one is inclined to buy a hybrid, a $4,500-7,500 savings might be worth a plane flight to one of kdhspyder's dealership affiliations. :)

    Can one get a below invoice price on a 2006/2007 Honda Civic? :)
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    My Segway weighs 83 pounds and the upper handlebar shaft detaches from the base, thus it fits into the TCH trunk. Would be a problem for a LOT of trunks if it did not split into two pieces. The Segway would not fit into the trunk of my 2004 HCH, so I had to buy a hauler and a receiver hitch for that car.

    Didn't need a trunk almost twice the size, because I got everything I needed into my TCH trunk. Next time I'll take a picture of all the stuff staged beside the car and then inside the car so you can see, you doubting ThoMases. :shades:
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    What kind of mileage do you get on that segway and can you outrun a riding lawnmower?

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • jonnycat26jonnycat26 Member Posts: 101

    These are American workers building hybrids in their own country. Now the other automakers really have to struggle to catch up. They have officially been caught off guard by Japan for a second time in history. How's that saying go? Fool me once...


    I'm sure both you and I will be much happier when the Aura hybrid goes into production (very soon now) and goes on sale in January/Feb so even more American workers will be building hybrids, right?

    Or do you just have a Toyota agenda?
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    Since I have answered that question for you directly already, as well as provide proof, you either have a bad memory (which explains a lot) or disingenious intentions. Nonetheless:

    "Full" hybrids have always has my endorsement. So when Ford introduced their design, I was totally behind them... eliminating all doubt that I was Toyota only. If GM also delivers *BOTH* reduced emissions & consumption with their upcoming "full" hybrid, they get my endorsement too.

    The point is they must actually deliver. Token quantities don't account for much. For example, Prius is Toyota's third best selling car. Volume is definitely high with respect to their other offerings.

    JOHN
  • jonnycat26jonnycat26 Member Posts: 101

    "Full" hybrids have always has my endorsement. So when Ford introduced their design, I was totally behind them... eliminating all doubt that I was Toyota only. If GM also delivers *BOTH* reduced emissions & consumption with their upcoming "full" hybrid, they get my endorsement too


    This is what I don't get John. And I would love to know why you don't like mild hybrids when they also are quite capable of delivering both reduced emissions and consumption. As are diesels. So why the bigotry towards those designs?

    And, FWIW, your endorsement is just that... your endorsement. I don't think it matters all that much to the world in general.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    I was really happy to find out the TCH trunk was large enough for my Segway. Although I am considering buying a receiver hitch for the TCH so I can haul the Segway more easily - lifting it back and forth over the bumper and trunk lip is getting tough on my old back. :sick:

    PS. The Segway costs 11 cents to charge it and for that I get 21 miles of riding. At $2 gas, that's the gasoline equivalent of 382 miles per gallon. At $3 gas, that's the equivalent of 572 miles per gallon. And yes it will outrun a riding lawnmower, unless said mower goes faster than 12.5 miles per hour. :shades:
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    SSSWWWEEEEEEEEEEETTT!!!

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > I would love to know why you don't like mild hybrids when they also are quite capable of delivering both reduced emissions and consumption.

    Simple. They're a dead-end, just like non-hybrid diesels. Why invest in a technology that cannot be easily be augmented?

    Both the Toyota & Ford "full" hybrid designs can easily be upgraded to utilize a better battery and support a plug. The same (hopefully) will be true of the "full" from GM as well.

    That just plain is not the case for "assist" hybrids. The motor/electrical system was not designed to provide continuous use. They only briefly assist. So augmentation cannot be supported.

    In other words, they are a short-term solution at best. They earn a grade of B, because they do indeed achieve reduction goals. But they are not capable of an A, since the design lacks some abilities that the other design offers.

    We all know how painfully slow the automakers accept change. Being stuck with a design that cannot be upgraded easily is a poor business & economic plan, in addition to being a less desireable consumer product. Consider the aftermarket & resale values years later...

    JOHN
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Prius is Toyota's third best selling car. Volume is definitely high with respect to their other offerings.

    Unless you consider the RAV4 and Highlander just tall cars as I do. The Prius is actually about the 10th best selling vehicle in the Toyota line up. A wee bit of Green from the folks at Toyota. Just enough to keep the EPA off their tail. I don't think you will ever come to the realization that Toyota is only building the hybrids as a counter balance to selling gas guzzling smog spewing behemoths. Did I add they are going to sell a fire breathing diesel truck to compete this year also. I think they could see that a Tundra hybrid would not be worth much and wanted a truck that is competitive in the real world.
  • jonnycat26jonnycat26 Member Posts: 101


    Both the Toyota & Ford "full" hybrid designs can easily be upgraded to utilize a better battery and support a plug. The same (hopefully) will be true of the "full" from GM as well.


    And great... If I plug in my Prius I can go 2 miles, maybe, with the battery pack that's in the car. If I feel like adding (at the very minimum) 5 grand worth of batteries, ditching my trunk space, and voiding not only the warranty (both the B2B and the 150K PZEV warranty) I can go maybe 80 miles. At under 42 mph. Which is fantastic if I'm delivering newspapers. Not so great if I'm the average commuter.

    We all know how painfully slow the automakers accept change. Being stuck with a design that cannot be upgraded easily is a poor business & economic plan, in addition to being a less desireable consumer product. Consider the aftermarket & resale values years later...


    Do you honestly see people 'modding' their hybrids? If so, wow. Obviously you don't realize the implication of warranties, trunk space, the reluctance of people to change their cars. I mean, come on... if I convert my Prius to a plug in, who's going to service it? Certainly not Toyota.

    And don't dare suggest Toyota will ever offer a kit to turn my Prius into a plugin hybrid. They'll never, ever do such a thing. They'd much rather sell me a new hybrid down the road.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Cummins investing 250 million dollars and adding 800-900 jobs in Columbus, IN to manufacture light duty diesel engines for Dodge.

    Toyota invests 10 million dollars and uses current workforce to assemble Camry Hybrid in Georgetown.

    Camry-Hybrid production in the United States began today.

    Precisely the opposite of what naysayers claimed would happen actually is. Jobs are being created by the increase in hybrid popularity.

    These are American workers building hybrids in their own country. Now the other automakers really have to struggle to catch up. They have officially been caught off guard by Japan for a second time in history. How's that saying go? Fool me once...

    JOHN


    Diesel is creating more jobs than hybrids are. Since you for some strange reason choose to try to shift the discussion away from the DUD factor of Hybrids which is the cost and complexity, and the "hybrid welfare" tax incentives.

    Yes John, irregardless of your attempt to convince us that hybrids are less complex, they in reality are more complex to manufacture and they are more complex to service if a problem arises.

    It is a positive development that Toyota is assembling the Camry Hybrid in Georgetown even if Toyota is importing the majority of the hybrid components. At least the combustion engine portion is manufactured in USA.

    Also, in the event you are unaware, Toyota ALREADY manufactures the majority of the Toyota's sold in North America in North America. Toyota Georgetown is over 20 years old...
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    The "hybrid premium" is not an issue for most buyers - just the cynical ones. :sick: :confuse:

    Hybrids constitute less than 2% of the market.

    The hybrid premium is only an issue for 98% of buyers.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > They'd much rather sell me a new hybrid down the road.

    And that new hybrid will provide a plug option, hence the good business model... a plan to move forward with.

    Now explain the reasoning for your intense support of "assist" hybrids.

    JOHN
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    quote john-Being stuck with a design that cannot be upgraded easily is a poor business & economic plan-end

    Here is what one automobile manufacturer has to say about the business & economic plan of hybrids "They make a nice story, but they're not a good business story yet because the value is lower than their costs."

    The restrained rollout of the Altima Hybrid reflects Ghosn's skepticism over the viability of the hybrid as a solution.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    quote john- hence the good business model... a plan to move forward with.-end

    Hybrids are such a great business model Toyota built an entirely new plant in Texas to build Tundra's. ;)

    Hmmmm......
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > Hybrids are such a great business model Toyota built an entirely new plant in Texas to build Tundra's.

    Where should they be planning to build the Tundra hybrid?

    JOHN
  • jonnycat26jonnycat26 Member Posts: 101

    Now explain the reasoning for your intense support of "assist" hybrids.


    Please keep in mind that I do own a Prius.

    That said, I find the fact that a IMA/BAS type hybrid can deliver the same efficiency and reduced pollution that a HSD hybrid can at a substantial cost savings. You certainly can't argue that point.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Toyota built an entirely new plant in Texas to build Tundra's

    Which I imagine a large portion will be DIESEL Tundras. The only plant that I have read about that was built just for the Prius or hybrids is a joint venture in China to build a whopping 3000 Prii per year. The truck plant in San Antonio has a capacity of 250,000 trucks per year. Tell me that hybrids are anything more than a carrot to appease the very vocal minority that think they are good for the environment.

    So the bottom line is the TCH is basically taking sales from the Camry pool. As the Camry has not made any big gains this year over the older better looking previous model. If it was a poor year all around you would not see the Corolla sales so hot.

    Then how can you trust Toyota to tell the truth about sales or anything else?

    TOKYO — Four Toyota sales subsidiary employees were arrested Tuesday on charges of inflating vehicle sales numbers in reports to the government, police said.

    Toyota Motor Corp. issued a public apology for the troubles its subsidiary had caused.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    This is a long running debate. The HCH has always given equal to the Prius Mileage. It just does it a different way. It also has better 50 state emissions than the Prius. Honda also has the GX that the EPA says is the CLEANEST car they have ever tested. To a died in the Wool Toyota fan that is hard to accept. I find the bias interesting. When the goal is supposed to be a cleaner environment. I would think you would hear applause for any advancement.
  • jonnycat26jonnycat26 Member Posts: 101
    To a died in the Wool Toyota fan that is hard to accept. I find the bias interesting. When the goal is supposed to be a cleaner environment. I would think you would hear applause for any advancement.

    There certainly seems to be a bias amongst certain Toyota supporters against anything non Toyota. IMA/BAS deliver the same efficiency and reduced pollution, but yet they're not as good or a dead end.

    I think the introduction of the Aura hybrid, which may well be the first 'fun to drive/economical' hybrid and the return of the newer more efficient and powerful TDIs will make next summer an interesting one.
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    I saw this article about hybrids. It puts a lot of questions out there about the future of hybrids.

    http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2006/10/hybrid_future.html
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Just a literal translation, but 70% of hybrids in the USA or 198,100/ 235,400,000 USA passenger vehicle fleet is .0008415 %. of the USA passenger vehicle fleet. Looks like even I have been exaggerating (for the sake of understanding in discussion), when I said less than a half of one percent !!!??? :):( But if I told you the real percentage number, it starts to get incomprehensible. :( Put in the passenger vehicle fleet of Europe and Japan and it sinks farther into the "incomprehensible" abyss.

    So for the good news. If hybrids keeps growing at 1.2% or 204,000 units per year, 17 M new units per year on a 235.4 M passenger vehicle fleet; to grow to the same 12% of the passenger vehicle fleet as for SUV's. (Keep in mind SUV's were seen for MANY years seen as exponential rodent growth) it will take 138.47 YEARS to be 28.248 M vehicles (or 12%) The bad news of course is in 138.47 YEARS, MOST of us will probably be DEAD. :(
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > I find the fact that a IMA/BAS type hybrid can deliver the same efficiency and reduced pollution that a HSD hybrid can at a substantial cost savings.

    That response explains a lot... focus only on a short-term solution... which is the very attitude that got Detroit into the mess it is in now.

    JOHN
  • jonnycat26jonnycat26 Member Posts: 101

    That response explains a lot... focus only on a short-term solution... which is the very attitude that got Detroit into the mess it is in now.


    And yet, HSD does nothing long term either. So it's a wash. Glad we agree. :)

    And actually, I take that back. IMA/BAS both do what HSD and GM's 2Mode system do: Provide a way to increase economy while reducing emissions. Neither is anything but a speedbump on the way to the future.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > And yet, HSD does nothing long term either. So it's a wash.

    Now I know your intentions are insincere. Geez! I just finished pointing out how the "full" hybrid designs (like HSD) can be augmented. That can be through either aftermarket or offered as an option for newer models. Whatever the method it can.

    And it has already been demonstrated several times. There are a few augmented Prius making the news on a regular basis. There is at least one Escape-Hybrid too.

    That is long-term, something that can extend well beyond the current offering with only minimum adjustments... a fact that is absolutely not true for "assist" hybrids.

    Stop with the greenwashing already. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME! One design supports augmenting, the other does not.

    JOHN
  • jonnycat26jonnycat26 Member Posts: 101

    Stop with the greenwashing already. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME! One design supports augmenting, the other does not.


    They are the same john. Until a manufacturer offers an 'augmented' prius or escape for sale, they're the same.

    And let's face it, Toyota is not going to. I know you're not a technical guy, but try to stay with me here. Could you imagine an augmented Prius? Absolutely no trunk space. Even worse handling due to the battery weight. And the cost would be staggering, unless Toyota wants to start selling hybrids at a loss again.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    THEY ARE NOT THE SAME! One design supports augmenting, the other does not.

    Pretty strong opinion.
    I don't see any basis to substantiate your claims. HSD in its current configuration Is barely 3 years old. The longevity is anything but proven. Where diesel drive trains have a great history of both saving fossil fuel and cutting GHG. The emissions that you constantly harp on are a direct result of the EPA not implementing controls on the fuel. Same excuse you used less than a year ago before gas was mandated to have less sulfur.

    Maybe HSD will prove its value in the long term. Only time will tell. Currently it has not proven to be any better than the hybrid system used by Honda. In fact on a price break HSD has a ways to go to catch up with Honda hybrids.

    Just because I like ice cream does not make it good for everyone. Same goes for hybrid cars.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    That's a very generic, very vague, un-investigated semi-opinion piece.

    Consumer Affairs has never been a website to put any kind of positive spin on Hybrids. They had several articles in the past which have highlited hybrid negatives like the Prius owner who was suing because of low mileage, and the Prius software-update stalling stories, and several articles about how hybrids take forever to "pay themselves off" (like ANY car ever pays itself off.)

    The future or hybrids is clear, at least for the next several years. There are 12 more hybrids to be on the US market by the end of model year 2008. Apparently car makers think people want them, because they are breaking their backs trying to build more of them quicker.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Gary says "current HSD is only 3 yrs old."

    Yes, technically, but the HSD system ITSELF was first put together in the labs in 1995. That's almost 12 years.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I can find several posts by prominent members of this forum that have said the current Prius is entirely different than the Prius Classic. This was in response to several issues with the original Prius. You cannot have it both ways. Technically hybrids are nearly 100 years old.

    As far as Consumer Affairs. It is their place in life to record the negatives encountered by the CONSUMER. The Prius has had more complaints than most cars in the same period of time. Most all those problems were legitimate. Some Toyota reluctantly addressed. The mileage disparity is finally going to be addressed by the EPA. I expect to hear some big screaming when those numbers come out.

    As an astute observer of this Forum you know that people that have problems with their cars do not always get a warm welcome. Especially in the hybrid forum.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    For as much fire as the EPA has drawn, the science side of me would like the EPA mileage rating system to remain the same. Regardless of what one thinks of the procedures used, the fact remains they are quantifiable, repeatable, etc etc.

    So for example, the 2003 VW TDI is rated at 42/49. Getting those fiqures is an absolute no brainer, can do easy. Indeed if one looks at the fine print on ANY new car sticker, the ranges are ALREADY posted. Again on the 2003 VW TDI the range posted is 11 and 52 mpg and 16 and 51 highway. So what further would for example a "so called" new EPA real world rating give? Well, ok, before and after staying at a Holiday Inn, I got 63 mpg!! ???? :) Actually I have done both, BUT they are NOT correlated!!?? :)
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Maybe HSD will prove its value in the long term. Only time will tell. Currently it has not proven to be any better than the hybrid system used by Honda. In fact on a price break HSD has a ways to go to catch up with Honda hybrids

    Not exactly...
    Honda's IMA is very well suited to lighter smaller vehicles. It has been proven not to be very capable or efficient for medium sized vehicles.

    Toyota's/Ford's 'full' hybrid system has been proven to be very capable and efficient for midsized vehicles. It has not yet, to my knowledge, been used in smaller vehicles but there is no reason why it would not also be very very efficient and hugely capable in a Corolla/Yaris for example. IMO the difference is cost. Putting the Toyota/Ford system into a lower priced vehicle is, at present, not cost effective.

    Barring some dramatic development by Honda they have already signalled their intentions and acknowledged the limitations of the IMA. The next developments from Honda will be diesel Ody's ( vs the Sienna hybrid ), MDX ( vs the Rx400h ) and Accord ( vs the TCH ).

    OTOH Honda has announced another, smaller than Civic, hybrid in the near future.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Original Japanese Prius in 1997 was HSD Generation One. The system was then called "Toyota Hybrid System" or THS.

    2004 Prius was HSD Generation Two. It was not a complete, from the ground up different system. The basic principles remained the same.

    I'm not sure when the HSD Generation Three came out, but I have read that the TCH is Generation Four.

    This is not a complete engineering redesign every generation. The basic system has remained the same for twelve years.

    See this page for the following quote:

    The basic design of the Toyota Hybrid System / Hybrid Synergy Drive has not changed since its introduction in the 1997 Japanese-market Toyota Prius, but there have been a number of refinements.

    The original Prius used shrink-wrapped 1.2 volt D cells; all subsequent THS/HSD vehicles have used custom 7.2 V battery modules mounted in a carrier. There has been a continuous, gradual improvement in specific capacity.

    The Toyota Hybrid System relied on the voltage of the battery pack — between 276 and 288 V. The Hybrid Synergy Drive adds a DC–DC converter boosting the potential of the battery to 500 V or more. This allows smaller battery packs to be used, and more powerful motors.

    Although not part of the HSD as such, all HSD vehicles from the 2004 Prius onwards have been fitted with an electric air-conditioning compressor, instead of the conventional engine-driven type. This removes the need to continuously run the engine when cabin cooling is required.


    Toyota's HSD sytem
  • jonnycat26jonnycat26 Member Posts: 101
    Toyota's/Ford's 'full' hybrid system has been proven to be very capable and efficient for midsized vehicles. It has not yet, to my knowledge, been used in smaller vehicles but there is no reason why it would not also be very very efficient and hugely capable in a Corolla/Yaris for example. IMO the difference is cost.

    I think you're possibly overlooking something. How would HSD fit into a corolla? You'd lose a lot of the (already smallish) trunk space, and I doubt there is room under the hood. Toyota, after all, couldn't fit a 4 cylinder hybrid into the highlander because of space problems. You'd have to stretch the car somewhat, and at that point you're looking at a Camry/Prius sized vehicle.

    If anything it'd be much easier to fit Toyota's mild hybrid system (from the crown) under the hood of the Corolla.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Yep size is something I hadn't considered. It may be that the current HSD is too large for the narrower vehicles. It's pretty clear from announcements, or lack thereof, that Toyota is concentrating on midsized vehicles and Honda on the smaller vehicles. It appears to be a classic 'comparative advantage' situation.

    Will Toyota go to a 'mild' hybrid for it's smaller autos? Or a more compact HSD maybe from the Gen3 Prius? Or diesel for it's smaller autos?
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Across the segments, I would say the diesel has versatility. I have said more than once and on more than one hybrid/diesel related threads, the real European fuel sippers have been kept out of the USA markets. Now it is apparent to even the most casual and or uniformed that this has been a very long standing policy. Although widely known in circles that matter, it has only recently been mentioned or come to light that unleaded regular saved in Europe (by fully 50% of the passenger vehicle fleet being diesel AND GROWING) is sold (exported) to the USA for consumption. Again while I applaud the increase in gasser fuel mileage, it is very hard to ignore the 23% structural advantage of the higher % and of course volume of diesel vehicles. It is also becoming increasing harder to ignore the 37% diesel advantage over like for like gassers. It truly makes the call for increase fuel mileage disingenuous, when 23.4% AND 37% is consistently ignored and left at the table, so to speak. If European countries wish to keep the price of their fuel artificially high for their own internal consumption one point of view is that is their own business. But why should the price be kept artifically high in the USA?
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Pardon me, but you can augment ANYTHING if you replace it with a new model. DOH!!

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    The mileage disparity is finally going to be addressed by the EPA. I expect to hear some big screaming when those numbers come out.

    Actually it will have no effect whatsoever even if the EPA numbers do change. I will still average 48.6 mpg. What the EPA states changes nothing. The GH database will change not a single bit. Those that do buy the Gen2 Prius will still get 45-50 mpg on an annual basis.

    BUT...

    If the Gen3 comes out at about the same time and the new EPA regs are in place and the new Prius attains 55-65 mpg on an annual basis using the new more difficult test methods, while all other 'normal' vehicles go down 10-20%, ..WOW what a coup in terms of timing.

    Speaking of timing...all during the year fuel prices have been a huge source of concern for everyone. Possibly the more severely affected have been the detroiters who are so heavily reliant on trucks and SUV's to stay afloat. The three of them have been especially hard hit in sales with $3.00+/Gal fuel.

    Toyota has a $Billion investment/risk coming up in Jan...... and fuel prices are falling like a rock. Hellooo conspiracy theorists. :surprise:

    The Gen3 Prius and the new EPA regs will be another instance of 'fortuitous timing'.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Just for the sake of argument. Say the EPA tests like CR and say the rating for the new hybrid is 35 MPG combined. That is when you will see some crying on this forum. If they test the Prius like the average Joe drives they will not get 48 MPG combined.

    I have no idea how they will test so it is a waiting game.
  • jonnycat26jonnycat26 Member Posts: 101

    If the Gen3 comes out at about the same time and the new EPA regs are in place and the new Prius attains 55-65 mpg on an annual basis using the new more difficult test methods, while all other 'normal' vehicles go down 10-20%, ..WOW what a coup in terms of timing.


    Another interesting thing to ponder is, if the Gen3 prius is plug in, how will the EPA rate it? Considering that it needs the grid to fully recharge itself, will the EPA take that into consideration, or will they rate it on what it can do *just* via gasoline and not with grid charging.

    IMO, they have to rate it *just* via gasoline. If someone's taking a cross country trip they're going to wonder why their promised 80mpg has turned into 47. Or at the very least, rate it with both on gas only and grid augmented figures.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    "I will still average 48.6 mpg."

    I will probably get 38-42 in a Honda Civic gasser and 48-52 in a VW TDI. This would not move this .02 opinion to a hybrid. Actually to get off dead center for a 138 year "oh and already" a 12% passenger vehicle fleet, they really have to quadruple the output of hybrids. This would put it in at 34.5 years!!! More importantly folks have got to buy it. With the inclusion of a so called "free" market diesel, my take is diesel will be the horse of choice just like Europe.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Actually I'd expect the new EPA numbers on the Gen2's to be something like 45 City and Highway. That's about a 25% revision of the City value and 10% revision of the Highway value. It's also in line with the GH database figures and my own experiences. YMMV of course. I would be exceeding the new EPA values by 9% on an annual basis. 30,000 mile summary

    The stated goal of the next Gen is a 20% increase in FE over the Gen2; i.e. back up to 55 mpg real world every day. YMMV of course.

    jonnycat brings up a good point how does EPA account for a 20 mi no-fuel trip. How is that to be shown on a window sticker? What if the vehicle is plugged in overnight and then while at work and is run on battery only for an entire year using less than a tank of gas over say 8000 miles? Complex.
  • jonnycat26jonnycat26 Member Posts: 101
    t how does EPA account for a 20 mi no-fuel trip. How is that to be shown on a window sticker? What if the vehicle is plugged in overnight and then while at work and is run on battery only for an entire year using less than a tank of gas over say 8000 miles? Complex.

    MPG is just what it means... Miles Per Gallon, which is how the EPA should rate it. I'm not saying that they shouldn't come up with new rating criteria, but if they're going to rate it via MPG they shouldn't take grid charging into account.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > I don't see any basis to substantiate your claims.

    So you don't understand why they are NOT THE SAME either. Ok. Here's some basics...

    ASSIST = There is a single small motor sharing the same shaft as the engine, resulting in the RPM of both components to always be identical. Neither can operate independently. Electricity can only be consumed or generated, not both at the same time (since there isn't a second motor). Electricity use is PASSIVE.

    FULL = There is one small motor and one very large motor. Each can operate independently and at different speeds & directions. Simultaneous consumption & generation of electricity is supported and frequent. This provides a tremendous amount of flexibility, allowing even the briefest of efficiency opportunities to be taken advantage of. Electricity use is PERSISTENT.

    It's pretty darn obvious that you-know-who simply isn't interested. He knows quite well that an "assist" hybrid can only assist. Being able to provide extended powerful electric drive simply isn't possible. The Civic-Hybrid only has a 15kW motor, which is just plain too small. The one in Prius is 50kW, and it has already been proven to fulfill that electric drive requirement by several aftermarket companies. Regulation of motor & battery heat has already been proven too. The ability to exploit the "full" hybrid design later is undeniable, making it a genuine long-term option.

    JOHN
  • jonnycat26jonnycat26 Member Posts: 101

    So you don't understand why they are NOT THE SAME either. Ok. Here's some basics...


    Does either one achieve any major efficiency gains over the other? It seems to me that both the HSD and BAS/IMA type hybrids both seem to add 20% or so to MPG totals.

    The BAS/IMA are simpler systems and cost about 1/4th the cost of HSD.

    Where's the benefit? And don't tell me the benefit is in plunking down 15K to 'augment' my Prius and void my warranty. With benefits like those... eeesh.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    Currently, HSD has a minor efficiency benefit overall and a more significant gain in suburb-type driving. With that same configuration, there is a major power advantage too.

    In the future, lower battery prices will give HSD an extremely significant efficiency gain. The design has already demonstrated that.

    JOHN
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > And don't tell me the benefit is in plunking down 15K to 'augment' my Prius and void my warranty.

    Clearly, you simply don't care. Over and over again I state how Toyota has built a design that they themselves can take advantage of later, in the long-term. That will have absolutely no effect on the warranty, since they would be offering the option. Geez!

    As for the 15K, that's not honest. Several aftermarket providers have quoted 12K initially with prices dropping in the next few years.

    Of course, your math has issues anyway. The current price difference is a little over $2000, not $6000. And it is expected to be even less in 2009.

    JOHN
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Yes, and in the future I might just grow wings and fly. The actual future for hybrids is very bleak. NOBODY but a few Americans have bought the things and I see them going the way of the buffalo very soon.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

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